Are Outside Developers Really Welcome?

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Are Outside Developers Really Welcome?

Gary Kopp
To XWiki SAS, and non-affiliated XWiki developers:

While XWiki meets the technical requirements of being "open source," so far
I have found it to be a bit "closed" in its pragmatic aspects. The
developers actually interacting in public on this list all seem to be
employees of the sponsors, and the communications seem to restrict
themselves to development going on internally. Over the last week or so,
questions coming in from "outsiders" (like myself) go unanswered. It's not
necessarily atypical for open source sponsors to be unresponsive to
outsiders, but the better open source projects still encourage the active
committers to provide some level of support for potential contributors.
Beyond that, when outside "hackers" (meant in a positive sense) are
tinkering with an open source project they typically do offer their own
contributions to questions raised on development mailing lists, in those
open source projects where such activity is possible and/or encouraged. I
see no evidence of outsider developers/hackers in the XWiki project.

What finally led me to write this e-mail is my inability to build XWiki from
source. I was initially encouraged by the presence of quite a bit of
information about building in the wiki documents. But when I actually tried
to put the instructions into practice I found them to be less than complete,
and unable to be followed to a successful conclusion (while the purpose of
this e-mail is not to get help with these problems, I will note that most of
my problems revolve around Maven). I have reached the conclusion that the
only people really able to build XWiki are its sponsors, using their own
procedures, and these procedures are _not_ those currently found on the
wiki. I hope I am wrong about this.

So, are outside developers encouraged to participate? Is any XWiki
development going on outside of the sponsoring organizations? If so, do
those developers find the current building documentation to be adequate, and
I'm simply not up to the task?

--Gary

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Re: Are Outside Developers Really Welcome?

Sergiu Dumitriu-2
On 07/23/2012 05:24 PM, Gary Kopp wrote:

> To XWiki SAS, and non-affiliated XWiki developers:
>
> While XWiki meets the technical requirements of being "open source," so far
> I have found it to be a bit "closed" in its pragmatic aspects. The
> developers actually interacting in public on this list all seem to be
> employees of the sponsors, and the communications seem to restrict
> themselves to development going on internally. Over the last week or so,
> questions coming in from "outsiders" (like myself) go unanswered. It's not
> necessarily atypical for open source sponsors to be unresponsive to
> outsiders, but the better open source projects still encourage the active
> committers to provide some level of support for potential contributors.
> Beyond that, when outside "hackers" (meant in a positive sense) are
> tinkering with an open source project they typically do offer their own
> contributions to questions raised on development mailing lists, in those
> open source projects where such activity is possible and/or encouraged. I
> see no evidence of outsider developers/hackers in the XWiki project.
>
> What finally led me to write this e-mail is my inability to build XWiki from
> source. I was initially encouraged by the presence of quite a bit of
> information about building in the wiki documents. But when I actually tried
> to put the instructions into practice I found them to be less than complete,
> and unable to be followed to a successful conclusion (while the purpose of
> this e-mail is not to get help with these problems, I will note that most of
> my problems revolve around Maven). I have reached the conclusion that the
> only people really able to build XWiki are its sponsors, using their own
> procedures, and these procedures are _not_ those currently found on the
> wiki. I hope I am wrong about this.
>
> So, are outside developers encouraged to participate? Is any XWiki
> development going on outside of the sponsoring organizations? If so, do
> those developers find the current building documentation to be adequate, and
> I'm simply not up to the task?
>
> --Gary

Hi Gary,

I'm going to start my answer with an excuse that covers most of the
points raised in your mail: for the past week and this one as well, the
XWiki SAS company is organizing an annual seminar for all its employees,
and everybody is rather busy with all the activities going on here,
including a hackaton that changes our priorities into getting a small
project done before the end of the week. So this period is not a very
good one to judge the interactions in the community.

Not all the committers are employees of XWiki SAS. It is true that the
largest share of contributions come from XWiki SAS personnel, but not
because we're doing closed source development out in the open just to
appear open source. The main reason is that whenever we find a talented
person sticking around, we usually try to keep that person's interest in
the project by employing him (I am such an example).

Another reason is that enterprise software communities have different
mechanics than user software like browsers or desktop applications. Most
of the users are employees of companies using XWiki internally, and
they're just trying to get some problems fixed. After their problems are
fixed, they go on with their main job. It is hard to get outside users
to stick around long enough to get really motivated into staying for the
long term. It happens in just two cases: When their company is using
XWiki not just as an internal wiki for their company, but as a platform
on which they build solutions for their own clients. And we have four
such committers. The second case is when they're true hackers that just
happened to get in touch with XWiki, and fell in love with it. I am such
a person, and Caleb is another.

If you check the mailing list activity on the long term, excluding the
past week, you will see that we try to answer as many questions as we
can, and that the non-committers also respond to questions that they can
answer.

As for "better open source projects", I for one strongly believe that
the XWiki community is one of the best open source communities in the
world, although rather on the small to medium size. But since I am an
XWiki SAS employee, feel free to doubt my opinion.


Now, about the build problem, most of the time it works, but we see from
time to time problems raised on the mailing list. Maven is supposed to
simplify things and to "just work", but a complex build configuration is
more likely to fail than a simple java library. Someone will come in and
help you, but don't count on too much interaction from the XWiki SAS
employees until the end of the week.

I hope that you'll give us a second chance.
--
Sergiu Dumitriu
http://purl.org/net/sergiu/


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Re: Are Outside Developers Really Welcome?

Paul Libbrecht-2
In reply to this post by Gary Kopp
Quickly: I am an outside developer, I have only contributed small patches here and there and our main platform, curriki.org, is heavily using XWiki.

It really often happens that many many things get answered but sure sometimes things fall through the cracks. The XWiki SAS team answers real well for many issues, others also answer fast. I try to help when I can and quite a few others as well. I am sorry I did not see your request but building is not really my expertise. I rarely had issues at building I must say.

There are encouragements to participate and these are basically at the level of fame and peer approval (being a mailing-list), and of course in terms of being helped quickly, e.g. that happened just now on #xwiki and the collaboration curriki xwiki is rather a fruitfui collaboration.

paul


Le 23 juil. 2012 à 23:24, Gary Kopp a écrit :

> Over the last week or so,
> questions coming in from "outsiders" (like myself) go unanswered. It's not
> necessarily atypical for open source sponsors to be unresponsive to
> outsiders, but the better open source projects still encourage the active
> committers to provide some level of support for potential contributors.

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Re: Are Outside Developers Really Welcome?

Gary Kopp
In reply to this post by Sergiu Dumitriu-2
Sergiu,

Thank you for the thoughtful, thorough, and reassuring response. I hope to
ultimately find myself in the category of a hacker that fell in love with
XWiki. I see a lot that interests me, and I see a lot of potential for
"useful hacking" and, ultimately, contributing. But I'm much too old to fall
into the category of someone eventually hired by XWiki SAS :-) That's not
part of my life plan, while XWiki still may be.

Before I ask for help in building XWiki next week I'll do my homework and
try to truly master Maven (and m2e).

--Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Sergiu Dumitriu
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 4:27 PM
To: XWiki Developers
Subject: Re: [xwiki-devs] Are Outside Developers Really Welcome?

On 07/23/2012 05:24 PM, Gary Kopp wrote:

> To XWiki SAS, and non-affiliated XWiki developers:
>
> While XWiki meets the technical requirements of being "open source,"
> so far I have found it to be a bit "closed" in its pragmatic aspects.
> The developers actually interacting in public on this list all seem to
> be employees of the sponsors, and the communications seem to restrict
> themselves to development going on internally. Over the last week or
> so, questions coming in from "outsiders" (like myself) go unanswered.
> It's not necessarily atypical for open source sponsors to be
> unresponsive to outsiders, but the better open source projects still
> encourage the active committers to provide some level of support for
potential contributors.
> Beyond that, when outside "hackers" (meant in a positive sense) are
> tinkering with an open source project they typically do offer their
> own contributions to questions raised on development mailing lists, in
> those open source projects where such activity is possible and/or
> encouraged. I see no evidence of outsider developers/hackers in the XWiki
project.

>
> What finally led me to write this e-mail is my inability to build
> XWiki from source. I was initially encouraged by the presence of quite
> a bit of information about building in the wiki documents. But when I
> actually tried to put the instructions into practice I found them to
> be less than complete, and unable to be followed to a successful
> conclusion (while the purpose of this e-mail is not to get help with
> these problems, I will note that most of my problems revolve around
> Maven). I have reached the conclusion that the only people really able
> to build XWiki are its sponsors, using their own procedures, and these
> procedures are _not_ those currently found on the wiki. I hope I am wrong
about this.
>
> So, are outside developers encouraged to participate? Is any XWiki
> development going on outside of the sponsoring organizations? If so,
> do those developers find the current building documentation to be
> adequate, and I'm simply not up to the task?
>
> --Gary

Hi Gary,

I'm going to start my answer with an excuse that covers most of the points
raised in your mail: for the past week and this one as well, the XWiki SAS
company is organizing an annual seminar for all its employees, and everybody
is rather busy with all the activities going on here, including a hackaton
that changes our priorities into getting a small project done before the end
of the week. So this period is not a very good one to judge the interactions
in the community.

Not all the committers are employees of XWiki SAS. It is true that the
largest share of contributions come from XWiki SAS personnel, but not
because we're doing closed source development out in the open just to appear
open source. The main reason is that whenever we find a talented person
sticking around, we usually try to keep that person's interest in the
project by employing him (I am such an example).

Another reason is that enterprise software communities have different
mechanics than user software like browsers or desktop applications. Most of
the users are employees of companies using XWiki internally, and they're
just trying to get some problems fixed. After their problems are fixed, they
go on with their main job. It is hard to get outside users to stick around
long enough to get really motivated into staying for the long term. It
happens in just two cases: When their company is using XWiki not just as an
internal wiki for their company, but as a platform on which they build
solutions for their own clients. And we have four such committers. The
second case is when they're true hackers that just happened to get in touch
with XWiki, and fell in love with it. I am such a person, and Caleb is
another.

If you check the mailing list activity on the long term, excluding the past
week, you will see that we try to answer as many questions as we can, and
that the non-committers also respond to questions that they can answer.

As for "better open source projects", I for one strongly believe that the
XWiki community is one of the best open source communities in the world,
although rather on the small to medium size. But since I am an XWiki SAS
employee, feel free to doubt my opinion.


Now, about the build problem, most of the time it works, but we see from
time to time problems raised on the mailing list. Maven is supposed to
simplify things and to "just work", but a complex build configuration is
more likely to fail than a simple java library. Someone will come in and
help you, but don't count on too much interaction from the XWiki SAS
employees until the end of the week.

I hope that you'll give us a second chance.
--
Sergiu Dumitriu
http://purl.org/net/sergiu/


_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

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Re: Are Outside Developers Really Welcome?

Ludovic Dubost
In reply to this post by Sergiu Dumitriu-2
+1 to all what Sergiu said.

Gary you are very welcome. Rest assured that XWiki is one of the most
open communities in the enterprise software world, and XWiki SAS is
committed to favor this.
If you want to know more about what we believe in you can checkout
these few blog posts:
http://www.xwiki.com/xwiki/bin/view/Blog/XWiki+%3A+Vision+Open+Source

Ludovic
XWiki SAS CEO

2012/7/23 Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]>:

> On 07/23/2012 05:24 PM, Gary Kopp wrote:
>>
>> To XWiki SAS, and non-affiliated XWiki developers:
>>
>> While XWiki meets the technical requirements of being "open source," so
>> far
>> I have found it to be a bit "closed" in its pragmatic aspects. The
>> developers actually interacting in public on this list all seem to be
>> employees of the sponsors, and the communications seem to restrict
>> themselves to development going on internally. Over the last week or so,
>> questions coming in from "outsiders" (like myself) go unanswered. It's not
>> necessarily atypical for open source sponsors to be unresponsive to
>> outsiders, but the better open source projects still encourage the active
>> committers to provide some level of support for potential contributors.
>> Beyond that, when outside "hackers" (meant in a positive sense) are
>> tinkering with an open source project they typically do offer their own
>> contributions to questions raised on development mailing lists, in those
>> open source projects where such activity is possible and/or encouraged. I
>> see no evidence of outsider developers/hackers in the XWiki project.
>>
>> What finally led me to write this e-mail is my inability to build XWiki
>> from
>> source. I was initially encouraged by the presence of quite a bit of
>> information about building in the wiki documents. But when I actually
>> tried
>> to put the instructions into practice I found them to be less than
>> complete,
>> and unable to be followed to a successful conclusion (while the purpose of
>> this e-mail is not to get help with these problems, I will note that most
>> of
>> my problems revolve around Maven). I have reached the conclusion that the
>> only people really able to build XWiki are its sponsors, using their own
>> procedures, and these procedures are _not_ those currently found on the
>> wiki. I hope I am wrong about this.
>>
>> So, are outside developers encouraged to participate? Is any XWiki
>> development going on outside of the sponsoring organizations? If so, do
>> those developers find the current building documentation to be adequate,
>> and
>> I'm simply not up to the task?
>>
>> --Gary
>
>
> Hi Gary,
>
> I'm going to start my answer with an excuse that covers most of the points
> raised in your mail: for the past week and this one as well, the XWiki SAS
> company is organizing an annual seminar for all its employees, and everybody
> is rather busy with all the activities going on here, including a hackaton
> that changes our priorities into getting a small project done before the end
> of the week. So this period is not a very good one to judge the interactions
> in the community.
>
> Not all the committers are employees of XWiki SAS. It is true that the
> largest share of contributions come from XWiki SAS personnel, but not
> because we're doing closed source development out in the open just to appear
> open source. The main reason is that whenever we find a talented person
> sticking around, we usually try to keep that person's interest in the
> project by employing him (I am such an example).
>
> Another reason is that enterprise software communities have different
> mechanics than user software like browsers or desktop applications. Most of
> the users are employees of companies using XWiki internally, and they're
> just trying to get some problems fixed. After their problems are fixed, they
> go on with their main job. It is hard to get outside users to stick around
> long enough to get really motivated into staying for the long term. It
> happens in just two cases: When their company is using XWiki not just as an
> internal wiki for their company, but as a platform on which they build
> solutions for their own clients. And we have four such committers. The
> second case is when they're true hackers that just happened to get in touch
> with XWiki, and fell in love with it. I am such a person, and Caleb is
> another.
>
> If you check the mailing list activity on the long term, excluding the past
> week, you will see that we try to answer as many questions as we can, and
> that the non-committers also respond to questions that they can answer.
>
> As for "better open source projects", I for one strongly believe that the
> XWiki community is one of the best open source communities in the world,
> although rather on the small to medium size. But since I am an XWiki SAS
> employee, feel free to doubt my opinion.
>
>
> Now, about the build problem, most of the time it works, but we see from
> time to time problems raised on the mailing list. Maven is supposed to
> simplify things and to "just work", but a complex build configuration is
> more likely to fail than a simple java library. Someone will come in and
> help you, but don't count on too much interaction from the XWiki SAS
> employees until the end of the week.
>
> I hope that you'll give us a second chance.
> --
> Sergiu Dumitriu
> http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs



--
Ludovic Dubost
Founder and CEO
Blog: http://blog.ludovic.org/
XWiki: http://www.xwiki.com
Skype: ldubost GTalk: ldubost
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Re: Are Outside Developers Really Welcome?

Denis Gervalle-2
In reply to this post by Sergiu Dumitriu-2
Hi Gary,

I would like to confirm Sergiu's message. Like him, I strongly believe that
the XWiki community is one the best open source communities, and that
participating to this project is really a pleasure for any serious java
developer. I have joined the small circle of committers a few years ago
after having used XWiki as a simple user for several years. The circle of
commiters is not small because we are not open, but it is small because the
requirements are high for truly participating to this project, and
therefore need a lot of personal involvement. I should even admit that I am
currently unable to participate as much as I would like, simply because I
am lacking time.

I really hope you will change your mind on this project, and maybe we will
have the occasion to work in an not too distant future to further improve
XWiki together...

--
Denis Gervalle
SOFTEC sa - CEO
eGuilde sarl - CTO

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 12:27 AM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 07/23/2012 05:24 PM, Gary Kopp wrote:
>
>> To XWiki SAS, and non-affiliated XWiki developers:
>>
>> While XWiki meets the technical requirements of being "open source," so
>> far
>> I have found it to be a bit "closed" in its pragmatic aspects. The
>> developers actually interacting in public on this list all seem to be
>> employees of the sponsors, and the communications seem to restrict
>> themselves to development going on internally. Over the last week or so,
>> questions coming in from "outsiders" (like myself) go unanswered. It's not
>> necessarily atypical for open source sponsors to be unresponsive to
>> outsiders, but the better open source projects still encourage the active
>> committers to provide some level of support for potential contributors.
>> Beyond that, when outside "hackers" (meant in a positive sense) are
>> tinkering with an open source project they typically do offer their own
>> contributions to questions raised on development mailing lists, in those
>> open source projects where such activity is possible and/or encouraged. I
>> see no evidence of outsider developers/hackers in the XWiki project.
>>
>> What finally led me to write this e-mail is my inability to build XWiki
>> from
>> source. I was initially encouraged by the presence of quite a bit of
>> information about building in the wiki documents. But when I actually
>> tried
>> to put the instructions into practice I found them to be less than
>> complete,
>> and unable to be followed to a successful conclusion (while the purpose of
>> this e-mail is not to get help with these problems, I will note that most
>> of
>> my problems revolve around Maven). I have reached the conclusion that the
>> only people really able to build XWiki are its sponsors, using their own
>> procedures, and these procedures are _not_ those currently found on the
>> wiki. I hope I am wrong about this.
>>
>> So, are outside developers encouraged to participate? Is any XWiki
>> development going on outside of the sponsoring organizations? If so, do
>> those developers find the current building documentation to be adequate,
>> and
>> I'm simply not up to the task?
>>
>> --Gary
>>
>
> Hi Gary,
>
> I'm going to start my answer with an excuse that covers most of the points
> raised in your mail: for the past week and this one as well, the XWiki SAS
> company is organizing an annual seminar for all its employees, and
> everybody is rather busy with all the activities going on here, including a
> hackaton that changes our priorities into getting a small project done
> before the end of the week. So this period is not a very good one to judge
> the interactions in the community.
>
> Not all the committers are employees of XWiki SAS. It is true that the
> largest share of contributions come from XWiki SAS personnel, but not
> because we're doing closed source development out in the open just to
> appear open source. The main reason is that whenever we find a talented
> person sticking around, we usually try to keep that person's interest in
> the project by employing him (I am such an example).
>
> Another reason is that enterprise software communities have different
> mechanics than user software like browsers or desktop applications. Most of
> the users are employees of companies using XWiki internally, and they're
> just trying to get some problems fixed. After their problems are fixed,
> they go on with their main job. It is hard to get outside users to stick
> around long enough to get really motivated into staying for the long term.
> It happens in just two cases: When their company is using XWiki not just as
> an internal wiki for their company, but as a platform on which they build
> solutions for their own clients. And we have four such committers. The
> second case is when they're true hackers that just happened to get in touch
> with XWiki, and fell in love with it. I am such a person, and Caleb is
> another.
>
> If you check the mailing list activity on the long term, excluding the
> past week, you will see that we try to answer as many questions as we can,
> and that the non-committers also respond to questions that they can answer.
>
> As for "better open source projects", I for one strongly believe that the
> XWiki community is one of the best open source communities in the world,
> although rather on the small to medium size. But since I am an XWiki SAS
> employee, feel free to doubt my opinion.
>
>
> Now, about the build problem, most of the time it works, but we see from
> time to time problems raised on the mailing list. Maven is supposed to
> simplify things and to "just work", but a complex build configuration is
> more likely to fail than a simple java library. Someone will come in and
> help you, but don't count on too much interaction from the XWiki SAS
> employees until the end of the week.
>
> I hope that you'll give us a second chance.
> --
> Sergiu Dumitriu
> http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
>
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/**mailman/listinfo/devs<http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs>
>
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Re: Are Outside Developers Really Welcome?

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by Gary Kopp
Hi Gary,

Since you're not the first one to ask I've created a FAQ entry about this:
http://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/FAQ/What+is+the+relationship+between+XWiki+SAS+and+the+XWiki+open+source+project

Hope you'll find the information you were looking for inside and that you'll be reassured that we are completely the opposite of what you initially thought (we strive very hard to NOT be a closed open source and make every effort to be what I call a "real open source project", i.e. a community-based open source project.

If you see any deviation from this please point them out. It seems to me that you confused the way we work with the fact that you didn't get any fast reply to your question and you jumped to a bit hasty conclusions ;)

Generally speaking (excluding the Seminar thing), the reasons people answer faster to some people than others:
* They know each other from their previous work in the community and thus have built respect and the person getting replied to has **contributed** back to the community thus establishing this level of intimacy/confidence
* They know the topic and can thus answer
* How the questions are phrased, how long the question is, and how easy they are to be answered
* ah yes… also… the phase of the moon… ;)

Thanks
-Vincent

On Jul 23, 2012, at 11:24 PM, Gary Kopp wrote:

> To XWiki SAS, and non-affiliated XWiki developers:
>
> While XWiki meets the technical requirements of being "open source," so far
> I have found it to be a bit "closed" in its pragmatic aspects. The
> developers actually interacting in public on this list all seem to be
> employees of the sponsors, and the communications seem to restrict
> themselves to development going on internally. Over the last week or so,
> questions coming in from "outsiders" (like myself) go unanswered. It's not
> necessarily atypical for open source sponsors to be unresponsive to
> outsiders, but the better open source projects still encourage the active
> committers to provide some level of support for potential contributors.
> Beyond that, when outside "hackers" (meant in a positive sense) are
> tinkering with an open source project they typically do offer their own
> contributions to questions raised on development mailing lists, in those
> open source projects where such activity is possible and/or encouraged. I
> see no evidence of outsider developers/hackers in the XWiki project.
>
> What finally led me to write this e-mail is my inability to build XWiki from
> source. I was initially encouraged by the presence of quite a bit of
> information about building in the wiki documents. But when I actually tried
> to put the instructions into practice I found them to be less than complete,
> and unable to be followed to a successful conclusion (while the purpose of
> this e-mail is not to get help with these problems, I will note that most of
> my problems revolve around Maven). I have reached the conclusion that the
> only people really able to build XWiki are its sponsors, using their own
> procedures, and these procedures are _not_ those currently found on the
> wiki. I hope I am wrong about this.
>
> So, are outside developers encouraged to participate? Is any XWiki
> development going on outside of the sponsoring organizations? If so, do
> those developers find the current building documentation to be adequate, and
> I'm simply not up to the task?
>
> --Gary
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Re: Are Outside Developers Really Welcome?

Gary Kopp
Vincent,

I freely admit that I did indeed form conclusions prematurely, complicated
by the happenstance that I picked precisely the wrong point in time to
evaluate the community (during your seminar). Given the responses on this
thread and the resources you have referenced I now find the XWiki project to
be extremely appealing from a developer's standpoint. I thank you, and the
others on this thread, for taking the time to straighten me out.

My current plan is to "give back" in some significant fashion. I am an
exception to your typical contributor, and this will hopefully work to the
community's benefit (but only time will tell). I am a "retired" software
engineer, and I am still driven to architect (my true speciality) and code
simply to exercise my mind and create things of "beauty." This is how I
choose to spend my retirement, and I have no other time-consuming
activities. So, being by nature obsessive-compulsive, immersive, and highly
productive, whatever "hobby" I pick (XWiki) will receive my
more-than-full-time attention, on a long term basis.

Of course, I have my own special areas of interest when it comes to XWiki,
even if they are not driven by currently recognized requirements. The one
that is foremost in my thinking at this time is semantic content. The good
news/bad news about this interest is that it will undoubtedly lead to
clashes with the current WikiModel. I see from your posts that you
personally see the model as the last (?) remaining core piece that needs
re-architecting. I will not presume to say that I can be of any help here,
but I will indeed be looking into it once I have completely absorbed the
existing architecture of the entire XWiki platform. But first I have to get
the darned system built :-)

--Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Vincent Massol
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:31 AM
To: XWiki Developers
Subject: Re: [xwiki-devs] Are Outside Developers Really Welcome?

Hi Gary,

Since you're not the first one to ask I've created a FAQ entry about this:
http://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/FAQ/What+is+the+relationship+between+XWi
ki+SAS+and+the+XWiki+open+source+project

Hope you'll find the information you were looking for inside and that you'll
be reassured that we are completely the opposite of what you initially
thought (we strive very hard to NOT be a closed open source and make every
effort to be what I call a "real open source project", i.e. a
community-based open source project.

If you see any deviation from this please point them out. It seems to me
that you confused the way we work with the fact that you didn't get any fast
reply to your question and you jumped to a bit hasty conclusions ;)

Generally speaking (excluding the Seminar thing), the reasons people answer
faster to some people than others:
* They know each other from their previous work in the community and thus
have built respect and the person getting replied to has **contributed**
back to the community thus establishing this level of intimacy/confidence
* They know the topic and can thus answer
* How the questions are phrased, how long the question is, and how easy they
are to be answered
* ah yes. also. the phase of the moon. ;)

Thanks
-Vincent

On Jul 23, 2012, at 11:24 PM, Gary Kopp wrote:

> To XWiki SAS, and non-affiliated XWiki developers:
>
> While XWiki meets the technical requirements of being "open source,"
> so far I have found it to be a bit "closed" in its pragmatic aspects.
> The developers actually interacting in public on this list all seem to
> be employees of the sponsors, and the communications seem to restrict
> themselves to development going on internally. Over the last week or
> so, questions coming in from "outsiders" (like myself) go unanswered.
> It's not necessarily atypical for open source sponsors to be
> unresponsive to outsiders, but the better open source projects still
> encourage the active committers to provide some level of support for
potential contributors.
> Beyond that, when outside "hackers" (meant in a positive sense) are
> tinkering with an open source project they typically do offer their
> own contributions to questions raised on development mailing lists, in
> those open source projects where such activity is possible and/or
> encouraged. I see no evidence of outsider developers/hackers in the XWiki
project.

>
> What finally led me to write this e-mail is my inability to build
> XWiki from source. I was initially encouraged by the presence of quite
> a bit of information about building in the wiki documents. But when I
> actually tried to put the instructions into practice I found them to
> be less than complete, and unable to be followed to a successful
> conclusion (while the purpose of this e-mail is not to get help with
> these problems, I will note that most of my problems revolve around
> Maven). I have reached the conclusion that the only people really able
> to build XWiki are its sponsors, using their own procedures, and these
> procedures are _not_ those currently found on the wiki. I hope I am wrong
about this.
>
> So, are outside developers encouraged to participate? Is any XWiki
> development going on outside of the sponsoring organizations? If so,
> do those developers find the current building documentation to be
> adequate, and I'm simply not up to the task?
>
> --Gary
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

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http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
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Re: Are Outside Developers Really Welcome?

vmassol
Administrator
Hey this is great!

Thanks for presenting what you'd like to do and your interests. That's very cool.

I really hope you like it here in this community :)

Most of us here also like to create "things of beauty" so you should feel at home!

Re the build what issue do you have?

Thanks
-Vincent

On Jul 24, 2012, at 3:17 PM, Gary Kopp wrote:

> Vincent,
>
> I freely admit that I did indeed form conclusions prematurely, complicated
> by the happenstance that I picked precisely the wrong point in time to
> evaluate the community (during your seminar). Given the responses on this
> thread and the resources you have referenced I now find the XWiki project to
> be extremely appealing from a developer's standpoint. I thank you, and the
> others on this thread, for taking the time to straighten me out.
>
> My current plan is to "give back" in some significant fashion. I am an
> exception to your typical contributor, and this will hopefully work to the
> community's benefit (but only time will tell). I am a "retired" software
> engineer, and I am still driven to architect (my true speciality) and code
> simply to exercise my mind and create things of "beauty." This is how I
> choose to spend my retirement, and I have no other time-consuming
> activities. So, being by nature obsessive-compulsive, immersive, and highly
> productive, whatever "hobby" I pick (XWiki) will receive my
> more-than-full-time attention, on a long term basis.
>
> Of course, I have my own special areas of interest when it comes to XWiki,
> even if they are not driven by currently recognized requirements. The one
> that is foremost in my thinking at this time is semantic content. The good
> news/bad news about this interest is that it will undoubtedly lead to
> clashes with the current WikiModel. I see from your posts that you
> personally see the model as the last (?) remaining core piece that needs
> re-architecting. I will not presume to say that I can be of any help here,
> but I will indeed be looking into it once I have completely absorbed the
> existing architecture of the entire XWiki platform. But first I have to get
> the darned system built :-)
>
> --Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> Vincent Massol
> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:31 AM
> To: XWiki Developers
> Subject: Re: [xwiki-devs] Are Outside Developers Really Welcome?
>
> Hi Gary,
>
> Since you're not the first one to ask I've created a FAQ entry about this:
> http://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/FAQ/What+is+the+relationship+between+XWi
> ki+SAS+and+the+XWiki+open+source+project
>
> Hope you'll find the information you were looking for inside and that you'll
> be reassured that we are completely the opposite of what you initially
> thought (we strive very hard to NOT be a closed open source and make every
> effort to be what I call a "real open source project", i.e. a
> community-based open source project.
>
> If you see any deviation from this please point them out. It seems to me
> that you confused the way we work with the fact that you didn't get any fast
> reply to your question and you jumped to a bit hasty conclusions ;)
>
> Generally speaking (excluding the Seminar thing), the reasons people answer
> faster to some people than others:
> * They know each other from their previous work in the community and thus
> have built respect and the person getting replied to has **contributed**
> back to the community thus establishing this level of intimacy/confidence
> * They know the topic and can thus answer
> * How the questions are phrased, how long the question is, and how easy they
> are to be answered
> * ah yes. also. the phase of the moon. ;)
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> On Jul 23, 2012, at 11:24 PM, Gary Kopp wrote:
>
>> To XWiki SAS, and non-affiliated XWiki developers:
>>
>> While XWiki meets the technical requirements of being "open source,"
>> so far I have found it to be a bit "closed" in its pragmatic aspects.
>> The developers actually interacting in public on this list all seem to
>> be employees of the sponsors, and the communications seem to restrict
>> themselves to development going on internally. Over the last week or
>> so, questions coming in from "outsiders" (like myself) go unanswered.
>> It's not necessarily atypical for open source sponsors to be
>> unresponsive to outsiders, but the better open source projects still
>> encourage the active committers to provide some level of support for
> potential contributors.
>> Beyond that, when outside "hackers" (meant in a positive sense) are
>> tinkering with an open source project they typically do offer their
>> own contributions to questions raised on development mailing lists, in
>> those open source projects where such activity is possible and/or
>> encouraged. I see no evidence of outsider developers/hackers in the XWiki
> project.
>>
>> What finally led me to write this e-mail is my inability to build
>> XWiki from source. I was initially encouraged by the presence of quite
>> a bit of information about building in the wiki documents. But when I
>> actually tried to put the instructions into practice I found them to
>> be less than complete, and unable to be followed to a successful
>> conclusion (while the purpose of this e-mail is not to get help with
>> these problems, I will note that most of my problems revolve around
>> Maven). I have reached the conclusion that the only people really able
>> to build XWiki are its sponsors, using their own procedures, and these
>> procedures are _not_ those currently found on the wiki. I hope I am wrong
> about this.
>>
>> So, are outside developers encouraged to participate? Is any XWiki
>> development going on outside of the sponsoring organizations? If so,
>> do those developers find the current building documentation to be
>> adequate, and I'm simply not up to the task?
>>
>> --Gary
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

_______________________________________________
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http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
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Re: Are Outside Developers Really Welcome?

Jérôme Velociter
In reply to this post by Gary Kopp
Hello Gary,

Just to add my little testimony to the discussion.

I'm a former XWiki SAS employee, and still an active committer and
contributor - to the extend of the time I can allow myself doing that.
That's one of the things that makes truly open projects great : leaving the
company doesn't mean giving up on the community. And vice-versa : employees
don't get automatic committership rights on the project.
If you look at the the hall of fame
http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/HallOfFame#HCoreCommitters,
you'll see a fair share of core committers are XWiki SAS affiliated, but
that there are "outsiders" as well.

Hope you like it there :)

Regards,
Jerome

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 3:17 PM, Gary Kopp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Vincent,
>
> I freely admit that I did indeed form conclusions prematurely, complicated
> by the happenstance that I picked precisely the wrong point in time to
> evaluate the community (during your seminar). Given the responses on this
> thread and the resources you have referenced I now find the XWiki project
> to
> be extremely appealing from a developer's standpoint. I thank you, and the
> others on this thread, for taking the time to straighten me out.
>
> My current plan is to "give back" in some significant fashion. I am an
> exception to your typical contributor, and this will hopefully work to the
> community's benefit (but only time will tell). I am a "retired" software
> engineer, and I am still driven to architect (my true speciality) and code
> simply to exercise my mind and create things of "beauty." This is how I
> choose to spend my retirement, and I have no other time-consuming
> activities. So, being by nature obsessive-compulsive, immersive, and highly
> productive, whatever "hobby" I pick (XWiki) will receive my
> more-than-full-time attention, on a long term basis.
>
> Of course, I have my own special areas of interest when it comes to XWiki,
> even if they are not driven by currently recognized requirements. The one
> that is foremost in my thinking at this time is semantic content. The good
> news/bad news about this interest is that it will undoubtedly lead to
> clashes with the current WikiModel. I see from your posts that you
> personally see the model as the last (?) remaining core piece that needs
> re-architecting. I will not presume to say that I can be of any help here,
> but I will indeed be looking into it once I have completely absorbed the
> existing architecture of the entire XWiki platform. But first I have to get
> the darned system built :-)
>
> --Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> Vincent Massol
> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:31 AM
> To: XWiki Developers
> Subject: Re: [xwiki-devs] Are Outside Developers Really Welcome?
>
> Hi Gary,
>
> Since you're not the first one to ask I've created a FAQ entry about this:
>
> http://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/FAQ/What+is+the+relationship+between+XWi
> ki+SAS+and+the+XWiki+open+source+project
>
> Hope you'll find the information you were looking for inside and that
> you'll
> be reassured that we are completely the opposite of what you initially
> thought (we strive very hard to NOT be a closed open source and make every
> effort to be what I call a "real open source project", i.e. a
> community-based open source project.
>
> If you see any deviation from this please point them out. It seems to me
> that you confused the way we work with the fact that you didn't get any
> fast
> reply to your question and you jumped to a bit hasty conclusions ;)
>
> Generally speaking (excluding the Seminar thing), the reasons people answer
> faster to some people than others:
> * They know each other from their previous work in the community and thus
> have built respect and the person getting replied to has **contributed**
> back to the community thus establishing this level of intimacy/confidence
> * They know the topic and can thus answer
> * How the questions are phrased, how long the question is, and how easy
> they
> are to be answered
> * ah yes. also. the phase of the moon. ;)
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> On Jul 23, 2012, at 11:24 PM, Gary Kopp wrote:
>
> > To XWiki SAS, and non-affiliated XWiki developers:
> >
> > While XWiki meets the technical requirements of being "open source,"
> > so far I have found it to be a bit "closed" in its pragmatic aspects.
> > The developers actually interacting in public on this list all seem to
> > be employees of the sponsors, and the communications seem to restrict
> > themselves to development going on internally. Over the last week or
> > so, questions coming in from "outsiders" (like myself) go unanswered.
> > It's not necessarily atypical for open source sponsors to be
> > unresponsive to outsiders, but the better open source projects still
> > encourage the active committers to provide some level of support for
> potential contributors.
> > Beyond that, when outside "hackers" (meant in a positive sense) are
> > tinkering with an open source project they typically do offer their
> > own contributions to questions raised on development mailing lists, in
> > those open source projects where such activity is possible and/or
> > encouraged. I see no evidence of outsider developers/hackers in the XWiki
> project.
> >
> > What finally led me to write this e-mail is my inability to build
> > XWiki from source. I was initially encouraged by the presence of quite
> > a bit of information about building in the wiki documents. But when I
> > actually tried to put the instructions into practice I found them to
> > be less than complete, and unable to be followed to a successful
> > conclusion (while the purpose of this e-mail is not to get help with
> > these problems, I will note that most of my problems revolve around
> > Maven). I have reached the conclusion that the only people really able
> > to build XWiki are its sponsors, using their own procedures, and these
> > procedures are _not_ those currently found on the wiki. I hope I am wrong
> about this.
> >
> > So, are outside developers encouraged to participate? Is any XWiki
> > development going on outside of the sponsoring organizations? If so,
> > do those developers find the current building documentation to be
> > adequate, and I'm simply not up to the task?
> >
> > --Gary
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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Re: Are Outside Developers Really Welcome?

Gary Kopp
In reply to this post by vmassol
My build issues all center around Maven problems, both from the command line
and using m2eclipse (different problems in each case). But my knowledge of
Maven is deficient, so I've decided to do some in-depth Maven reading before
asking potentially stupid questions and wasting everyone's time :-)

--Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Vincent Massol
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 7:36 AM
To: XWiki Developers
Subject: Re: [xwiki-devs] Are Outside Developers Really Welcome?

Hey this is great!

Thanks for presenting what you'd like to do and your interests. That's very
cool.

I really hope you like it here in this community :)

Most of us here also like to create "things of beauty" so you should feel at
home!

Re the build what issue do you have?

Thanks
-Vincent

On Jul 24, 2012, at 3:17 PM, Gary Kopp wrote:

> Vincent,
>
> I freely admit that I did indeed form conclusions prematurely,
> complicated by the happenstance that I picked precisely the wrong
> point in time to evaluate the community (during your seminar). Given
> the responses on this thread and the resources you have referenced I
> now find the XWiki project to be extremely appealing from a
> developer's standpoint. I thank you, and the others on this thread, for
taking the time to straighten me out.

>
> My current plan is to "give back" in some significant fashion. I am an
> exception to your typical contributor, and this will hopefully work to
> the community's benefit (but only time will tell). I am a "retired"
> software engineer, and I am still driven to architect (my true
> speciality) and code simply to exercise my mind and create things of
> "beauty." This is how I choose to spend my retirement, and I have no
> other time-consuming activities. So, being by nature
> obsessive-compulsive, immersive, and highly productive, whatever
> "hobby" I pick (XWiki) will receive my more-than-full-time attention, on a
long term basis.

>
> Of course, I have my own special areas of interest when it comes to
> XWiki, even if they are not driven by currently recognized
> requirements. The one that is foremost in my thinking at this time is
> semantic content. The good news/bad news about this interest is that
> it will undoubtedly lead to clashes with the current WikiModel. I see
> from your posts that you personally see the model as the last (?)
> remaining core piece that needs re-architecting. I will not presume to
> say that I can be of any help here, but I will indeed be looking into
> it once I have completely absorbed the existing architecture of the
> entire XWiki platform. But first I have to get the darned system built
> :-)
>
> --Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
> Of Vincent Massol
> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:31 AM
> To: XWiki Developers
> Subject: Re: [xwiki-devs] Are Outside Developers Really Welcome?
>
> Hi Gary,
>
> Since you're not the first one to ask I've created a FAQ entry about this:
> http://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/FAQ/What+is+the+relationship+betwe
> en+XWi
> ki+SAS+and+the+XWiki+open+source+project
>
> Hope you'll find the information you were looking for inside and that
> you'll be reassured that we are completely the opposite of what you
> initially thought (we strive very hard to NOT be a closed open source
> and make every effort to be what I call a "real open source project",
> i.e. a community-based open source project.
>
> If you see any deviation from this please point them out. It seems to
> me that you confused the way we work with the fact that you didn't get
> any fast reply to your question and you jumped to a bit hasty
> conclusions ;)
>
> Generally speaking (excluding the Seminar thing), the reasons people
> answer faster to some people than others:
> * They know each other from their previous work in the community and
> thus have built respect and the person getting replied to has
> **contributed** back to the community thus establishing this level of
> intimacy/confidence
> * They know the topic and can thus answer
> * How the questions are phrased, how long the question is, and how
> easy they are to be answered
> * ah yes. also. the phase of the moon. ;)
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> On Jul 23, 2012, at 11:24 PM, Gary Kopp wrote:
>
>> To XWiki SAS, and non-affiliated XWiki developers:
>>
>> While XWiki meets the technical requirements of being "open source,"
>> so far I have found it to be a bit "closed" in its pragmatic aspects.
>> The developers actually interacting in public on this list all seem
>> to be employees of the sponsors, and the communications seem to
>> restrict themselves to development going on internally. Over the last
>> week or so, questions coming in from "outsiders" (like myself) go
unanswered.

>> It's not necessarily atypical for open source sponsors to be
>> unresponsive to outsiders, but the better open source projects still
>> encourage the active committers to provide some level of support for
> potential contributors.
>> Beyond that, when outside "hackers" (meant in a positive sense) are
>> tinkering with an open source project they typically do offer their
>> own contributions to questions raised on development mailing lists,
>> in those open source projects where such activity is possible and/or
>> encouraged. I see no evidence of outsider developers/hackers in the
>> XWiki
> project.
>>
>> What finally led me to write this e-mail is my inability to build
>> XWiki from source. I was initially encouraged by the presence of
>> quite a bit of information about building in the wiki documents. But
>> when I actually tried to put the instructions into practice I found
>> them to be less than complete, and unable to be followed to a
>> successful conclusion (while the purpose of this e-mail is not to get
>> help with these problems, I will note that most of my problems
>> revolve around Maven). I have reached the conclusion that the only
>> people really able to build XWiki are its sponsors, using their own
>> procedures, and these procedures are _not_ those currently found on
>> the wiki. I hope I am wrong
> about this.
>>
>> So, are outside developers encouraged to participate? Is any XWiki
>> development going on outside of the sponsoring organizations? If so,
>> do those developers find the current building documentation to be
>> adequate, and I'm simply not up to the task?
>>
>> --Gary
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

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Re: Are Outside Developers Really Welcome?

Gary Kopp
In reply to this post by Jérôme Velociter
Thanks for the additional testimony, Jerome.

This might be a bit off-topic or even inappropriate, but I can't control my
curiosity :-) XWiki SAS is headquartered in Paris. But there's a satellite
in Romania. How did the Romanian connection come about?

--Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Jerome Velociter
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 8:45 AM
To: XWiki Developers
Subject: Re: [xwiki-devs] Are Outside Developers Really Welcome?

Hello Gary,

Just to add my little testimony to the discussion.

I'm a former XWiki SAS employee, and still an active committer and
contributor - to the extend of the time I can allow myself doing that.
That's one of the things that makes truly open projects great : leaving the
company doesn't mean giving up on the community. And vice-versa : employees
don't get automatic committership rights on the project.
If you look at the the hall of fame
http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/HallOfFame#HCoreCommitters,
you'll see a fair share of core committers are XWiki SAS affiliated, but
that there are "outsiders" as well.

Hope you like it there :)

Regards,
Jerome

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 3:17 PM, Gary Kopp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Vincent,
>
> I freely admit that I did indeed form conclusions prematurely,
> complicated by the happenstance that I picked precisely the wrong
> point in time to evaluate the community (during your seminar). Given
> the responses on this thread and the resources you have referenced I
> now find the XWiki project to be extremely appealing from a
> developer's standpoint. I thank you, and the others on this thread,
> for taking the time to straighten me out.
>
> My current plan is to "give back" in some significant fashion. I am an
> exception to your typical contributor, and this will hopefully work to
> the community's benefit (but only time will tell). I am a "retired"
> software engineer, and I am still driven to architect (my true
> speciality) and code simply to exercise my mind and create things of
> "beauty." This is how I choose to spend my retirement, and I have no
> other time-consuming activities. So, being by nature
> obsessive-compulsive, immersive, and highly productive, whatever
> "hobby" I pick (XWiki) will receive my more-than-full-time attention, on a
long term basis.

>
> Of course, I have my own special areas of interest when it comes to
> XWiki, even if they are not driven by currently recognized
> requirements. The one that is foremost in my thinking at this time is
> semantic content. The good news/bad news about this interest is that
> it will undoubtedly lead to clashes with the current WikiModel. I see
> from your posts that you personally see the model as the last (?)
> remaining core piece that needs re-architecting. I will not presume to
> say that I can be of any help here, but I will indeed be looking into
> it once I have completely absorbed the existing architecture of the
> entire XWiki platform. But first I have to get the darned system built
> :-)
>
> --Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
> Of Vincent Massol
> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:31 AM
> To: XWiki Developers
> Subject: Re: [xwiki-devs] Are Outside Developers Really Welcome?
>
> Hi Gary,
>
> Since you're not the first one to ask I've created a FAQ entry about this:
>
> http://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/FAQ/What+is+the+relationship+betwe
> en+XWi
> ki+SAS+and+the+XWiki+open+source+project
>
> Hope you'll find the information you were looking for inside and that
> you'll be reassured that we are completely the opposite of what you
> initially thought (we strive very hard to NOT be a closed open source
> and make every effort to be what I call a "real open source project",
> i.e. a community-based open source project.
>
> If you see any deviation from this please point them out. It seems to
> me that you confused the way we work with the fact that you didn't get
> any fast reply to your question and you jumped to a bit hasty
> conclusions ;)
>
> Generally speaking (excluding the Seminar thing), the reasons people
> answer faster to some people than others:
> * They know each other from their previous work in the community and
> thus have built respect and the person getting replied to has
> **contributed** back to the community thus establishing this level of
> intimacy/confidence
> * They know the topic and can thus answer
> * How the questions are phrased, how long the question is, and how
> easy they are to be answered
> * ah yes. also. the phase of the moon. ;)
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> On Jul 23, 2012, at 11:24 PM, Gary Kopp wrote:
>
> > To XWiki SAS, and non-affiliated XWiki developers:
> >
> > While XWiki meets the technical requirements of being "open source,"
> > so far I have found it to be a bit "closed" in its pragmatic aspects.
> > The developers actually interacting in public on this list all seem
> > to be employees of the sponsors, and the communications seem to
> > restrict themselves to development going on internally. Over the
> > last week or so, questions coming in from "outsiders" (like myself) go
unanswered.

> > It's not necessarily atypical for open source sponsors to be
> > unresponsive to outsiders, but the better open source projects still
> > encourage the active committers to provide some level of support for
> potential contributors.
> > Beyond that, when outside "hackers" (meant in a positive sense) are
> > tinkering with an open source project they typically do offer their
> > own contributions to questions raised on development mailing lists,
> > in those open source projects where such activity is possible and/or
> > encouraged. I see no evidence of outsider developers/hackers in the
> > XWiki
> project.
> >
> > What finally led me to write this e-mail is my inability to build
> > XWiki from source. I was initially encouraged by the presence of
> > quite a bit of information about building in the wiki documents. But
> > when I actually tried to put the instructions into practice I found
> > them to be less than complete, and unable to be followed to a
> > successful conclusion (while the purpose of this e-mail is not to
> > get help with these problems, I will note that most of my problems
> > revolve around Maven). I have reached the conclusion that the only
> > people really able to build XWiki are its sponsors, using their own
> > procedures, and these procedures are _not_ those currently found on
> > the wiki. I hope I am wrong
> about this.
> >
> > So, are outside developers encouraged to participate? Is any XWiki
> > development going on outside of the sponsoring organizations? If so,
> > do those developers find the current building documentation to be
> > adequate, and I'm simply not up to the task?
> >
> > --Gary
> _______________________________________________
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> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: Are Outside Developers Really Welcome?

vmassol
Administrator

On Jul 24, 2012, at 4:59 PM, Gary Kopp wrote:

> Thanks for the additional testimony, Jerome.
>
> This might be a bit off-topic or even inappropriate, but I can't control my
> curiosity :-) XWiki SAS is headquartered in Paris. But there's a satellite
> in Romania. How did the Romanian connection come about?

There were 2 GSOC students that contributed to the XWiki open source project and they continued to be active (Sergiu and Marta - Sergiu is still very active in the project and Marta from time to time) even after the GSOC. At some point XWiki SAS asked them if they wanted to join the company and they agreed. It just happened that 1) they were living in Romania (could have been any other part of the world!) and 2) they were teachers at the University and knew a lot of good computer science students and XWiki SAS also hired a few of them who themselves had friends… ;) And in no time there was a Romanian subsidiary ;)

Thanks
-Vincent

> --Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> Jerome Velociter
> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 8:45 AM
> To: XWiki Developers
> Subject: Re: [xwiki-devs] Are Outside Developers Really Welcome?
>
> Hello Gary,
>
> Just to add my little testimony to the discussion.
>
> I'm a former XWiki SAS employee, and still an active committer and
> contributor - to the extend of the time I can allow myself doing that.
> That's one of the things that makes truly open projects great : leaving the
> company doesn't mean giving up on the community. And vice-versa : employees
> don't get automatic committership rights on the project.
> If you look at the the hall of fame
> http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/HallOfFame#HCoreCommitters,
> you'll see a fair share of core committers are XWiki SAS affiliated, but
> that there are "outsiders" as well.
>
> Hope you like it there :)
>
> Regards,
> Jerome
>
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 3:17 PM, Gary Kopp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Vincent,
>>
>> I freely admit that I did indeed form conclusions prematurely,
>> complicated by the happenstance that I picked precisely the wrong
>> point in time to evaluate the community (during your seminar). Given
>> the responses on this thread and the resources you have referenced I
>> now find the XWiki project to be extremely appealing from a
>> developer's standpoint. I thank you, and the others on this thread,
>> for taking the time to straighten me out.
>>
>> My current plan is to "give back" in some significant fashion. I am an
>> exception to your typical contributor, and this will hopefully work to
>> the community's benefit (but only time will tell). I am a "retired"
>> software engineer, and I am still driven to architect (my true
>> speciality) and code simply to exercise my mind and create things of
>> "beauty." This is how I choose to spend my retirement, and I have no
>> other time-consuming activities. So, being by nature
>> obsessive-compulsive, immersive, and highly productive, whatever
>> "hobby" I pick (XWiki) will receive my more-than-full-time attention, on a
> long term basis.
>>
>> Of course, I have my own special areas of interest when it comes to
>> XWiki, even if they are not driven by currently recognized
>> requirements. The one that is foremost in my thinking at this time is
>> semantic content. The good news/bad news about this interest is that
>> it will undoubtedly lead to clashes with the current WikiModel. I see
>> from your posts that you personally see the model as the last (?)
>> remaining core piece that needs re-architecting. I will not presume to
>> say that I can be of any help here, but I will indeed be looking into
>> it once I have completely absorbed the existing architecture of the
>> entire XWiki platform. But first I have to get the darned system built
>> :-)
>>
>> --Gary
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
>> Of Vincent Massol
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:31 AM
>> To: XWiki Developers
>> Subject: Re: [xwiki-devs] Are Outside Developers Really Welcome?
>>
>> Hi Gary,
>>
>> Since you're not the first one to ask I've created a FAQ entry about this:
>>
>> http://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/FAQ/What+is+the+relationship+betwe
>> en+XWi
>> ki+SAS+and+the+XWiki+open+source+project
>>
>> Hope you'll find the information you were looking for inside and that
>> you'll be reassured that we are completely the opposite of what you
>> initially thought (we strive very hard to NOT be a closed open source
>> and make every effort to be what I call a "real open source project",
>> i.e. a community-based open source project.
>>
>> If you see any deviation from this please point them out. It seems to
>> me that you confused the way we work with the fact that you didn't get
>> any fast reply to your question and you jumped to a bit hasty
>> conclusions ;)
>>
>> Generally speaking (excluding the Seminar thing), the reasons people
>> answer faster to some people than others:
>> * They know each other from their previous work in the community and
>> thus have built respect and the person getting replied to has
>> **contributed** back to the community thus establishing this level of
>> intimacy/confidence
>> * They know the topic and can thus answer
>> * How the questions are phrased, how long the question is, and how
>> easy they are to be answered
>> * ah yes. also. the phase of the moon. ;)
>>
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent
>>
>> On Jul 23, 2012, at 11:24 PM, Gary Kopp wrote:
>>
>>> To XWiki SAS, and non-affiliated XWiki developers:
>>>
>>> While XWiki meets the technical requirements of being "open source,"
>>> so far I have found it to be a bit "closed" in its pragmatic aspects.
>>> The developers actually interacting in public on this list all seem
>>> to be employees of the sponsors, and the communications seem to
>>> restrict themselves to development going on internally. Over the
>>> last week or so, questions coming in from "outsiders" (like myself) go
> unanswered.
>>> It's not necessarily atypical for open source sponsors to be
>>> unresponsive to outsiders, but the better open source projects still
>>> encourage the active committers to provide some level of support for
>> potential contributors.
>>> Beyond that, when outside "hackers" (meant in a positive sense) are
>>> tinkering with an open source project they typically do offer their
>>> own contributions to questions raised on development mailing lists,
>>> in those open source projects where such activity is possible and/or
>>> encouraged. I see no evidence of outsider developers/hackers in the
>>> XWiki
>> project.
>>>
>>> What finally led me to write this e-mail is my inability to build
>>> XWiki from source. I was initially encouraged by the presence of
>>> quite a bit of information about building in the wiki documents. But
>>> when I actually tried to put the instructions into practice I found
>>> them to be less than complete, and unable to be followed to a
>>> successful conclusion (while the purpose of this e-mail is not to
>>> get help with these problems, I will note that most of my problems
>>> revolve around Maven). I have reached the conclusion that the only
>>> people really able to build XWiki are its sponsors, using their own
>>> procedures, and these procedures are _not_ those currently found on
>>> the wiki. I hope I am wrong
>> about this.
>>>
>>> So, are outside developers encouraged to participate? Is any XWiki
>>> development going on outside of the sponsoring organizations? If so,
>>> do those developers find the current building documentation to be
>>> adequate, and I'm simply not up to the task?
>>>
>>> --Gary
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