Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

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Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

Andreas Hahn
Hi everyone,

I'd like to make the proposal to drop the existing mailing lists in
favor of a forum (bulletin board) software.

The objective is to promote the XWiki community discussions to a broader
audience.

1) A forum serves like an advertising window as anyone can read the
contributions without subscription.
2) Anyone can judge the activity by reading the view count.
3) New users can get in touch with the community without being urged to
subscribe to a mailing list.
4) Many people consider mailing lists as spam and prefer not to subscribe
5) Contributions have a longer visibility and older entries will get
responses
6) Communication gets more efficient as the same topics won't get
repeatedly discussed
7) To my experience forums get much better indexed by google as mail
collectors like Nabble , Markmail, e.t.c.
8) Forums encourage user to user discussions and you will see new users
taking an active role
9) There should be at least one additional category IMHO: administrators
10) A forum is more pleasure to read once a topic split into many threads
11) A forum is beneficial when expecting increasing support requirements
- some real large scale forums were run by just a few moderators
12) More people will see what a teriffic job the XWiki team does.

Here's my +1

Andreas

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Re: Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

Ludovic Dubost

I think you need to mention:

- which mailing lists (all ? only user ? devs ?)

In my opinion not all mailing list have the same need. While the user
list is very much about support discussions, the dev list is about
design and discussions about the future of XWiki.
I'm not sure forum software will be good for that

- and which forum software ? an internaly manage software ? a cloud
based software ?

Balsamiq (great mockup tool which has an XWiki integration) uses
getsatisfaction.com
http://community.balsamiq.com/balsamiq for their support forums.

This is a  cloud based service that is an interesting candidate for the
"user" forums.
I don't think it fits the need for "devs" discussions.

For devs discussions what we would more need is a  more integrated
experience with xwiki.org, namely being able to link and capture
discussion threads with the content itself being discussed.
This could force us to make "proposals" a "document" in the wiki instead
of just being an email.

Ludovic


Le 07/03/11 23:13, Andreas Hahn a écrit :

> Hi everyone,
>
> I'd like to make the proposal to drop the existing mailing lists in
> favor of a forum (bulletin board) software.
>
> The objective is to promote the XWiki community discussions to a broader
> audience.
>
> 1) A forum serves like an advertising window as anyone can read the
> contributions without subscription.
> 2) Anyone can judge the activity by reading the view count.
> 3) New users can get in touch with the community without being urged to
> subscribe to a mailing list.
> 4) Many people consider mailing lists as spam and prefer not to subscribe
> 5) Contributions have a longer visibility and older entries will get
> responses
> 6) Communication gets more efficient as the same topics won't get
> repeatedly discussed
> 7) To my experience forums get much better indexed by google as mail
> collectors like Nabble , Markmail, e.t.c.
> 8) Forums encourage user to user discussions and you will see new users
> taking an active role
> 9) There should be at least one additional category IMHO: administrators
> 10) A forum is more pleasure to read once a topic split into many threads
> 11) A forum is beneficial when expecting increasing support requirements
> - some real large scale forums were run by just a few moderators
> 12) More people will see what a teriffic job the XWiki team does.
>
> Here's my +1
>
> Andreas
>
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>

--
Ludovic Dubost
Blog: http://blog.ludovic.org/
XWiki: http://www.xwiki.com
Skype: ldubost GTalk: ldubost


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Re: Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

Lockie
In reply to this post by Andreas Hahn
I use this URL: http://xwiki.475771.n2.nabble.com/XWiki-Users-f475772.html which makes the mailing list appear like a forum. I prefer a forum layout so you have my +1.
Lockie
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Re: Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by Andreas Hahn
Hi Andreas,

On Mar 7, 2011, at 11:13 PM, Andreas Hahn wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I'd like to make the proposal to drop the existing mailing lists in
> favor of a forum (bulletin board) software.
>
> The objective is to promote the XWiki community discussions to a broader
> audience.
>
> 1) A forum serves like an advertising window as anyone can read the
> contributions without subscription.

You don't need any subscription to read mailing lists.
See http://xwiki.markmail.org/

> 2) Anyone can judge the activity by reading the view count.

Same here:
http://xwiki.markmail.org/

> 3) New users can get in touch with the community without being urged to
> subscribe to a mailing list.

How? Even with forums you need to subscribe.

> 4) Many people consider mailing lists as spam and prefer not to subscribe
> 5) Contributions have a longer visibility and older entries will get
> responses

> 6) Communication gets more efficient as the same topics won't get
> repeatedly discussed

> 7) To my experience forums get much better indexed by google as mail
> collectors like Nabble , Markmail, e.t.c.
> 8) Forums encourage user to user discussions and you will see new users
> taking an active role
> 9) There should be at least one additional category IMHO: administrators
> 10) A forum is more pleasure to read once a topic split into many threads
> 11) A forum is beneficial when expecting increasing support requirements
> - some real large scale forums were run by just a few moderators
> 12) More people will see what a teriffic job the XWiki team does.
>
> Here's my +1

I have some good news for you: we already have a forum! :)

See http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/MailingLists
And more specifically:
http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/Forum

Now if this forum doesn't fit your needs could you explain what requirements you'd have for a forum and which solution you'd pick?
I personally liked jive forums but it doesn't exist anymore (it's folded into a full collaboration suite now).

Thanks
-Vincent

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Re: Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

Paul Libbrecht-2
In reply to this post by Andreas Hahn
Here are my counter arguments:
-1) you have to go to the web-page to read the forum posts
-2) replying needs a web-connection and a functioning web-browser, this means that slowly written drafts have to be written somewhere else
-3) it is much easier and more flexible to re-adjust the layout of a mail being written than a forum post

Here is my -1.

paul


Le 7 mars 2011 à 23:13, Andreas Hahn a écrit :

> Hi everyone,
>
> I'd like to make the proposal to drop the existing mailing lists in
> favor of a forum (bulletin board) software.
>
> The objective is to promote the XWiki community discussions to a broader
> audience.
>
> 1) A forum serves like an advertising window as anyone can read the
> contributions without subscription.
> 2) Anyone can judge the activity by reading the view count.
> 3) New users can get in touch with the community without being urged to
> subscribe to a mailing list.
> 4) Many people consider mailing lists as spam and prefer not to subscribe
> 5) Contributions have a longer visibility and older entries will get
> responses
> 6) Communication gets more efficient as the same topics won't get
> repeatedly discussed
> 7) To my experience forums get much better indexed by google as mail
> collectors like Nabble , Markmail, e.t.c.
> 8) Forums encourage user to user discussions and you will see new users
> taking an active role
> 9) There should be at least one additional category IMHO: administrators
> 10) A forum is more pleasure to read once a topic split into many threads
> 11) A forum is beneficial when expecting increasing support requirements
> - some real large scale forums were run by just a few moderators
> 12) More people will see what a teriffic job the XWiki team does.
>
> Here's my +1
>
> Andreas
>
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users

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Re: Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

Thomas Mortagne
Administrator
In reply to this post by Andreas Hahn
On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 23:13, Andreas Hahn <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I'd like to make the proposal to drop the existing mailing lists in
> favor of a forum (bulletin board) software.
>
> The objective is to promote the XWiki community discussions to a broader
> audience.
>
> 1) A forum serves like an advertising window as anyone can read the
> contributions without subscription.
> 2) Anyone can judge the activity by reading the view count.
> 3) New users can get in touch with the community without being urged to
> subscribe to a mailing list.
> 4) Many people consider mailing lists as spam and prefer not to subscribe
> 5) Contributions have a longer visibility and older entries will get
> responses
> 6) Communication gets more efficient as the same topics won't get
> repeatedly discussed
> 7) To my experience forums get much better indexed by google as mail
> collectors like Nabble , Markmail, e.t.c.
> 8) Forums encourage user to user discussions and you will see new users
> taking an active role
> 9) There should be at least one additional category IMHO: administrators
> 10) A forum is more pleasure to read once a topic split into many threads
> 11) A forum is beneficial when expecting increasing support requirements
> - some real large scale forums were run by just a few moderators
> 12) More people will see what a teriffic job the XWiki team does.
>
> Here's my +1

-1

I will not repeat arguments Paul gave already and add mine:
- currently I have everything in one place: my mail box and I like it
the way it is way more than having to go in a forum website

If all you want is forum feeling
http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/Forum should be well
enough IMO.

>
> Andreas
>
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>



--
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Re: Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

Andreas Hahn
In reply to this post by vmassol
Hi Vincent,

Am 08.03.2011 07:45, schrieb Vincent Massol:

> Hi Andreas,
>
> On Mar 7, 2011, at 11:13 PM, Andreas Hahn wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I'd like to make the proposal to drop the existing mailing lists in
>> favor of a forum (bulletin board) software.
>>
>> The objective is to promote the XWiki community discussions to a broader
>> audience.
>>
>> 1) A forum serves like an advertising window as anyone can read the
>> contributions without subscription.
> You don't need any subscription to read mailing lists.
> See http://xwiki.markmail.org/
>
>> 2) Anyone can judge the activity by reading the view count.
> Same here:
> http://xwiki.markmail.org/
>
>> 3) New users can get in touch with the community without being urged to
>> subscribe to a mailing list.
> How? Even with forums you need to subscribe.
>
>> 4) Many people consider mailing lists as spam and prefer not to subscribe
>> 5) Contributions have a longer visibility and older entries will get
>> responses
>> 6) Communication gets more efficient as the same topics won't get
>> repeatedly discussed
>> 7) To my experience forums get much better indexed by google as mail
>> collectors like Nabble , Markmail, e.t.c.
>> 8) Forums encourage user to user discussions and you will see new users
>> taking an active role
>> 9) There should be at least one additional category IMHO: administrators
>> 10) A forum is more pleasure to read once a topic split into many threads
>> 11) A forum is beneficial when expecting increasing support requirements
>> - some real large scale forums were run by just a few moderators
>> 12) More people will see what a teriffic job the XWiki team does.
>>
>> Here's my +1
> I have some good news for you: we already have a forum! :)
Actually i wasn't aware that there is already an integration with the
dev page.
I might not have written my proposal if I were. But shouldn't the forums
be mentioned / linked in a more prominent place on the homepage ?

However as I wrote - the objective was  "to promote the XWiki community
discussions to a broader audience" as part of a strategy to make XWiki
aware to more users that don't already subscribe and that my not already
be aware of XWiki.org. I have no numbers at hand - its just my feelings
- that indexing of markmail and nabble to google compares badly to other
forum software.
But so what - except for the ugly reading of large threads and the
meaningless statistics of a threads view count because of the many
different access methods -
there is not that much left over I guess.
> See http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/MailingLists
> And more specifically:
> http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/Forum
>
> Now if this forum doesn't fit your needs could you explain what requirements you'd have for a forum and which solution you'd pick?
> I personally liked jive forums but it doesn't exist anymore (it's folded into a full collaboration suite now).

I have a personal favorite - that is stackoverflow.com.
Its fun to read - encourages exploration - there are numerous
indications for the relevance of a contribution.
I've been pointed to by google a couple of times and for many purposes
it became my primary forum website.
Many people there that are seeking advice a la 'whats the best tool to ...'

However its a developers forum and from a project "owner" perspective
I'd hesitate to recommend it as a support forum.
Its backed by VC and soon they will need to make money one way or the other.
OTOH the tags 'wiki' and 'collaborative' are somehow underrepresented ...

bye

Andreas

> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>

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Re: Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

Sergiu Dumitriu-2
In reply to this post by vmassol
On 03/08/2011 07:45 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:

> Hi Andreas,
>
> On Mar 7, 2011, at 11:13 PM, Andreas Hahn wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I'd like to make the proposal to drop the existing mailing lists in
>> favor of a forum (bulletin board) software.
>>
>> The objective is to promote the XWiki community discussions to a broader
>> audience.
>>
>> 1) A forum serves like an advertising window as anyone can read the
>> contributions without subscription.
>
> You don't need any subscription to read mailing lists.
> See http://xwiki.markmail.org/
>
>> 2) Anyone can judge the activity by reading the view count.
>
> Same here:
> http://xwiki.markmail.org/
>
>> 3) New users can get in touch with the community without being urged to
>> subscribe to a mailing list.
>
> How? Even with forums you need to subscribe.
>
>> 4) Many people consider mailing lists as spam and prefer not to subscribe
>> 5) Contributions have a longer visibility and older entries will get
>> responses
>
>> 6) Communication gets more efficient as the same topics won't get
>> repeatedly discussed
>
>> 7) To my experience forums get much better indexed by google as mail
>> collectors like Nabble , Markmail, e.t.c.
>> 8) Forums encourage user to user discussions and you will see new users
>> taking an active role
>> 9) There should be at least one additional category IMHO: administrators
>> 10) A forum is more pleasure to read once a topic split into many threads
>> 11) A forum is beneficial when expecting increasing support requirements
>> - some real large scale forums were run by just a few moderators
>> 12) More people will see what a teriffic job the XWiki team does.
>>
>> Here's my +1
>
> I have some good news for you: we already have a forum! :)
>
> See http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/MailingLists
> And more specifically:
> http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/Forum
>
> Now if this forum doesn't fit your needs could you explain what requirements you'd have for a forum and which solution you'd pick?
> I personally liked jive forums but it doesn't exist anymore (it's folded into a full collaboration suite now).
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent

This was thoroughly discussed four years ago, and the conclusion was
against installing a specific forum, and stick with Nabble as a
forum-like view of the mailing list activity:
http://markmail.org/thread/gbdnyb7jbh4ha5ja

--
Sergiu Dumitriu
http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
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Re: Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

vmassol
Administrator

On Mar 8, 2011, at 3:04 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:

> On 03/08/2011 07:45 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
>> Hi Andreas,
>>
>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 11:13 PM, Andreas Hahn wrote:
>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> I'd like to make the proposal to drop the existing mailing lists in
>>> favor of a forum (bulletin board) software.
>>>
>>> The objective is to promote the XWiki community discussions to a broader
>>> audience.
>>>
>>> 1) A forum serves like an advertising window as anyone can read the
>>> contributions without subscription.
>>
>> You don't need any subscription to read mailing lists.
>> See http://xwiki.markmail.org/
>>
>>> 2) Anyone can judge the activity by reading the view count.
>>
>> Same here:
>> http://xwiki.markmail.org/
>>
>>> 3) New users can get in touch with the community without being urged to
>>> subscribe to a mailing list.
>>
>> How? Even with forums you need to subscribe.
>>
>>> 4) Many people consider mailing lists as spam and prefer not to subscribe
>>> 5) Contributions have a longer visibility and older entries will get
>>> responses
>>
>>> 6) Communication gets more efficient as the same topics won't get
>>> repeatedly discussed
>>
>>> 7) To my experience forums get much better indexed by google as mail
>>> collectors like Nabble , Markmail, e.t.c.
>>> 8) Forums encourage user to user discussions and you will see new users
>>> taking an active role
>>> 9) There should be at least one additional category IMHO: administrators
>>> 10) A forum is more pleasure to read once a topic split into many threads
>>> 11) A forum is beneficial when expecting increasing support requirements
>>> - some real large scale forums were run by just a few moderators
>>> 12) More people will see what a teriffic job the XWiki team does.
>>>
>>> Here's my +1
>>
>> I have some good news for you: we already have a forum! :)
>>
>> See http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/MailingLists
>> And more specifically:
>> http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/Forum
>>
>> Now if this forum doesn't fit your needs could you explain what requirements you'd have for a forum and which solution you'd pick?
>> I personally liked jive forums but it doesn't exist anymore (it's folded into a full collaboration suite now).
>>
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent
>
> This was thoroughly discussed four years ago, and the conclusion was
> against installing a specific forum, and stick with Nabble as a
> forum-like view of the mailing list activity:
> http://markmail.org/thread/gbdnyb7jbh4ha5ja

Right I had forgotten about this discussion :)

I do remember another one though (earlier than the one you pointed) where I was the one wanting a forum as a way to get more participation.

What I'd really like to have that we don't currently have is a way to more visibly see who's participating more and thus encourage participation. A lot of forum do this by giving points to people who answer questions, then they get a title and a badge based on these points. Then you can list the top contributors.

That said, thanks to markmail, I think our mailing lists have become a lot more browsable than before and we even get statistics:
http://xwiki.markmail.org/search/?q=

At some point in the past I looked at jive because it has this point system and it had the feature to be integrated on top of a mailing list. But since it disappeared I haven't found any other good option that would allow us to keep the list too.

Now we have a real open question as to whether we want to keep our list AND create a getstatisfaction project for XWiki too (getsatisfaction or another similar tool). So far we've resisted doing this because it means scattering our support and thus reducing the support quality level (we cannot monitor several places easily). There are some guys who post and ask questions about xwiki on developez.com for example (see http://tinyurl.com/4ftdyly) but since we don't answer there I believe people either think xwiki is not well supported or they find their way to the official support location.

One one hand I'd love to use a tool such as getsatisfaction, OTOH I don't know how we can manage properly both our lists + getsatisfaction.

One solution would be to remove the user list and only keep the devs list and move users to getsatisfaction but I'm not sure how good or bad that would be.

Anyone having any thoughts on this?

Thanks
-Vincent

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Re: Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

Sergiu Dumitriu-2
On 03/08/2011 03:30 PM, Vincent Massol wrote:

>
> On Mar 8, 2011, at 3:04 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:
>
>> On 03/08/2011 07:45 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
>>> Hi Andreas,
>>>
>>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 11:13 PM, Andreas Hahn wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to make the proposal to drop the existing mailing lists in
>>>> favor of a forum (bulletin board) software.
>>>>
>>>> The objective is to promote the XWiki community discussions to a broader
>>>> audience.
>>>>
>>>> 1) A forum serves like an advertising window as anyone can read the
>>>> contributions without subscription.
>>>
>>> You don't need any subscription to read mailing lists.
>>> See http://xwiki.markmail.org/
>>>
>>>> 2) Anyone can judge the activity by reading the view count.
>>>
>>> Same here:
>>> http://xwiki.markmail.org/
>>>
>>>> 3) New users can get in touch with the community without being urged to
>>>> subscribe to a mailing list.
>>>
>>> How? Even with forums you need to subscribe.
>>>
>>>> 4) Many people consider mailing lists as spam and prefer not to subscribe
>>>> 5) Contributions have a longer visibility and older entries will get
>>>> responses
>>>
>>>> 6) Communication gets more efficient as the same topics won't get
>>>> repeatedly discussed
>>>
>>>> 7) To my experience forums get much better indexed by google as mail
>>>> collectors like Nabble , Markmail, e.t.c.
>>>> 8) Forums encourage user to user discussions and you will see new users
>>>> taking an active role
>>>> 9) There should be at least one additional category IMHO: administrators
>>>> 10) A forum is more pleasure to read once a topic split into many threads
>>>> 11) A forum is beneficial when expecting increasing support requirements
>>>> - some real large scale forums were run by just a few moderators
>>>> 12) More people will see what a teriffic job the XWiki team does.
>>>>
>>>> Here's my +1
>>>
>>> I have some good news for you: we already have a forum! :)
>>>
>>> See http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/MailingLists
>>> And more specifically:
>>> http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/Forum
>>>
>>> Now if this forum doesn't fit your needs could you explain what requirements you'd have for a forum and which solution you'd pick?
>>> I personally liked jive forums but it doesn't exist anymore (it's folded into a full collaboration suite now).
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> -Vincent
>>
>> This was thoroughly discussed four years ago, and the conclusion was
>> against installing a specific forum, and stick with Nabble as a
>> forum-like view of the mailing list activity:
>> http://markmail.org/thread/gbdnyb7jbh4ha5ja
>
> Right I had forgotten about this discussion :)
>
> I do remember another one though (earlier than the one you pointed) where I was the one wanting a forum as a way to get more participation.
>
> What I'd really like to have that we don't currently have is a way to more visibly see who's participating more and thus encourage participation. A lot of forum do this by giving points to people who answer questions, then they get a title and a badge based on these points. Then you can list the top contributors.
>
> That said, thanks to markmail, I think our mailing lists have become a lot more browsable than before and we even get statistics:
> http://xwiki.markmail.org/search/?q=
>
> At some point in the past I looked at jive because it has this point system and it had the feature to be integrated on top of a mailing list. But since it disappeared I haven't found any other good option that would allow us to keep the list too.
>
> Now we have a real open question as to whether we want to keep our list AND create a getstatisfaction project for XWiki too (getsatisfaction or another similar tool). So far we've resisted doing this because it means scattering our support and thus reducing the support quality level (we cannot monitor several places easily). There are some guys who post and ask questions about xwiki on developez.com for example (see http://tinyurl.com/4ftdyly) but since we don't answer there I believe people either think xwiki is not well supported or they find their way to the official support location.
>
> One one hand I'd love to use a tool such as getsatisfaction, OTOH I don't know how we can manage properly both our lists + getsatisfaction.
>
> One solution would be to remove the user list and only keep the devs list and move users to getsatisfaction but I'm not sure how good or bad that would be.
>
> Anyone having any thoughts on this?

The users list is indeed a bit too intrusive for users. When someone has
a problem and wants to get help, they have to subscribe to the mailing
list, post their question, then be spammed by other people's problems
until they get an answer. A forum would be nicer for this kind of
problem, you can watch only the topic you're interested in.

On the other hand it's difficult for devs, since a forum-only solution
means having to watch the forum all day long. It's pull instead of push,
and the pull solution works well for users that only care for their
problem, but devs don't react unless they're pushed.

That's why a dual view of the messages is good, it lets users mind their
problems, while pushing questions to devs.

Nabble is good as a forum-over-mail solution. I'd be OK to find a
reverse solution, a good forum that has a very good email integration.
I'm not OK with devs investigating this, so if the community can
thoroughly investigate what can be used, we can implement it.

Or, if users think that Nabble is enough, but it only lacks visibility,
we can try to increase it's visibility (quick link to it, a more
prominent display on the mailing list page, a link from the Support
page...).
--
Sergiu Dumitriu
http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
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Re: Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

Andreas Hahn
In reply to this post by vmassol
Am 08.03.2011 15:30, schrieb Vincent Massol:

> On Mar 8, 2011, at 3:04 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:
>
>> On 03/08/2011 07:45 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
>>> Hi Andreas,
>>>
>>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 11:13 PM, Andreas Hahn wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to make the proposal to drop the existing mailing lists in
>>>> favor of a forum (bulletin board) software.
>>>>
>>>> The objective is to promote the XWiki community discussions to a broader
>>>> audience.
>>>>
>>>> 1) A forum serves like an advertising window as anyone can read the
>>>> contributions without subscription.
>>> You don't need any subscription to read mailing lists.
>>> See http://xwiki.markmail.org/
>>>
>>>> 2) Anyone can judge the activity by reading the view count.
>>> Same here:
>>> http://xwiki.markmail.org/
>>>
>>>> 3) New users can get in touch with the community without being urged to
>>>> subscribe to a mailing list.
>>> How? Even with forums you need to subscribe.
>>>
>>>> 4) Many people consider mailing lists as spam and prefer not to subscribe
>>>> 5) Contributions have a longer visibility and older entries will get
>>>> responses
>>>> 6) Communication gets more efficient as the same topics won't get
>>>> repeatedly discussed
>>>> 7) To my experience forums get much better indexed by google as mail
>>>> collectors like Nabble , Markmail, e.t.c.
>>>> 8) Forums encourage user to user discussions and you will see new users
>>>> taking an active role
>>>> 9) There should be at least one additional category IMHO: administrators
>>>> 10) A forum is more pleasure to read once a topic split into many threads
>>>> 11) A forum is beneficial when expecting increasing support requirements
>>>> - some real large scale forums were run by just a few moderators
>>>> 12) More people will see what a teriffic job the XWiki team does.
>>>>
>>>> Here's my +1
>>> I have some good news for you: we already have a forum! :)
>>>
>>> See http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/MailingLists
>>> And more specifically:
>>> http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/Forum
>>>
>>> Now if this forum doesn't fit your needs could you explain what requirements you'd have for a forum and which solution you'd pick?
>>> I personally liked jive forums but it doesn't exist anymore (it's folded into a full collaboration suite now).
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> -Vincent
>> This was thoroughly discussed four years ago, and the conclusion was
>> against installing a specific forum, and stick with Nabble as a
>> forum-like view of the mailing list activity:
>> http://markmail.org/thread/gbdnyb7jbh4ha5ja
> Right I had forgotten about this discussion :)
>
> I do remember another one though (earlier than the one you pointed) where I was the one wanting a forum as a way to get more participation.
>
> What I'd really like to have that we don't currently have is a way to more visibly see who's participating more and thus encourage participation. A lot of forum do this by giving points to people who answer questions, then they get a title and a badge based on these points. Then you can list the top contributors.
>
> That said, thanks to markmail, I think our mailing lists have become a lot more browsable than before and we even get statistics:
> http://xwiki.markmail.org/search/?q=
>
> At some point in the past I looked at jive because it has this point system and it had the feature to be integrated on top of a mailing list. But since it disappeared I haven't found any other good option that would allow us to keep the list too.
>
> Now we have a real open question as to whether we want to keep our list AND create a getstatisfaction project for XWiki too (getsatisfaction or another similar tool). So far we've resisted doing this because it means scattering our support and thus reducing the support quality level (we cannot monitor several places easily). There are some guys who post and ask questions about xwiki on developez.com for example (see http://tinyurl.com/4ftdyly) but since we don't answer there I believe people either think xwiki is not well supported or they find their way to the official support location.
>
> One one hand I'd love to use a tool such as getsatisfaction, OTOH I don't know how we can manage properly both our lists + getsatisfaction.

getsatisfaction looks promising however it's not obvious to me if it's
good for the job and what's the relationship with Xwiki. However I
hadn't the time to drill deeper ...
Maybe you can give a pointer or more background information ?

If I were to select a tool my criteria would be:
- installation base, references and development activity
- should be known for good indexing by google although this might be
hard to prove and may not be that much a feature of the software
- a BIG plus (almost a requirement) would be a migration from the
existing mailing list history (although no idea how to find that out in
advance)
- a plus if familiar technology is used

If you are serious about further investigations I'd spend time on it -
I'd like to hear a clear voice about that.

Once upon a time i found xwiki by wikimatrix.org and now I'd give
forummatrix.org a try ...
... and of course if somebody already has more experiences with forum
software ...

and no - I'm not going to subscribe to all of those products
mailinglists just for this survey !

Andreas


> One solution would be to remove the user list and only keep the devs list and move users to getsatisfaction but I'm not sure how good or bad that would be.
>
> Anyone having any thoughts on this?
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>

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Re: Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

Arnaud bourree-2
my -1 contribution for same reasons as Paul Leibbrecht and Thomas Mortagne

Arnaud.
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Re: Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

Le Génie
In reply to this post by vmassol
This subject seems very controversial and I think it's an important point.
Thank you Andreas for submitting it.

+1 to remove the user list and move it to getsatisfaction.

Today, the XWiki community support using listserv is (imho) clearly a weak
point.
I don't know how Balsamiq or Jolicloud teams manage their work with
getsatisfaction but the result is very effective.

Maxime


2011/3/8 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>

>
> On Mar 8, 2011, at 3:04 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:
>
> > On 03/08/2011 07:45 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
> >> Hi Andreas,
> >>
> >> On Mar 7, 2011, at 11:13 PM, Andreas Hahn wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi everyone,
> >>>
> >>> I'd like to make the proposal to drop the existing mailing lists in
> >>> favor of a forum (bulletin board) software.
> >>>
> >>> The objective is to promote the XWiki community discussions to a
> broader
> >>> audience.
> >>>
> >>> 1) A forum serves like an advertising window as anyone can read the
> >>> contributions without subscription.
> >>
> >> You don't need any subscription to read mailing lists.
> >> See http://xwiki.markmail.org/
> >>
> >>> 2) Anyone can judge the activity by reading the view count.
> >>
> >> Same here:
> >> http://xwiki.markmail.org/
> >>
> >>> 3) New users can get in touch with the community without being urged to
> >>> subscribe to a mailing list.
> >>
> >> How? Even with forums you need to subscribe.
> >>
> >>> 4) Many people consider mailing lists as spam and prefer not to
> subscribe
> >>> 5) Contributions have a longer visibility and older entries will get
> >>> responses
> >>
> >>> 6) Communication gets more efficient as the same topics won't get
> >>> repeatedly discussed
> >>
> >>> 7) To my experience forums get much better indexed by google as mail
> >>> collectors like Nabble , Markmail, e.t.c.
> >>> 8) Forums encourage user to user discussions and you will see new users
> >>> taking an active role
> >>> 9) There should be at least one additional category IMHO:
> administrators
> >>> 10) A forum is more pleasure to read once a topic split into many
> threads
> >>> 11) A forum is beneficial when expecting increasing support
> requirements
> >>> - some real large scale forums were run by just a few moderators
> >>> 12) More people will see what a teriffic job the XWiki team does.
> >>>
> >>> Here's my +1
> >>
> >> I have some good news for you: we already have a forum! :)
> >>
> >> See http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/MailingLists
> >> And more specifically:
> >> http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/Forum
> >>
> >> Now if this forum doesn't fit your needs could you explain what
> requirements you'd have for a forum and which solution you'd pick?
> >> I personally liked jive forums but it doesn't exist anymore (it's folded
> into a full collaboration suite now).
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> -Vincent
> >
> > This was thoroughly discussed four years ago, and the conclusion was
> > against installing a specific forum, and stick with Nabble as a
> > forum-like view of the mailing list activity:
> > http://markmail.org/thread/gbdnyb7jbh4ha5ja
>
> Right I had forgotten about this discussion :)
>
> I do remember another one though (earlier than the one you pointed) where I
> was the one wanting a forum as a way to get more participation.
>
> What I'd really like to have that we don't currently have is a way to more
> visibly see who's participating more and thus encourage participation. A lot
> of forum do this by giving points to people who answer questions, then they
> get a title and a badge based on these points. Then you can list the top
> contributors.
>
> That said, thanks to markmail, I think our mailing lists have become a lot
> more browsable than before and we even get statistics:
> http://xwiki.markmail.org/search/?q=
>
> At some point in the past I looked at jive because it has this point system
> and it had the feature to be integrated on top of a mailing list. But since
> it disappeared I haven't found any other good option that would allow us to
> keep the list too.
>
> Now we have a real open question as to whether we want to keep our list AND
> create a getstatisfaction project for XWiki too (getsatisfaction or another
> similar tool). So far we've resisted doing this because it means scattering
> our support and thus reducing the support quality level (we cannot monitor
> several places easily). There are some guys who post and ask questions about
> xwiki on developez.com for example (see http://tinyurl.com/4ftdyly) but
> since we don't answer there I believe people either think xwiki is not well
> supported or they find their way to the official support location.
>
> One one hand I'd love to use a tool such as getsatisfaction, OTOH I don't
> know how we can manage properly both our lists + getsatisfaction.
>
> One solution would be to remove the user list and only keep the devs list
> and move users to getsatisfaction but I'm not sure how good or bad that
> would be.
>
> Anyone having any thoughts on this?
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>
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Re: Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

jstoldt
Hmmm, I think removing the user mailing list is not a necessity when moving to a bulleting board (like) user support. Keeping both has the benefit of allowing both ways for the user but comes with the disadvantage of distributed information (board and mailing list) and possibly more work for the devs/supporting users because they would have to check both. So this should probably be discussed.

Johannes
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Re: Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

Joris Dirks-2
To me, the ideal solution would be enhanced forum-functionality inside
XWiki. Not only for the this mailinglist (getting all conversation in
one place, linking discussions to the pages/features it concerns) but
for XWiki as a platform too.

I currently have no time to elaborate in a functional proposal, but
roughly: commenting works fine as-is online, but (mail) notification
of replies is lacking (chosing 'watch this page' is unsatisfactory).
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Re: Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

Andreas Hahn
In reply to this post by Andreas Hahn
Hi everyone,

as for your morning entertainment I'll tell a little shortstory.

Get yourself a coffee - relax - and a few mins to read and think about it.


Back in 2004  2 Java Developers that were upset about EJBs published a
book with their thoughts and recommendations about how J2EE software
developement should be done in their minds. The 2 guys were Rod Johnson
and Juergen Hoeller, the book was "J2EE Development without EJB", and
they created the spring framework. Right from the beginning they were
sharing their thoughts with a community that quickly became larger.
I think every Java Developer knows the rest of the story - spring is the
leading free open source framework used in enterprise java dev and it is
today a subdivision of VMWare.

Left aside I have liked it more in its earlier days when it was not so
crowded -
checking the numbers from their forums there are roughly 80.000 members,
the forum which is run by vBulletin flags 5.500 as active.
http://forum.springsource.org

The interesting story about that is that there was an impressive flow of
knowledge from the masterminds to the people that joined in in a way a
pyramid of knowledge was building up. The senior members trained the
newbies and the newbies trained the next generation and so on. Some
members had their own ideas and started subprojects - I remember about
security - workflow -webservices and toolSuite. Once these subprojects
got a certain size they became an own module in the spring ecosystem
with an own forum (and their initiators became employees of springsource
and later VMWare).

Why am I telling this ?

This apporach feels much more "community" to me as the XWiki
"community". The Xwiki community seems to be of 2 parts: On one side a
small group of people developing the code and giving answers. On the
other side questioners that soon drop out once their problem is solved.
I wouldn't regard those being part of a"community" - I'd say they are
"requesters" - users just having a service request.

It may have to do with the media we are using - mailing lists - which is
not encouraging to keep a thread active (or easily visible) over a
longer lifecycle. In the years I've been working on spring based
projects I have done very rare contributions (requests and answers) to
the forum - most of the time a solution to my problem could already be
found in the existing contributions. What irony that Sergiu was the only
one to remember/find out that this topic had been deeply discussed in 2007 ?

Of course you can't compare a framework like spring to a solution like
Xwiki and it may be due to the inspiration and charisma of Rod that so
many people followed his voice and helped to build a community. Although
he was not as democratic as the XWiki founders - a lot of things weren't
discussed with the community. In the end it has been to everybodys
benefit I guess.

Coming back to my topic i cannot imagine how they could have done it
just with a mailing list.

One final word on the concern that running 2 different systems (a
mailing list for devs and a forum for users) might be too much of a
burdon for the poeple maintaining it: As for the example of spring there
weren't these 2 systems - it was all transparent on the forums. And I'm
still very much for hoping this pyramid to build up - at least for the
users stuff - that would be a relief for the devs !

Please think about it and reconsider your votes

still here is my +1 for the forum (which one to be decided in another
thread)
with a seperate developers list or not


Andreas

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Re: Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

Paul Libbrecht-2
Andreas,

I am aware that web-forums may scale better in some ways.

All the complaints I and others have formulated about moving to web-forum relate to the ease of use of email-based traffic:

- receive all the forum posts per email
- respond to them by email

If it is possible to get at least these functions I think no-one will object of having the "main storage" be something different than a mailing-list and, indeed, it would allow us to use extra features of a web-forum to better manage (e.g. indicate interest or disinterest to a thread or a filter).

I have repeatedly attempted to set-up web-forums to this effect and I never managed to get this fully working. The refinement of the handling the mails and the errors of such a tool as mailman will be hard to beat.

Please contradict me!
Please review the arguments and see if they can be answered.

paul



Le 10 mars 2011 à 07:24, Andreas Hahn a écrit :

> Hi everyone,
>
> as for your morning entertainment I'll tell a little shortstory.
>
> Get yourself a coffee - relax - and a few mins to read and think about it.
>
>
> Back in 2004  2 Java Developers that were upset about EJBs published a
> book with their thoughts and recommendations about how J2EE software
> developement should be done in their minds. The 2 guys were Rod Johnson
> and Juergen Hoeller, the book was "J2EE Development without EJB", and [....]

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Re: Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

Sergiu Dumitriu-2
On 03/10/2011 05:39 PM, Paul Libbrecht wrote:

> Andreas,
>
> I am aware that web-forums may scale better in some ways.
>
> All the complaints I and others have formulated about moving to web-forum relate to the ease of use of email-based traffic:
>
> - receive all the forum posts per email
> - respond to them by email
>
> If it is possible to get at least these functions I think no-one will object of having the "main storage" be something different than a mailing-list and, indeed, it would allow us to use extra features of a web-forum to better manage (e.g. indicate interest or disinterest to a thread or a filter).

+1.

> I have repeatedly attempted to set-up web-forums to this effect and I never managed to get this fully working. The refinement of the handling the mails and the errors of such a tool as mailman will be hard to beat.
>
> Please contradict me!
> Please review the arguments and see if they can be answered.
>
> paul
>
>
>
> Le 10 mars 2011 à 07:24, Andreas Hahn a écrit :
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> as for your morning entertainment I'll tell a little shortstory.
>>
>> Get yourself a coffee - relax - and a few mins to read and think about it.
>>
>>
>> Back in 2004  2 Java Developers that were upset about EJBs published a
>> book with their thoughts and recommendations about how J2EE software
>> developement should be done in their minds. The 2 guys were Rod Johnson
>> and Juergen Hoeller, the book was "J2EE Development without EJB", and [....]


--
Sergiu Dumitriu
http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
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Re: Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

Andreas Hahn
In reply to this post by Paul Libbrecht-2
Am 10.03.2011 17:39, schrieb Paul Libbrecht:
> Please contradict me!
Paul,
actually - how could I do this ?
I'm not an expert in forum software so I'd to go for the naive approach
- comparing features e.t.c.

I was hoping for some insight that it is beneficial for the whole
project to encourage users first to browse and then to participate -
even if it means  for you and the others around here to give up beloved
habits.

Anyway - I'm not going to push you guys back to the future of Web 2.0.

Given the lame participation when compared to the survey 4 years ago it
seems to me that quite some people have already left the boat and it may
not matter anymore.

Andreas


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Re: Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software

vmassol
Administrator

On Mar 13, 2011, at 10:00 PM, Andreas Hahn wrote:

> Am 10.03.2011 17:39, schrieb Paul Libbrecht:
>> Please contradict me!
> Paul,
> actually - how could I do this ?
> I'm not an expert in forum software so I'd to go for the naive approach
> - comparing features e.t.c.
>
> I was hoping for some insight that it is beneficial for the whole
> project to encourage users first to browse and then to participate -
> even if it means  for you and the others around here to give up beloved
> habits.
>
> Anyway - I'm not going to push you guys back to the future of Web 2.0.
>
> Given the lame participation when compared to the survey 4 years ago it
> seems to me that quite some people have already left the boat and it may
> not matter anymore.

I'm not sure how to read your last 2 paragraphs.

Just note that fro my POV there's no "you" and "me" here. There's only a global community and you're part of it. That said at some point some people are going to need to work to make it happen, this is where the distinction will happen. How far are you willing to help? Maybe a first step would be that you help find either a forum software that fits the bill or a hosted service that would work for us.

From the people who answered so far my feeling is that:
* people seem to agree in general that at least for users a forum would be nicer
* since xwiki committers provide a substantial amount of answers to the user list as of today it would be nice that they can continue to have the information coming to me

My personal POV is indeed that I'd like a forum for both the participation part (ie awarding status/points to active participants to surface them) and the categorization part but indeed I don't see myself going to the forum so it has to come to me. I think this is easy to achieve since on forums like getsatisfaction you can subscribe to the whole forum and thus receive all posts. What would be even better is if I could post or reply by replying to the mail.

Now back to getsatisfaction I think before we could use it we'd need to check:
* are there any limitations for free open source forums? What's their position on open source?
* how can we get all the posts in a neutral and standard format should we want to move to another tool later on?

Thanks
-Vincent

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