Home Page - Use cases, proposals, what we have until now and what we want to achieve

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Home Page - Use cases, proposals, what we have until now and what we want to achieve

Eduard Moraru
Hi devs,

We have already had some discussions recently on how we can improve XWiki's
homepage.

After talking to Vincent in private, we have decided to come up with a set
of use cases/goals[1] that we want to have/achieve with the improvement of
the homepage so that we make sure that we all speak the same language and
consider all use cases when proposing something.

On the same page as the use cases[1], you have a link below for the
existing proposals[2] and each proposal that was discussed until now (I
added one too) is listed and compared to the use cases it had to cover.

Please have a look and tell us what you think about the use cases and the
analysis of each proposal.

This is not yet a vote, but just an attempt to get everybody on the same
boat in terms of expectations.

Thanks,
Eduard

----------
[1] http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageUseCases
[2] http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposals
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Re: Home Page - Use cases, proposals, what we have until now and what we want to achieve

Denis Gervalle-2
Hi Edouard,

I have started reading those proposals, and I am puzzled since the
proposals does not seems fully in relation with the UC described. Proposals
talk about UC1 to UC6 while only UC1 to UC5 are described.
Regards,

On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 3:48 PM, Eduard Moraru <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi devs,
>
> We have already had some discussions recently on how we can improve XWiki's
> homepage.
>
> After talking to Vincent in private, we have decided to come up with a set
> of use cases/goals[1] that we want to have/achieve with the improvement of
> the homepage so that we make sure that we all speak the same language and
> consider all use cases when proposing something.
>
> On the same page as the use cases[1], you have a link below for the
> existing proposals[2] and each proposal that was discussed until now (I
> added one too) is listed and compared to the use cases it had to cover.
>
> Please have a look and tell us what you think about the use cases and the
> analysis of each proposal.
>
> This is not yet a vote, but just an attempt to get everybody on the same
> boat in terms of expectations.
>
> Thanks,
> Eduard
>
> ----------
> [1] http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageUseCases
> [2] http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposals
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>



--
Denis Gervalle
SOFTEC sa - CEO
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Re: Home Page - Use cases, proposals, what we have until now and what we want to achieve

Eduard Moraru
Hi Denis,

I had failed to add the 6th use case (about flavors and overriding the
homepage) when I moved the content to design.xwiki.org

Thanks for noticing it and taking the time to read everything,
Eduard

On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 5:03 PM, Denis Gervalle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Edouard,
>
> I have started reading those proposals, and I am puzzled since the
> proposals does not seems fully in relation with the UC described. Proposals
> talk about UC1 to UC6 while only UC1 to UC5 are described.
> Regards,
>
> On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 3:48 PM, Eduard Moraru <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi devs,
> >
> > We have already had some discussions recently on how we can improve
> XWiki's
> > homepage.
> >
> > After talking to Vincent in private, we have decided to come up with a
> set
> > of use cases/goals[1] that we want to have/achieve with the improvement
> of
> > the homepage so that we make sure that we all speak the same language and
> > consider all use cases when proposing something.
> >
> > On the same page as the use cases[1], you have a link below for the
> > existing proposals[2] and each proposal that was discussed until now (I
> > added one too) is listed and compared to the use cases it had to cover.
> >
> > Please have a look and tell us what you think about the use cases and the
> > analysis of each proposal.
> >
> > This is not yet a vote, but just an attempt to get everybody on the same
> > boat in terms of expectations.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Eduard
> >
> > ----------
> > [1] http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageUseCases
> > [2] http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposals
> > _______________________________________________
> > devs mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Denis Gervalle
> SOFTEC sa - CEO
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: Home Page - Use cases, proposals, what we have until now and what we want to achieve

Eduard Moraru
Bumping this thread so we strike while the iron is hot.

Any notes on the existing proposals? Anything to add, anything to remove?
Is that the best we can do?

If the answers are "no, no, yes" then is it the time to move to a vote with
the current proposals?

Thanks,
Eduard

On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 5:12 PM, Eduard Moraru <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Denis,
>
> I had failed to add the 6th use case (about flavors and overriding the
> homepage) when I moved the content to design.xwiki.org
>
> Thanks for noticing it and taking the time to read everything,
> Eduard
>
> On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 5:03 PM, Denis Gervalle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Edouard,
>>
>> I have started reading those proposals, and I am puzzled since the
>> proposals does not seems fully in relation with the UC described.
>> Proposals
>> talk about UC1 to UC6 while only UC1 to UC5 are described.
>> Regards,
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 3:48 PM, Eduard Moraru <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi devs,
>> >
>> > We have already had some discussions recently on how we can improve
>> XWiki's
>> > homepage.
>> >
>> > After talking to Vincent in private, we have decided to come up with a
>> set
>> > of use cases/goals[1] that we want to have/achieve with the improvement
>> of
>> > the homepage so that we make sure that we all speak the same language
>> and
>> > consider all use cases when proposing something.
>> >
>> > On the same page as the use cases[1], you have a link below for the
>> > existing proposals[2] and each proposal that was discussed until now (I
>> > added one too) is listed and compared to the use cases it had to cover.
>> >
>> > Please have a look and tell us what you think about the use cases and
>> the
>> > analysis of each proposal.
>> >
>> > This is not yet a vote, but just an attempt to get everybody on the same
>> > boat in terms of expectations.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Eduard
>> >
>> > ----------
>> > [1] http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageUseCases
>> > [2] http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposals
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > devs mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Denis Gervalle
>> SOFTEC sa - CEO
>> _______________________________________________
>> devs mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>>
>
>
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Re: Home Page - Use cases, proposals, what we have until now and what we want to achieve

Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau
Hi.

= Proposal 1 =
Still too technical IMO.
The first time you edit a page, you edit either the Sandbox or the Main
page. When you do it, you expect to learn once for all how to edit a page.

But what happens: you are not editing a page but using the Dashboard
application. Even worse: you are not using the dashboard macro, you are
including it via a macro and you cannot change it directly in the WYSWYG
editor.

Conclusion: too much concepts to learn and nothing feels "natural". We are
far far away from the "iPhone experience" where everything feels so
natural: start an application, scroll inside a window, resize an image...

I think the natural way to discover a wiki is (in this order):
1 - Learn to edit a page
2 - Then learn what is a space and a wiki
3 - Discover the other content (ie: navigation)
4 - Learn how to use the other applications
5 - Customize the home page

Moving from one step to the other should be easy. That is how I expect a
wiki to work, and this was basically the first things I have done when I
have started XWiki the first time (+ going to the administration to
discover all the options).

= Proposal 2 =

It is a bit like a workaround. Everything is complex but we offer an helper
to easily replace the content of the home page. It does not fix the problem
we have with the dashboard application or the wysiwyg editor, but it is a
bit less terrible that what we have today.

= Proposal 3 =

To me it is the best option. A very simple page (KISS) that explains what
the wiki is, and that the user is not afraid to edit (like the Sandbox)
even if we should encourage the user to use the sandbox to do her tests.

The user could still go to the dashboard application to enjoy all its
features, and it could make it more clear that the Dashboard is a special
application with a special editing : it is on its own space and we discover
it after having learnt how to do basic stuffs.

It does not fix all the use cases though.

= Proposal 4 =

Retro-compatibility issue but I like it + a button on every page "set me as
the main page" (like the "fork me on github" buttons).

But this proposal is not enough.

= Proposal 5 =

I like it. Even if I don't like the wizards in general, I think it is still
the best option regarding the complexity of XWiki.

= Conclusion =

To me the solution is a mix of P3, P4 and P5. Of course P1 should be fixed
too,
but it is not the priority to make XWiki easier to use.

Thanks,
Guillaume
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Re: Home Page - Use cases, proposals, what we have until now and what we want to achieve

jerem
Hi all,

After having read all proposals, personally I prefer proposal #1.
To avoid issue with editing dashboard as it is included from another page,
I would clearly remove this inclusion and make Main.WebHome a real
(autonomous) dashboard with no link with Main.Dashboard. There is room for
2 dashboards (the wiki dashboard and the wiki home page dashboard :) ).
I prefer this proposal because it improves long-running "issues" (or
limitations) of the wysiwyg editor, which on another side is great.

I also prefer it because IMHO editing macros should feel natural in XWiki
because they are a great feature and there is / should be nothing technical
with a rendering macro.
For wysiwyg/inline, I'm not sure why, when you are not advanced user, you
can't choose between both. To me "edit" action should default to wysiwyg
(or wiki depending on configuration), and IF there is some content that can
be edited inline, you should have something else to click (button, link,
pencil icon ...) to edit it "inline" and it switches the whole page to
inline mode.
Also "Edit / Inline form" is weird name in some cases, when I edit inline
the dashboard, I don't feel I'm editing a form...

Proposal #2: to me a proper UI for the include macro configuration in
wysiwyg (so, proposal #1), could in the end be very similar to this
proposal (like, I click edit, it opens wysiwyg, I click edit on include
macro, and I can select a page from a list or table or a page suggest or
whatever).

Proposal #3: I like the part about explaining the concepts, but it could be
done without removing the dashboard, in fact it seems to be 2 different
things. Also it's nice to have those descriptions on home page, but when
first user has read them (wether he's the admin or not), when he customize
the page he will remove them and ... they'll be lost for all other users ?
I'd prefer to have a question-mark icon somewhere to click to get some
help, that would start with explaining xwiki concepts, and then provide
some links to go deeper.

By the way it's surprising, on a fresh XWiki install, to see that there is
no "help" entry nowhere in the UI, not any question-mark icon, or help menu
entry. You get some help only once you edit a page, and only on wiki syntax.
There is the "Getting started" link on the default home page, but it
contains mainly a screenshot of the default home page (that I could have
changed already, so for new comers of my site, this getting started would
be confusing) with some numbers, difficult to consult as I have to scroll
to see the numbers and their description.
To me xwiki is not just a site or just a wiki, it's a highly interactive
site, with many features from "basic" to "very advanced": it deserves a
better help system ;-)
(note: just discovered the help center proposal [1] below, see comments on
proposal #5 also)

Proposal #4: I don't see how it solves issue with editing home page, it
merely simplifies peeking any page as a home page.
Along with proposal #2, I would say that everyone seem to find that there
are too many concepts, too technical, etc, but those proposals continue to
add new concepts on top of existing ones, and are pretty much useless if
it's deadly simple to edit an include macro.
Also I find it buries navigation inside configuration, and destroys habit
of current users about "WebHome is a home page".
It also seems like a workaround, like: "if it's hard to edit a page, peek
another one".

Proposal #5: I really like the Help Center proposal [1] in fact :) But I
think it's // with other proposals in fact, having more help won't solve
home page editing issues, but it could greatly improve overall end-user
experience (in any case).

BR,
Jeremie

[1] - http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/HelpCenter


2014-10-13 11:27 GMT+02:00 Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau <
[hidden email]>:

> Hi.
>
> = Proposal 1 =
> Still too technical IMO.
> The first time you edit a page, you edit either the Sandbox or the Main
> page. When you do it, you expect to learn once for all how to edit a page.
>
> But what happens: you are not editing a page but using the Dashboard
> application. Even worse: you are not using the dashboard macro, you are
> including it via a macro and you cannot change it directly in the WYSWYG
> editor.
>
> Conclusion: too much concepts to learn and nothing feels "natural". We are
> far far away from the "iPhone experience" where everything feels so
> natural: start an application, scroll inside a window, resize an image...
>
> I think the natural way to discover a wiki is (in this order):
> 1 - Learn to edit a page
> 2 - Then learn what is a space and a wiki
> 3 - Discover the other content (ie: navigation)
> 4 - Learn how to use the other applications
> 5 - Customize the home page
>
> Moving from one step to the other should be easy. That is how I expect a
> wiki to work, and this was basically the first things I have done when I
> have started XWiki the first time (+ going to the administration to
> discover all the options).
>
> = Proposal 2 =
>
> It is a bit like a workaround. Everything is complex but we offer an helper
> to easily replace the content of the home page. It does not fix the problem
> we have with the dashboard application or the wysiwyg editor, but it is a
> bit less terrible that what we have today.
>
> = Proposal 3 =
>
> To me it is the best option. A very simple page (KISS) that explains what
> the wiki is, and that the user is not afraid to edit (like the Sandbox)
> even if we should encourage the user to use the sandbox to do her tests.
>
> The user could still go to the dashboard application to enjoy all its
> features, and it could make it more clear that the Dashboard is a special
> application with a special editing : it is on its own space and we discover
> it after having learnt how to do basic stuffs.
>
> It does not fix all the use cases though.
>
> = Proposal 4 =
>
> Retro-compatibility issue but I like it + a button on every page "set me as
> the main page" (like the "fork me on github" buttons).
>
> But this proposal is not enough.
>
> = Proposal 5 =
>
> I like it. Even if I don't like the wizards in general, I think it is still
> the best option regarding the complexity of XWiki.
>
> = Conclusion =
>
> To me the solution is a mix of P3, P4 and P5. Of course P1 should be fixed
> too,
> but it is not the priority to make XWiki easier to use.
>
> Thanks,
> Guillaume
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: Home Page - Use cases, proposals, what we have until now and what we want to achieve

Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau
Hello.

I have again a new argument against using the dashboard and the include
macro in the main page.

When the user uses the "Inline" editor to change some gadgets, she can not
use the rollback action of the main page to cancel her changes. She has to
go to the Dashboard page first, and then rollback her changes from there.

Having an include macro in the default page is absolutely not intuitive,
even if you make it appears more clearly.

Thanks,
Guillaume
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Re: Home Page - Use cases, proposals, what we have until now and what we want to achieve

Eduard Moraru
Hi,

2 new proposals (P6 and P7) have been made recently. I did not yet get the
chance to add comments/analysis on them. Feel free to do it in the
meanwhile if anybody wants to.

A few notes on Jeremie's "Proposal7: DistrbutionWizard sets the homepage of
a flavor and the Help App teaches users" [2]:

Personally, I find it a rather elegant solution based on separation of
concerns. However, you need to be aware that it is a medium/long term
objective.

The way I understood it is that we delegate the task of choosing a homepage
to the DistributionWizard that will most likely be in charge of offering
the user flavor options. At that point, the homepage of the current wiki
will be the homepage of the user selected flavor. Optionally, we can also
propose to use a blank page as homepage if the user wants, however this
might be a bit of an overkill, since the user can easily edit the page and
trash everything.

The task of teaching the user is delegated exclusively to the Help
Application, with the note that the application will also be proposed to
the user to be redirected to, as a final step in the DW (after the
installation of the user selected flavor is complete).

All of this assumes that we have a properly working Flavors feature and
Help Application. However, what should we do in the meanwhile for the
default XWiki Enterprise UI / Flavor / build? Should we postpone yet again
any work on the homepage until we have the needed elements to delegate the
problematic aspects, or should we do something about it in the meanwhile?

Thanks,
Eduard

----------
[1] http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposals
[2]
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal7DistrbutionWizardsetsthehomepageofaflavorandtheHelpAppteachesusers

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello.
>
> I have again a new argument against using the dashboard and the include
> macro in the main page.
>
> When the user uses the "Inline" editor to change some gadgets, she can not
> use the rollback action of the main page to cancel her changes. She has to
> go to the Dashboard page first, and then rollback her changes from there.
>
> Having an include macro in the default page is absolutely not intuitive,
> even if you make it appears more clearly.
>
> Thanks,
> Guillaume
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: Home Page - Use cases, proposals, what we have until now and what we want to achieve

vmassol
Administrator
Hi,

On 24 Oct 2014 at 21:18:31, Eduard Moraru ([hidden email](mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:

> Hi,
>  
> 2 new proposals (P6 and P7) have been made recently. I did not yet get the
> chance to add comments/analysis on them. Feel free to do it in the
> meanwhile if anybody wants to.
>  
> A few notes on Jeremie's "Proposal7: DistrbutionWizard sets the homepage of
> a flavor and the Help App teaches users" [2]:
>  
> Personally, I find it a rather elegant solution based on separation of
> concerns. However, you need to be aware that it is a medium/long term
> objective.
>  
> The way I understood it is that we delegate the task of choosing a homepage
> to the DistributionWizard that will most likely be in charge of offering
> the user flavor options. At that point, the homepage of the current wiki
> will be the homepage of the user selected flavor. Optionally, we can also
> propose to use a blank page as homepage if the user wants, however this
> might be a bit of an overkill, since the user can easily edit the page and
> trash everything.

The DW should not know at all about any page. It should be up to the flavor to define the wiki pages it will contain and install. Each flavor should propose its own home page.

BTW there’s also another variation for the home page that hasn’t been discussed yet:
* Make the home page special by not making it editable (and without any docextra tabs at the bottom). So no rollback issue/edit weirdness.
* Only admins can change it and only through the Admin UI (basically decide which space home page to display on the wiki home page).
* Somewhere in the content of the default home page or through the first time wizard, direct the users to the Sandbox page to try it out editing (since this is what Sandbox is for!)

Thanks
-Vincent

> The task of teaching the user is delegated exclusively to the Help
> Application, with the note that the application will also be proposed to
> the user to be redirected to, as a final step in the DW (after the
> installation of the user selected flavor is complete).
>  
> All of this assumes that we have a properly working Flavors feature and
> Help Application. However, what should we do in the meanwhile for the
> default XWiki Enterprise UI / Flavor / build? Should we postpone yet again
> any work on the homepage until we have the needed elements to delegate the
> problematic aspects, or should we do something about it in the meanwhile?
>  
> Thanks,
> Eduard
>  
> ----------
> [1] http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposals
> [2]
> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal7DistrbutionWizardsetsthehomepageofaflavorandtheHelpAppteachesusers
>  
> On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>  
> > Hello.
> >
> > I have again a new argument against using the dashboard and the include
> > macro in the main page.
> >
> > When the user uses the "Inline" editor to change some gadgets, she can not
> > use the rollback action of the main page to cancel her changes. She has to
> > go to the Dashboard page first, and then rollback her changes from there.
> >
> > Having an include macro in the default page is absolutely not intuitive,
> > even if you make it appears more clearly.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Guillaume
> > _______________________________________________
> > devs mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
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Re: Home Page - Use cases, proposals, what we have until now and what we want to achieve

Eduard Moraru
Hi Vincent,

On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 11:05 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 24 Oct 2014 at 21:18:31, Eduard Moraru ([hidden email](mailto:
> [hidden email])) wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > 2 new proposals (P6 and P7) have been made recently. I did not yet get
> the
> > chance to add comments/analysis on them. Feel free to do it in the
> > meanwhile if anybody wants to.
> >
> > A few notes on Jeremie's "Proposal7: DistrbutionWizard sets the homepage
> of
> > a flavor and the Help App teaches users" [2]:
> >
> > Personally, I find it a rather elegant solution based on separation of
> > concerns. However, you need to be aware that it is a medium/long term
> > objective.
> >
> > The way I understood it is that we delegate the task of choosing a
> homepage
> > to the DistributionWizard that will most likely be in charge of offering
> > the user flavor options. At that point, the homepage of the current wiki
> > will be the homepage of the user selected flavor. Optionally, we can also
> > propose to use a blank page as homepage if the user wants, however this
> > might be a bit of an overkill, since the user can easily edit the page
> and
> > trash everything.
>
> The DW should not know at all about any page. It should be up to the
> flavor to define the wiki pages it will contain and install. Each flavor
> should propose its own home page.
>

Maybe I did not choose the best words, but the way I understood it (and
tried to reformulate it) was not that the DW explicitly allows you to
select a homepage, but that indirectly, through allowing you to install a
flavor, it will additionally do the job (again, indirectly) of making you
choose a homepage (through the flavor you have selected).

It was just a high level view on the direction to follow, and not a
specific technical aspect, so no reason to -1 it, right?


> BTW there’s also another variation for the home page that hasn’t been
> discussed yet:
> * Make the home page special by not making it editable (and without any
> docextra tabs at the bottom). So no rollback issue/edit weirdness.
> * Only admins can change it and only through the Admin UI (basically
> decide which space home page to display on the wiki home page).
> * Somewhere in the content of the default home page or through the first
> time wizard, direct the users to the Sandbox page to try it out editing
> (since this is what Sandbox is for!)
>

Adding this too and I think we`re good for going forward with a vote, since
we have plenty of proposals.

Thanks,
Eduard

>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> > The task of teaching the user is delegated exclusively to the Help
> > Application, with the note that the application will also be proposed to
> > the user to be redirected to, as a final step in the DW (after the
> > installation of the user selected flavor is complete).
> >
> > All of this assumes that we have a properly working Flavors feature and
> > Help Application. However, what should we do in the meanwhile for the
> > default XWiki Enterprise UI / Flavor / build? Should we postpone yet
> again
> > any work on the homepage until we have the needed elements to delegate
> the
> > problematic aspects, or should we do something about it in the meanwhile?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Eduard
> >
> > ----------
> > [1] http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposals
> > [2]
> >
> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal7DistrbutionWizardsetsthehomepageofaflavorandtheHelpAppteachesusers
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello.
> > >
> > > I have again a new argument against using the dashboard and the include
> > > macro in the main page.
> > >
> > > When the user uses the "Inline" editor to change some gadgets, she can
> not
> > > use the rollback action of the main page to cancel her changes. She
> has to
> > > go to the Dashboard page first, and then rollback her changes from
> there.
> > >
> > > Having an include macro in the default page is absolutely not
> intuitive,
> > > even if you make it appears more clearly.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Guillaume
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > devs mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > devs mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: Home Page - Use cases, proposals, what we have until now and what we want to achieve

jerem
Hi,
Le 28 oct. 2014 19:39, "Eduard Moraru" <[hidden email]> a écrit :

>
> Hi Vincent,
>
> On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 11:05 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > On 24 Oct 2014 at 21:18:31, Eduard Moraru ([hidden email](mailto:
> > [hidden email])) wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > 2 new proposals (P6 and P7) have been made recently. I did not yet get
> > the
> > > chance to add comments/analysis on them. Feel free to do it in the
> > > meanwhile if anybody wants to.
> > >
> > > A few notes on Jeremie's "Proposal7: DistrbutionWizard sets the
homepage

> > of
> > > a flavor and the Help App teaches users" [2]:
> > >
> > > Personally, I find it a rather elegant solution based on separation of
> > > concerns. However, you need to be aware that it is a medium/long term
> > > objective.
> > >
> > > The way I understood it is that we delegate the task of choosing a
> > homepage
> > > to the DistributionWizard that will most likely be in charge of
offering
> > > the user flavor options. At that point, the homepage of the current
wiki
> > > will be the homepage of the user selected flavor. Optionally, we can
also
> > > propose to use a blank page as homepage if the user wants, however
this

> > > might be a bit of an overkill, since the user can easily edit the page
> > and
> > > trash everything.
> >
> > The DW should not know at all about any page. It should be up to the
> > flavor to define the wiki pages it will contain and install. Each flavor
> > should propose its own home page.
> >
>
> Maybe I did not choose the best words, but the way I understood it (and
> tried to reformulate it) was not that the DW explicitly allows you to
> select a homepage, but that indirectly, through allowing you to install a
> flavor, it will additionally do the job (again, indirectly) of making you
> choose a homepage (through the flavor you have selected).

Yes that was the idea, possibly:
- DW doesn't have to know pages or set homepage
- there could be a new wizard, similar to wizards for new page / space from
template, that allows choosing a kind of homepage (empty, wiki concepts,
dashboard, etc)
- a flavor also adds its homepage as a possible "template"
- btw it could be exactly the new space from template page, but with more
choices than current (empty / dashboard)
- following a dw run and a flavor installation, this "new Main space
homepage from template" wizard is triggered and displayed (or just proposed
to user through a button or link), and allows user to either choose default
homepage of the flavor, or use another one
- current (or reworked) homepage is just the default home of the default
flavor (which is the current XE xar)

Maybe instead of all this, it could be enough to unrelate the "new space"
and "apply space homepage template" features ?
So I would just have to call "space / apply template" to replace the
homepage of any space already existing (including Main obviously) ?

>
> It was just a high level view on the direction to follow, and not a
> specific technical aspect, so no reason to -1 it, right?
>
>
> > BTW there’s also another variation for the home page that hasn’t been
> > discussed yet:
> > * Make the home page special by not making it editable (and without any
> > docextra tabs at the bottom). So no rollback issue/edit weirdness.
> > * Only admins can change it and only through the Admin UI (basically
> > decide which space home page to display on the wiki home page).
> > * Somewhere in the content of the default home page or through the first
> > time wizard, direct the users to the Sandbox page to try it out editing
> > (since this is what Sandbox is for!)
> >
>
> Adding this too and I think we`re good for going forward with a vote,
since

> we have plenty of proposals.
>
> Thanks,
> Eduard
>
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> >
> > > The task of teaching the user is delegated exclusively to the Help
> > > Application, with the note that the application will also be proposed
to
> > > the user to be redirected to, as a final step in the DW (after the
> > > installation of the user selected flavor is complete).
> > >
> > > All of this assumes that we have a properly working Flavors feature
and
> > > Help Application. However, what should we do in the meanwhile for the
> > > default XWiki Enterprise UI / Flavor / build? Should we postpone yet
> > again
> > > any work on the homepage until we have the needed elements to delegate
> > the
> > > problematic aspects, or should we do something about it in the
meanwhile?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Eduard
> > >
> > > ----------
> > > [1] http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposals
> > > [2]
> > >
> >
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal7DistrbutionWizardsetsthehomepageofaflavorandtheHelpAppteachesusers
> > >
> > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau <
> > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello.
> > > >
> > > > I have again a new argument against using the dashboard and the
include
> > > > macro in the main page.
> > > >
> > > > When the user uses the "Inline" editor to change some gadgets, she
can

> > not
> > > > use the rollback action of the main page to cancel her changes. She
> > has to
> > > > go to the Dashboard page first, and then rollback her changes from
> > there.
> > > >
> > > > Having an include macro in the default page is absolutely not
> > intuitive,
> > > > even if you make it appears more clearly.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Guillaume
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > devs mailing list
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > devs mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> > _______________________________________________
> > devs mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
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Re: Home Page - Use cases, proposals, what we have until now and what we want to achieve

vmassol
Administrator
 




On 28 Oct 2014 at 20:28:15, Jeremie BOUSQUET ([hidden email](mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:

> Hi,
> Le 28 oct. 2014 19:39, "Eduard Moraru" a écrit :
> >
> > Hi Vincent,
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 11:05 AM, [hidden email]  
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > On 24 Oct 2014 at 21:18:31, Eduard Moraru ([hidden email](mailto:
> > > [hidden email])) wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > 2 new proposals (P6 and P7) have been made recently. I did not yet get
> > > the
> > > > chance to add comments/analysis on them. Feel free to do it in the
> > > > meanwhile if anybody wants to.
> > > >
> > > > A few notes on Jeremie's "Proposal7: DistrbutionWizard sets the
> homepage
> > > of
> > > > a flavor and the Help App teaches users" [2]:
> > > >
> > > > Personally, I find it a rather elegant solution based on separation of
> > > > concerns. However, you need to be aware that it is a medium/long term
> > > > objective.
> > > >
> > > > The way I understood it is that we delegate the task of choosing a
> > > homepage
> > > > to the DistributionWizard that will most likely be in charge of
> offering
> > > > the user flavor options. At that point, the homepage of the current
> wiki
> > > > will be the homepage of the user selected flavor. Optionally, we can
> also
> > > > propose to use a blank page as homepage if the user wants, however
> this
> > > > might be a bit of an overkill, since the user can easily edit the page
> > > and
> > > > trash everything.
> > >
> > > The DW should not know at all about any page. It should be up to the
> > > flavor to define the wiki pages it will contain and install. Each flavor
> > > should propose its own home page.
> > >
> >
> > Maybe I did not choose the best words, but the way I understood it (and
> > tried to reformulate it) was not that the DW explicitly allows you to
> > select a homepage, but that indirectly, through allowing you to install a
> > flavor, it will additionally do the job (again, indirectly) of making you
> > choose a homepage (through the flavor you have selected).
>  
> Yes that was the idea, possibly:
> - DW doesn't have to know pages or set homepage
> - there could be a new wizard, similar to wizards for new page / space from
> template, that allows choosing a kind of homepage (empty, wiki concepts,
> dashboard, etc)
> - a flavor also adds its homepage as a possible "template"
> - btw it could be exactly the new space from template page, but with more
> choices than current (empty / dashboard)
> - following a dw run and a flavor installation, this "new Main space
> homepage from template" wizard is triggered and displayed (or just proposed
> to user through a button or link), and allows user to either choose default
> homepage of the flavor, or use another one
> - current (or reworked) homepage is just the default home of the default
> flavor (which is the current XE xar)

ok but:

1) it’s complex since it means that a flavor would need to register some kind of post install script to execute (which is something we don’t really have)
2) it negates a bit the point of a flavor which is to propose a defined “theme” and thus a defined home page matching that theme
3) it doesn’t solve anything since once you select a default homepage you still need a way to change it afterwards if you want to change it…

I don’t see how this is much better than having a Admin UI allowing you to change the home page you wish to have. However it’s a lot more complex (and really marginally better).

> Maybe instead of all this, it could be enough to unrelate the "new space"
> and "apply space homepage template" features ?
> So I would just have to call "space / apply template" to replace the
> homepage of any space already existing (including Main obviously) ?

Yes that’s better already IMO but then it should be a menu option to replace any page content with a page template.

Thanks
-Vincent

> > It was just a high level view on the direction to follow, and not a
> > specific technical aspect, so no reason to -1 it, right?
> >
> >
> > > BTW there’s also another variation for the home page that hasn’t been
> > > discussed yet:
> > > * Make the home page special by not making it editable (and without any
> > > docextra tabs at the bottom). So no rollback issue/edit weirdness.
> > > * Only admins can change it and only through the Admin UI (basically
> > > decide which space home page to display on the wiki home page).
> > > * Somewhere in the content of the default home page or through the first
> > > time wizard, direct the users to the Sandbox page to try it out editing
> > > (since this is what Sandbox is for!)
> > >
> >
> > Adding this too and I think we`re good for going forward with a vote,
> since
> > we have plenty of proposals.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Eduard
> >
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > -Vincent
> > >
> > > > The task of teaching the user is delegated exclusively to the Help
> > > > Application, with the note that the application will also be proposed
> to
> > > > the user to be redirected to, as a final step in the DW (after the
> > > > installation of the user selected flavor is complete).
> > > >
> > > > All of this assumes that we have a properly working Flavors feature
> and
> > > > Help Application. However, what should we do in the meanwhile for the
> > > > default XWiki Enterprise UI / Flavor / build? Should we postpone yet
> > > again
> > > > any work on the homepage until we have the needed elements to delegate
> > > the
> > > > problematic aspects, or should we do something about it in the
> meanwhile?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Eduard
> > > >
> > > > ----------
> > > > [1] http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposals
> > > > [2]
> > > >
> > >
> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal7DistrbutionWizardsetsthehomepageofaflavorandtheHelpAppteachesusers
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau <
> > > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hello.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have again a new argument against using the dashboard and the
> include
> > > > > macro in the main page.
> > > > >
> > > > > When the user uses the "Inline" editor to change some gadgets, she
> can
> > > not
> > > > > use the rollback action of the main page to cancel her changes. She
> > > has to
> > > > > go to the Dashboard page first, and then rollback her changes from
> > > there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Having an include macro in the default page is absolutely not
> > > intuitive,
> > > > > even if you make it appears more clearly.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Guillaume
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
[hidden email]
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Re: Home Page - Use cases, proposals, what we have until now and what we want to achieve

jerem
Hi,

2014-10-28 21:08 GMT+01:00 [hidden email] <[hidden email]>:

>
>
>
>
>
> On 28 Oct 2014 at 20:28:15, Jeremie BOUSQUET ([hidden email]
> (mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > Le 28 oct. 2014 19:39, "Eduard Moraru" a écrit :
> > >
> > > Hi Vincent,
> > >
> > > On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 11:05 AM, [hidden email]
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > On 24 Oct 2014 at 21:18:31, Eduard Moraru ([hidden email]
> (mailto:
> > > > [hidden email])) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > 2 new proposals (P6 and P7) have been made recently. I did not yet
> get
> > > > the
> > > > > chance to add comments/analysis on them. Feel free to do it in the
> > > > > meanwhile if anybody wants to.
> > > > >
> > > > > A few notes on Jeremie's "Proposal7: DistrbutionWizard sets the
> > homepage
> > > > of
> > > > > a flavor and the Help App teaches users" [2]:
> > > > >
> > > > > Personally, I find it a rather elegant solution based on
> separation of
> > > > > concerns. However, you need to be aware that it is a medium/long
> term
> > > > > objective.
> > > > >
> > > > > The way I understood it is that we delegate the task of choosing a
> > > > homepage
> > > > > to the DistributionWizard that will most likely be in charge of
> > offering
> > > > > the user flavor options. At that point, the homepage of the current
> > wiki
> > > > > will be the homepage of the user selected flavor. Optionally, we
> can
> > also
> > > > > propose to use a blank page as homepage if the user wants, however
> > this
> > > > > might be a bit of an overkill, since the user can easily edit the
> page
> > > > and
> > > > > trash everything.
> > > >
> > > > The DW should not know at all about any page. It should be up to the
> > > > flavor to define the wiki pages it will contain and install. Each
> flavor
> > > > should propose its own home page.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Maybe I did not choose the best words, but the way I understood it (and
> > > tried to reformulate it) was not that the DW explicitly allows you to
> > > select a homepage, but that indirectly, through allowing you to
> install a
> > > flavor, it will additionally do the job (again, indirectly) of making
> you
> > > choose a homepage (through the flavor you have selected).
> >
> > Yes that was the idea, possibly:
> > - DW doesn't have to know pages or set homepage
> > - there could be a new wizard, similar to wizards for new page / space
> from
> > template, that allows choosing a kind of homepage (empty, wiki concepts,
> > dashboard, etc)
> > - a flavor also adds its homepage as a possible "template"
> > - btw it could be exactly the new space from template page, but with more
> > choices than current (empty / dashboard)
> > - following a dw run and a flavor installation, this "new Main space
> > homepage from template" wizard is triggered and displayed (or just
> proposed
> > to user through a button or link), and allows user to either choose
> default
> > homepage of the flavor, or use another one
> > - current (or reworked) homepage is just the default home of the default
> > flavor (which is the current XE xar)
>
> ok but:
>
> 1) it’s complex since it means that a flavor would need to register some
> kind of post install script to execute (which is something we don’t really
> have)
>

Depends, I was thinking more about a specific event like "flavor installed"
or "extension installed" or "wiki installed / updated". I'm not sure to get
what you would need to do in this post install script ?
But it could be completely "manual" or just a link at the end of DW to some
possible post-install stuff (like, consult help, manage home page, etc).

I'd like to apologize here because my "proposal" was more an idea than a
well formalized proposal, even if it ended up in the list of proposals,
it's obvious that it misses some thoughts and clarifications... (I
understand your -1).


> 2) it negates a bit the point of a flavor which is to propose a defined
> “theme” and thus a defined home page matching that theme
>

Well, if you consider that current UI of XE is the default xwiki "flavor",
this is exactly what it's about when we talk about switching home page
easily, isn't it ? We want to let user set a home page that doesn't match
the default theme freely. Obviously this default theme is not very
"thematic" as it's the default and should be versatile ...
Home page matching that theme could still be the mostly recommended choice.
BTW a flavor, with such mechanism, could provide several "home page"
variants and not only one, depending on the case.
If I take the case of a flavor based on the Mail archive (or the mail
archive extension alone, say), it already provides different views as the
app home page (timeline, livetable, etc). Currently the switch is done
through conditional include. Currently that app home page is
MailArchive.WebHome, if I could register it as a possible home page
template, it would avoid having to rename it "Main.WebHome" to make it a
flavor (and potentially destroy existing wiki home page by mistake when you
install that extension/flavor), and I could fullfill both installation
use-cases (of using it as an app among others in some wiki, and as a
wiki-wide-flavor in another wiki or subwiki), from the same xar bundled app.
Again, here, I talk about possibilities and use-cases that seem logical or
interesting to me if I dig into my proposal, but I really don't know if
it's a good path or even a good idea for xwiki - I may not have the big
picture :)
Also, the proposal certainly does not offer any solution for short-term (if
you consider it provides options for long-term ;-) )


> 3) it doesn’t solve anything since once you select a default homepage you
> still need a way to change it afterwards if you want to change it…
>

There was the side-idea of the proposal (not well formulated, maybe was
just in my mind) that this wizard and/or DW could be triggered at any later
time by an admin if he wants to replace homepage with some other "default"
content. Maybe could be seen as a "personalization" step following a new
wiki install or upgrade, but that could be triggered at any later time to
"re-personalize" his wiki. I would put this then also as a feature in admin
UI.
The difference with some other proposals, is that it would not be an action
available from the standard UI but limited to a post-install step and the
admin UI (not like the variant below).


>
> I don’t see how this is much better than having a Admin UI allowing you to
> change the home page you wish to have. However it’s a lot more complex (and
> really marginally better).
>
> > Maybe instead of all this, it could be enough to unrelate the "new space"
> > and "apply space homepage template" features ?
> > So I would just have to call "space / apply template" to replace the
> > homepage of any space already existing (including Main obviously) ?
>
> Yes that’s better already IMO but then it should be a menu option to
> replace any page content with a page template.
>

I'm not sure if you talk about an additional option, or an option that
would replace the "space /apply template" by a more generic "page / apply
template", but I don't think anyway that a page template is the same thing
as a home page template (whether it's a space or wiki home page). You'd
seldom want to use a blog post as a home page ...

In this variant, there's still the question, if applying such template is
considered an admin operation or not. If it's an admin operation, you also
proposed to start moving those admin actions to the admin UI, which is -
sort of - what was my proposal about in first place :) (I didn't talk
specifically about admin UI at that time, but about avoiding to crowd
standard UI menus with unfrequent/admin operations).
That being said I don't think it's an admin action, if you need to protect
home page, as an admin you can set specific rights and forbid this "apply
template" to people that don't have those edit rights. I'm not sure editing
home page and applying a template should really be different in terms of
privileges. But applying a template on an existing page or home page, seems
to be a rather unfrequent operation.


>
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> > > It was just a high level view on the direction to follow, and not a
> > > specific technical aspect, so no reason to -1 it, right?
> > >
> > >
> > > > BTW there’s also another variation for the home page that hasn’t been
> > > > discussed yet:
> > > > * Make the home page special by not making it editable (and without
> any
> > > > docextra tabs at the bottom). So no rollback issue/edit weirdness.
> > > > * Only admins can change it and only through the Admin UI (basically
> > > > decide which space home page to display on the wiki home page).
> > > > * Somewhere in the content of the default home page or through the
> first
> > > > time wizard, direct the users to the Sandbox page to try it out
> editing
> > > > (since this is what Sandbox is for!)
> > > >
> > >
> > > Adding this too and I think we`re good for going forward with a vote,
> > since
> > > we have plenty of proposals.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Eduard
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > -Vincent
> > > >
> > > > > The task of teaching the user is delegated exclusively to the Help
> > > > > Application, with the note that the application will also be
> proposed
> > to
> > > > > the user to be redirected to, as a final step in the DW (after the
> > > > > installation of the user selected flavor is complete).
> > > > >
> > > > > All of this assumes that we have a properly working Flavors feature
> > and
> > > > > Help Application. However, what should we do in the meanwhile for
> the
> > > > > default XWiki Enterprise UI / Flavor / build? Should we postpone
> yet
> > > > again
> > > > > any work on the homepage until we have the needed elements to
> delegate
> > > > the
> > > > > problematic aspects, or should we do something about it in the
> > meanwhile?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Eduard
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------
> > > > > [1]
> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposals
> > > > > [2]
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal7DistrbutionWizardsetsthehomepageofaflavorandtheHelpAppteachesusers
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie"
> Delhumeau <
> > > > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hello.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have again a new argument against using the dashboard and the
> > include
> > > > > > macro in the main page.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When the user uses the "Inline" editor to change some gadgets,
> she
> > can
> > > > not
> > > > > > use the rollback action of the main page to cancel her changes.
> She
> > > > has to
> > > > > > go to the Dashboard page first, and then rollback her changes
> from
> > > > there.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Having an include macro in the default page is absolutely not
> > > > intuitive,
> > > > > > even if you make it appears more clearly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Guillaume
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: Home Page - Use cases, proposals, what we have until now and what we want to achieve

Eduard Moraru
Concerning UC3 and UC4, we should not re-invent the wheel. I have just
remembered about the fact that we already have the option of setting the
homepage of a wiki exposed in the wiki's descriptor, so this makes is
already configurable.

All we need to do now, is to expose this configuration further, in
Administration > Configuration, under Wiki section (just like it was for
workspaces, no idea why we removed it when refactoring to 'wikis'), where
you can select what is the homepage of your current wiki. Selecting the
owner and basically all the other stuff that you have in a wiki descriptor
should be done at this same level, since these are very important
configurations that one needs to perform for either his main wiki or
subwiki.

And no, the xwiki-platform-wiki module is not optional (it is part of the
wiki model!), so no point in using a configurable class and throwing it
back in the 'Applications' section.

This actually goes along the lines of 'Proposal4: Set this page as
homepage' [1], but done in Administration, not on every page, like Vincent
suggested.

To get the homepage, apps need to do:
$services.wiki.getById($services.wiki.currentWikiId).mainPageReference
Of course, this can be improved to
$services.wiki.currentWikiDescriptor.mainPageReference

We will be still having the backwards compatibility concerns of P4, however
I am sure that practical solutions (e.g. making Main.WebHome redirect to
$services.wiki.getById($services.wiki.currentWikiId).mainPageReference,
etc.) can be found if problems arise in daily use.

WDYT?

----------
[1]
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal4Setthispageashomepage

On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 6:10 PM, Jeremie BOUSQUET <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> 2014-10-28 21:08 GMT+01:00 [hidden email] <[hidden email]>:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 28 Oct 2014 at 20:28:15, Jeremie BOUSQUET ([hidden email]
> > (mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > > Le 28 oct. 2014 19:39, "Eduard Moraru" a écrit :
> > > >
> > > > Hi Vincent,
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 11:05 AM, [hidden email]
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > On 24 Oct 2014 at 21:18:31, Eduard Moraru ([hidden email]
> > (mailto:
> > > > > [hidden email])) wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2 new proposals (P6 and P7) have been made recently. I did not
> yet
> > get
> > > > > the
> > > > > > chance to add comments/analysis on them. Feel free to do it in
> the
> > > > > > meanwhile if anybody wants to.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A few notes on Jeremie's "Proposal7: DistrbutionWizard sets the
> > > homepage
> > > > > of
> > > > > > a flavor and the Help App teaches users" [2]:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Personally, I find it a rather elegant solution based on
> > separation of
> > > > > > concerns. However, you need to be aware that it is a medium/long
> > term
> > > > > > objective.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The way I understood it is that we delegate the task of choosing
> a
> > > > > homepage
> > > > > > to the DistributionWizard that will most likely be in charge of
> > > offering
> > > > > > the user flavor options. At that point, the homepage of the
> current
> > > wiki
> > > > > > will be the homepage of the user selected flavor. Optionally, we
> > can
> > > also
> > > > > > propose to use a blank page as homepage if the user wants,
> however
> > > this
> > > > > > might be a bit of an overkill, since the user can easily edit the
> > page
> > > > > and
> > > > > > trash everything.
> > > > >
> > > > > The DW should not know at all about any page. It should be up to
> the
> > > > > flavor to define the wiki pages it will contain and install. Each
> > flavor
> > > > > should propose its own home page.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Maybe I did not choose the best words, but the way I understood it
> (and
> > > > tried to reformulate it) was not that the DW explicitly allows you to
> > > > select a homepage, but that indirectly, through allowing you to
> > install a
> > > > flavor, it will additionally do the job (again, indirectly) of making
> > you
> > > > choose a homepage (through the flavor you have selected).
> > >
> > > Yes that was the idea, possibly:
> > > - DW doesn't have to know pages or set homepage
> > > - there could be a new wizard, similar to wizards for new page / space
> > from
> > > template, that allows choosing a kind of homepage (empty, wiki
> concepts,
> > > dashboard, etc)
> > > - a flavor also adds its homepage as a possible "template"
> > > - btw it could be exactly the new space from template page, but with
> more
> > > choices than current (empty / dashboard)
> > > - following a dw run and a flavor installation, this "new Main space
> > > homepage from template" wizard is triggered and displayed (or just
> > proposed
> > > to user through a button or link), and allows user to either choose
> > default
> > > homepage of the flavor, or use another one
> > > - current (or reworked) homepage is just the default home of the
> default
> > > flavor (which is the current XE xar)
> >
> > ok but:
> >
> > 1) it’s complex since it means that a flavor would need to register some
> > kind of post install script to execute (which is something we don’t
> really
> > have)
> >
>
> Depends, I was thinking more about a specific event like "flavor installed"
> or "extension installed" or "wiki installed / updated". I'm not sure to get
> what you would need to do in this post install script ?
> But it could be completely "manual" or just a link at the end of DW to some
> possible post-install stuff (like, consult help, manage home page, etc).
>
> I'd like to apologize here because my "proposal" was more an idea than a
> well formalized proposal, even if it ended up in the list of proposals,
> it's obvious that it misses some thoughts and clarifications... (I
> understand your -1).
>
>
> > 2) it negates a bit the point of a flavor which is to propose a defined
> > “theme” and thus a defined home page matching that theme
> >
>
> Well, if you consider that current UI of XE is the default xwiki "flavor",
> this is exactly what it's about when we talk about switching home page
> easily, isn't it ? We want to let user set a home page that doesn't match
> the default theme freely. Obviously this default theme is not very
> "thematic" as it's the default and should be versatile ...
> Home page matching that theme could still be the mostly recommended choice.
> BTW a flavor, with such mechanism, could provide several "home page"
> variants and not only one, depending on the case.
> If I take the case of a flavor based on the Mail archive (or the mail
> archive extension alone, say), it already provides different views as the
> app home page (timeline, livetable, etc). Currently the switch is done
> through conditional include. Currently that app home page is
> MailArchive.WebHome, if I could register it as a possible home page
> template, it would avoid having to rename it "Main.WebHome" to make it a
> flavor (and potentially destroy existing wiki home page by mistake when you
> install that extension/flavor), and I could fullfill both installation
> use-cases (of using it as an app among others in some wiki, and as a
> wiki-wide-flavor in another wiki or subwiki), from the same xar bundled
> app.
> Again, here, I talk about possibilities and use-cases that seem logical or
> interesting to me if I dig into my proposal, but I really don't know if
> it's a good path or even a good idea for xwiki - I may not have the big
> picture :)
> Also, the proposal certainly does not offer any solution for short-term (if
> you consider it provides options for long-term ;-) )
>
>
> > 3) it doesn’t solve anything since once you select a default homepage you
> > still need a way to change it afterwards if you want to change it…
> >
>
> There was the side-idea of the proposal (not well formulated, maybe was
> just in my mind) that this wizard and/or DW could be triggered at any later
> time by an admin if he wants to replace homepage with some other "default"
> content. Maybe could be seen as a "personalization" step following a new
> wiki install or upgrade, but that could be triggered at any later time to
> "re-personalize" his wiki. I would put this then also as a feature in admin
> UI.
> The difference with some other proposals, is that it would not be an action
> available from the standard UI but limited to a post-install step and the
> admin UI (not like the variant below).
>
>
> >
> > I don’t see how this is much better than having a Admin UI allowing you
> to
> > change the home page you wish to have. However it’s a lot more complex
> (and
> > really marginally better).
> >
> > > Maybe instead of all this, it could be enough to unrelate the "new
> space"
> > > and "apply space homepage template" features ?
> > > So I would just have to call "space / apply template" to replace the
> > > homepage of any space already existing (including Main obviously) ?
> >
> > Yes that’s better already IMO but then it should be a menu option to
> > replace any page content with a page template.
> >
>
> I'm not sure if you talk about an additional option, or an option that
> would replace the "space /apply template" by a more generic "page / apply
> template", but I don't think anyway that a page template is the same thing
> as a home page template (whether it's a space or wiki home page). You'd
> seldom want to use a blog post as a home page ...
>
> In this variant, there's still the question, if applying such template is
> considered an admin operation or not. If it's an admin operation, you also
> proposed to start moving those admin actions to the admin UI, which is -
> sort of - what was my proposal about in first place :) (I didn't talk
> specifically about admin UI at that time, but about avoiding to crowd
> standard UI menus with unfrequent/admin operations).
> That being said I don't think it's an admin action, if you need to protect
> home page, as an admin you can set specific rights and forbid this "apply
> template" to people that don't have those edit rights. I'm not sure editing
> home page and applying a template should really be different in terms of
> privileges. But applying a template on an existing page or home page, seems
> to be a rather unfrequent operation.
>
>
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> >
> > > > It was just a high level view on the direction to follow, and not a
> > > > specific technical aspect, so no reason to -1 it, right?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > BTW there’s also another variation for the home page that hasn’t
> been
> > > > > discussed yet:
> > > > > * Make the home page special by not making it editable (and without
> > any
> > > > > docextra tabs at the bottom). So no rollback issue/edit weirdness.
> > > > > * Only admins can change it and only through the Admin UI
> (basically
> > > > > decide which space home page to display on the wiki home page).
> > > > > * Somewhere in the content of the default home page or through the
> > first
> > > > > time wizard, direct the users to the Sandbox page to try it out
> > editing
> > > > > (since this is what Sandbox is for!)
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Adding this too and I think we`re good for going forward with a vote,
> > > since
> > > > we have plenty of proposals.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Eduard
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks
> > > > > -Vincent
> > > > >
> > > > > > The task of teaching the user is delegated exclusively to the
> Help
> > > > > > Application, with the note that the application will also be
> > proposed
> > > to
> > > > > > the user to be redirected to, as a final step in the DW (after
> the
> > > > > > installation of the user selected flavor is complete).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > All of this assumes that we have a properly working Flavors
> feature
> > > and
> > > > > > Help Application. However, what should we do in the meanwhile for
> > the
> > > > > > default XWiki Enterprise UI / Flavor / build? Should we postpone
> > yet
> > > > > again
> > > > > > any work on the homepage until we have the needed elements to
> > delegate
> > > > > the
> > > > > > problematic aspects, or should we do something about it in the
> > > meanwhile?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Eduard
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----------
> > > > > > [1]
> > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposals
> > > > > > [2]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal7DistrbutionWizardsetsthehomepageofaflavorandtheHelpAppteachesusers
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie"
> > Delhumeau <
> > > > > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hello.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have again a new argument against using the dashboard and the
> > > include
> > > > > > > macro in the main page.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When the user uses the "Inline" editor to change some gadgets,
> > she
> > > can
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > use the rollback action of the main page to cancel her changes.
> > She
> > > > > has to
> > > > > > > go to the Dashboard page first, and then rollback her changes
> > from
> > > > > there.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Having an include macro in the default page is absolutely not
> > > > > intuitive,
> > > > > > > even if you make it appears more clearly.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > Guillaume
> > _______________________________________________
> > devs mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: Home Page - Use cases, proposals, what we have until now and what we want to achieve

Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau
2014-11-05 14:43 GMT+01:00 Eduard Moraru <[hidden email]>:

> Concerning UC3 and UC4, we should not re-invent the wheel. I have just
> remembered about the fact that we already have the option of setting the
> homepage of a wiki exposed in the wiki's descriptor, so this makes is
> already configurable.
>
> All we need to do now, is to expose this configuration further, in
> Administration > Configuration, under Wiki section (just like it was for
> workspaces, no idea why we removed it when refactoring to 'wikis'),


About this setting in particular it is because it is part of the wiki
descriptor, and we now have only one place to edit these properties.


> where
> you can select what is the homepage of your current wiki. Selecting the
> owner and basically all the other stuff that you have in a wiki descriptor
> should be done at this same level, since these are very important
> configurations that one needs to perform for either his main wiki or
> subwiki.
>
> And no, the xwiki-platform-wiki module is not optional (it is part of the
> wiki model!), so no point in using a configurable class and throwing it
> back in the 'Applications' section.
>
> This actually goes along the lines of 'Proposal4: Set this page as
> homepage' [1], but done in Administration, not on every page, like Vincent
> suggested.
>
> To get the homepage, apps need to do:
> $services.wiki.getById($services.wiki.currentWikiId).mainPageReference
> Of course, this can be improved to
> $services.wiki.currentWikiDescriptor.mainPageReference
>
> We will be still having the backwards compatibility concerns of P4, however
> I am sure that practical solutions (e.g. making Main.WebHome redirect to
> $services.wiki.getById($services.wiki.currentWikiId).mainPageReference,
> etc.) can be found if problems arise in daily use.
>
> WDYT?
>
> ----------
> [1]
>
> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal4Setthispageashomepage
>
> On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 6:10 PM, Jeremie BOUSQUET <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > 2014-10-28 21:08 GMT+01:00 [hidden email] <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 28 Oct 2014 at 20:28:15, Jeremie BOUSQUET (
> [hidden email]
> > > (mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > > Le 28 oct. 2014 19:39, "Eduard Moraru" a écrit :
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Vincent,
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 11:05 AM, [hidden email]
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 24 Oct 2014 at 21:18:31, Eduard Moraru ([hidden email]
> > > (mailto:
> > > > > > [hidden email])) wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2 new proposals (P6 and P7) have been made recently. I did not
> > yet
> > > get
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > chance to add comments/analysis on them. Feel free to do it in
> > the
> > > > > > > meanwhile if anybody wants to.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A few notes on Jeremie's "Proposal7: DistrbutionWizard sets the
> > > > homepage
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > a flavor and the Help App teaches users" [2]:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Personally, I find it a rather elegant solution based on
> > > separation of
> > > > > > > concerns. However, you need to be aware that it is a
> medium/long
> > > term
> > > > > > > objective.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The way I understood it is that we delegate the task of
> choosing
> > a
> > > > > > homepage
> > > > > > > to the DistributionWizard that will most likely be in charge of
> > > > offering
> > > > > > > the user flavor options. At that point, the homepage of the
> > current
> > > > wiki
> > > > > > > will be the homepage of the user selected flavor. Optionally,
> we
> > > can
> > > > also
> > > > > > > propose to use a blank page as homepage if the user wants,
> > however
> > > > this
> > > > > > > might be a bit of an overkill, since the user can easily edit
> the
> > > page
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > trash everything.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The DW should not know at all about any page. It should be up to
> > the
> > > > > > flavor to define the wiki pages it will contain and install. Each
> > > flavor
> > > > > > should propose its own home page.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe I did not choose the best words, but the way I understood it
> > (and
> > > > > tried to reformulate it) was not that the DW explicitly allows you
> to
> > > > > select a homepage, but that indirectly, through allowing you to
> > > install a
> > > > > flavor, it will additionally do the job (again, indirectly) of
> making
> > > you
> > > > > choose a homepage (through the flavor you have selected).
> > > >
> > > > Yes that was the idea, possibly:
> > > > - DW doesn't have to know pages or set homepage
> > > > - there could be a new wizard, similar to wizards for new page /
> space
> > > from
> > > > template, that allows choosing a kind of homepage (empty, wiki
> > concepts,
> > > > dashboard, etc)
> > > > - a flavor also adds its homepage as a possible "template"
> > > > - btw it could be exactly the new space from template page, but with
> > more
> > > > choices than current (empty / dashboard)
> > > > - following a dw run and a flavor installation, this "new Main space
> > > > homepage from template" wizard is triggered and displayed (or just
> > > proposed
> > > > to user through a button or link), and allows user to either choose
> > > default
> > > > homepage of the flavor, or use another one
> > > > - current (or reworked) homepage is just the default home of the
> > default
> > > > flavor (which is the current XE xar)
> > >
> > > ok but:
> > >
> > > 1) it’s complex since it means that a flavor would need to register
> some
> > > kind of post install script to execute (which is something we don’t
> > really
> > > have)
> > >
> >
> > Depends, I was thinking more about a specific event like "flavor
> installed"
> > or "extension installed" or "wiki installed / updated". I'm not sure to
> get
> > what you would need to do in this post install script ?
> > But it could be completely "manual" or just a link at the end of DW to
> some
> > possible post-install stuff (like, consult help, manage home page, etc).
> >
> > I'd like to apologize here because my "proposal" was more an idea than a
> > well formalized proposal, even if it ended up in the list of proposals,
> > it's obvious that it misses some thoughts and clarifications... (I
> > understand your -1).
> >
> >
> > > 2) it negates a bit the point of a flavor which is to propose a defined
> > > “theme” and thus a defined home page matching that theme
> > >
> >
> > Well, if you consider that current UI of XE is the default xwiki
> "flavor",
> > this is exactly what it's about when we talk about switching home page
> > easily, isn't it ? We want to let user set a home page that doesn't match
> > the default theme freely. Obviously this default theme is not very
> > "thematic" as it's the default and should be versatile ...
> > Home page matching that theme could still be the mostly recommended
> choice.
> > BTW a flavor, with such mechanism, could provide several "home page"
> > variants and not only one, depending on the case.
> > If I take the case of a flavor based on the Mail archive (or the mail
> > archive extension alone, say), it already provides different views as the
> > app home page (timeline, livetable, etc). Currently the switch is done
> > through conditional include. Currently that app home page is
> > MailArchive.WebHome, if I could register it as a possible home page
> > template, it would avoid having to rename it "Main.WebHome" to make it a
> > flavor (and potentially destroy existing wiki home page by mistake when
> you
> > install that extension/flavor), and I could fullfill both installation
> > use-cases (of using it as an app among others in some wiki, and as a
> > wiki-wide-flavor in another wiki or subwiki), from the same xar bundled
> > app.
> > Again, here, I talk about possibilities and use-cases that seem logical
> or
> > interesting to me if I dig into my proposal, but I really don't know if
> > it's a good path or even a good idea for xwiki - I may not have the big
> > picture :)
> > Also, the proposal certainly does not offer any solution for short-term
> (if
> > you consider it provides options for long-term ;-) )
> >
> >
> > > 3) it doesn’t solve anything since once you select a default homepage
> you
> > > still need a way to change it afterwards if you want to change it…
> > >
> >
> > There was the side-idea of the proposal (not well formulated, maybe was
> > just in my mind) that this wizard and/or DW could be triggered at any
> later
> > time by an admin if he wants to replace homepage with some other
> "default"
> > content. Maybe could be seen as a "personalization" step following a new
> > wiki install or upgrade, but that could be triggered at any later time to
> > "re-personalize" his wiki. I would put this then also as a feature in
> admin
> > UI.
> > The difference with some other proposals, is that it would not be an
> action
> > available from the standard UI but limited to a post-install step and the
> > admin UI (not like the variant below).
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I don’t see how this is much better than having a Admin UI allowing you
> > to
> > > change the home page you wish to have. However it’s a lot more complex
> > (and
> > > really marginally better).
> > >
> > > > Maybe instead of all this, it could be enough to unrelate the "new
> > space"
> > > > and "apply space homepage template" features ?
> > > > So I would just have to call "space / apply template" to replace the
> > > > homepage of any space already existing (including Main obviously) ?
> > >
> > > Yes that’s better already IMO but then it should be a menu option to
> > > replace any page content with a page template.
> > >
> >
> > I'm not sure if you talk about an additional option, or an option that
> > would replace the "space /apply template" by a more generic "page / apply
> > template", but I don't think anyway that a page template is the same
> thing
> > as a home page template (whether it's a space or wiki home page). You'd
> > seldom want to use a blog post as a home page ...
> >
> > In this variant, there's still the question, if applying such template is
> > considered an admin operation or not. If it's an admin operation, you
> also
> > proposed to start moving those admin actions to the admin UI, which is -
> > sort of - what was my proposal about in first place :) (I didn't talk
> > specifically about admin UI at that time, but about avoiding to crowd
> > standard UI menus with unfrequent/admin operations).
> > That being said I don't think it's an admin action, if you need to
> protect
> > home page, as an admin you can set specific rights and forbid this "apply
> > template" to people that don't have those edit rights. I'm not sure
> editing
> > home page and applying a template should really be different in terms of
> > privileges. But applying a template on an existing page or home page,
> seems
> > to be a rather unfrequent operation.
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > -Vincent
> > >
> > > > > It was just a high level view on the direction to follow, and not a
> > > > > specific technical aspect, so no reason to -1 it, right?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > BTW there’s also another variation for the home page that hasn’t
> > been
> > > > > > discussed yet:
> > > > > > * Make the home page special by not making it editable (and
> without
> > > any
> > > > > > docextra tabs at the bottom). So no rollback issue/edit
> weirdness.
> > > > > > * Only admins can change it and only through the Admin UI
> > (basically
> > > > > > decide which space home page to display on the wiki home page).
> > > > > > * Somewhere in the content of the default home page or through
> the
> > > first
> > > > > > time wizard, direct the users to the Sandbox page to try it out
> > > editing
> > > > > > (since this is what Sandbox is for!)
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Adding this too and I think we`re good for going forward with a
> vote,
> > > > since
> > > > > we have plenty of proposals.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Eduard
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > -Vincent
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > The task of teaching the user is delegated exclusively to the
> > Help
> > > > > > > Application, with the note that the application will also be
> > > proposed
> > > > to
> > > > > > > the user to be redirected to, as a final step in the DW (after
> > the
> > > > > > > installation of the user selected flavor is complete).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > All of this assumes that we have a properly working Flavors
> > feature
> > > > and
> > > > > > > Help Application. However, what should we do in the meanwhile
> for
> > > the
> > > > > > > default XWiki Enterprise UI / Flavor / build? Should we
> postpone
> > > yet
> > > > > > again
> > > > > > > any work on the homepage until we have the needed elements to
> > > delegate
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > problematic aspects, or should we do something about it in the
> > > > meanwhile?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > Eduard
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----------
> > > > > > > [1]
> > > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposals
> > > > > > > [2]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal7DistrbutionWizardsetsthehomepageofaflavorandtheHelpAppteachesusers
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie"
> > > Delhumeau <
> > > > > > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hello.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have again a new argument against using the dashboard and
> the
> > > > include
> > > > > > > > macro in the main page.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > When the user uses the "Inline" editor to change some
> gadgets,
> > > she
> > > > can
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > use the rollback action of the main page to cancel her
> changes.
> > > She
> > > > > > has to
> > > > > > > > go to the Dashboard page first, and then rollback her changes
> > > from
> > > > > > there.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Having an include macro in the default page is absolutely not
> > > > > > intuitive,
> > > > > > > > even if you make it appears more clearly.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > Guillaume
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > devs mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > devs mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>



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Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
Committer on the XWiki.org project
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Re: Home Page - Use cases, proposals, what we have until now and what we want to achieve

Eduard Moraru
The problem with the current place is that it is not really natural and
thus not very discoverable at all. If you have to set the homepage, owner,
etc of your wiki, you go to administration, but never to "wiki index > edit
wiki".

I believe that along this thread we have identified that these settings are
valuable for both the main wiki and subwikis so this makes editing the wiki
descriptor a valuable and deserving section to be introduced in
administration, don`t you agree?

Thanks,
Eduard

On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 4:38 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2014-11-05 14:43 GMT+01:00 Eduard Moraru <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Concerning UC3 and UC4, we should not re-invent the wheel. I have just
> > remembered about the fact that we already have the option of setting the
> > homepage of a wiki exposed in the wiki's descriptor, so this makes is
> > already configurable.
> >
> > All we need to do now, is to expose this configuration further, in
> > Administration > Configuration, under Wiki section (just like it was for
> > workspaces, no idea why we removed it when refactoring to 'wikis'),
>
>
> About this setting in particular it is because it is part of the wiki
> descriptor, and we now have only one place to edit these properties.
>
>
> > where
> > you can select what is the homepage of your current wiki. Selecting the
> > owner and basically all the other stuff that you have in a wiki
> descriptor
> > should be done at this same level, since these are very important
> > configurations that one needs to perform for either his main wiki or
> > subwiki.
> >
> > And no, the xwiki-platform-wiki module is not optional (it is part of the
> > wiki model!), so no point in using a configurable class and throwing it
> > back in the 'Applications' section.
> >
> > This actually goes along the lines of 'Proposal4: Set this page as
> > homepage' [1], but done in Administration, not on every page, like
> Vincent
> > suggested.
> >
> > To get the homepage, apps need to do:
> > $services.wiki.getById($services.wiki.currentWikiId).mainPageReference
> > Of course, this can be improved to
> > $services.wiki.currentWikiDescriptor.mainPageReference
> >
> > We will be still having the backwards compatibility concerns of P4,
> however
> > I am sure that practical solutions (e.g. making Main.WebHome redirect to
> > $services.wiki.getById($services.wiki.currentWikiId).mainPageReference,
> > etc.) can be found if problems arise in daily use.
> >
> > WDYT?
> >
> > ----------
> > [1]
> >
> >
> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal4Setthispageashomepage
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 6:10 PM, Jeremie BOUSQUET <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > 2014-10-28 21:08 GMT+01:00 [hidden email] <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 28 Oct 2014 at 20:28:15, Jeremie BOUSQUET (
> > [hidden email]
> > > > (mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > > Le 28 oct. 2014 19:39, "Eduard Moraru" a écrit :
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Vincent,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 11:05 AM, [hidden email]
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 24 Oct 2014 at 21:18:31, Eduard Moraru (
> [hidden email]
> > > > (mailto:
> > > > > > > [hidden email])) wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 2 new proposals (P6 and P7) have been made recently. I did
> not
> > > yet
> > > > get
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > chance to add comments/analysis on them. Feel free to do it
> in
> > > the
> > > > > > > > meanwhile if anybody wants to.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > A few notes on Jeremie's "Proposal7: DistrbutionWizard sets
> the
> > > > > homepage
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > a flavor and the Help App teaches users" [2]:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Personally, I find it a rather elegant solution based on
> > > > separation of
> > > > > > > > concerns. However, you need to be aware that it is a
> > medium/long
> > > > term
> > > > > > > > objective.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The way I understood it is that we delegate the task of
> > choosing
> > > a
> > > > > > > homepage
> > > > > > > > to the DistributionWizard that will most likely be in charge
> of
> > > > > offering
> > > > > > > > the user flavor options. At that point, the homepage of the
> > > current
> > > > > wiki
> > > > > > > > will be the homepage of the user selected flavor. Optionally,
> > we
> > > > can
> > > > > also
> > > > > > > > propose to use a blank page as homepage if the user wants,
> > > however
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > > might be a bit of an overkill, since the user can easily edit
> > the
> > > > page
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > trash everything.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The DW should not know at all about any page. It should be up
> to
> > > the
> > > > > > > flavor to define the wiki pages it will contain and install.
> Each
> > > > flavor
> > > > > > > should propose its own home page.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maybe I did not choose the best words, but the way I understood
> it
> > > (and
> > > > > > tried to reformulate it) was not that the DW explicitly allows
> you
> > to
> > > > > > select a homepage, but that indirectly, through allowing you to
> > > > install a
> > > > > > flavor, it will additionally do the job (again, indirectly) of
> > making
> > > > you
> > > > > > choose a homepage (through the flavor you have selected).
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes that was the idea, possibly:
> > > > > - DW doesn't have to know pages or set homepage
> > > > > - there could be a new wizard, similar to wizards for new page /
> > space
> > > > from
> > > > > template, that allows choosing a kind of homepage (empty, wiki
> > > concepts,
> > > > > dashboard, etc)
> > > > > - a flavor also adds its homepage as a possible "template"
> > > > > - btw it could be exactly the new space from template page, but
> with
> > > more
> > > > > choices than current (empty / dashboard)
> > > > > - following a dw run and a flavor installation, this "new Main
> space
> > > > > homepage from template" wizard is triggered and displayed (or just
> > > > proposed
> > > > > to user through a button or link), and allows user to either choose
> > > > default
> > > > > homepage of the flavor, or use another one
> > > > > - current (or reworked) homepage is just the default home of the
> > > default
> > > > > flavor (which is the current XE xar)
> > > >
> > > > ok but:
> > > >
> > > > 1) it’s complex since it means that a flavor would need to register
> > some
> > > > kind of post install script to execute (which is something we don’t
> > > really
> > > > have)
> > > >
> > >
> > > Depends, I was thinking more about a specific event like "flavor
> > installed"
> > > or "extension installed" or "wiki installed / updated". I'm not sure to
> > get
> > > what you would need to do in this post install script ?
> > > But it could be completely "manual" or just a link at the end of DW to
> > some
> > > possible post-install stuff (like, consult help, manage home page,
> etc).
> > >
> > > I'd like to apologize here because my "proposal" was more an idea than
> a
> > > well formalized proposal, even if it ended up in the list of proposals,
> > > it's obvious that it misses some thoughts and clarifications... (I
> > > understand your -1).
> > >
> > >
> > > > 2) it negates a bit the point of a flavor which is to propose a
> defined
> > > > “theme” and thus a defined home page matching that theme
> > > >
> > >
> > > Well, if you consider that current UI of XE is the default xwiki
> > "flavor",
> > > this is exactly what it's about when we talk about switching home page
> > > easily, isn't it ? We want to let user set a home page that doesn't
> match
> > > the default theme freely. Obviously this default theme is not very
> > > "thematic" as it's the default and should be versatile ...
> > > Home page matching that theme could still be the mostly recommended
> > choice.
> > > BTW a flavor, with such mechanism, could provide several "home page"
> > > variants and not only one, depending on the case.
> > > If I take the case of a flavor based on the Mail archive (or the mail
> > > archive extension alone, say), it already provides different views as
> the
> > > app home page (timeline, livetable, etc). Currently the switch is done
> > > through conditional include. Currently that app home page is
> > > MailArchive.WebHome, if I could register it as a possible home page
> > > template, it would avoid having to rename it "Main.WebHome" to make it
> a
> > > flavor (and potentially destroy existing wiki home page by mistake when
> > you
> > > install that extension/flavor), and I could fullfill both installation
> > > use-cases (of using it as an app among others in some wiki, and as a
> > > wiki-wide-flavor in another wiki or subwiki), from the same xar bundled
> > > app.
> > > Again, here, I talk about possibilities and use-cases that seem logical
> > or
> > > interesting to me if I dig into my proposal, but I really don't know if
> > > it's a good path or even a good idea for xwiki - I may not have the big
> > > picture :)
> > > Also, the proposal certainly does not offer any solution for short-term
> > (if
> > > you consider it provides options for long-term ;-) )
> > >
> > >
> > > > 3) it doesn’t solve anything since once you select a default homepage
> > you
> > > > still need a way to change it afterwards if you want to change it…
> > > >
> > >
> > > There was the side-idea of the proposal (not well formulated, maybe was
> > > just in my mind) that this wizard and/or DW could be triggered at any
> > later
> > > time by an admin if he wants to replace homepage with some other
> > "default"
> > > content. Maybe could be seen as a "personalization" step following a
> new
> > > wiki install or upgrade, but that could be triggered at any later time
> to
> > > "re-personalize" his wiki. I would put this then also as a feature in
> > admin
> > > UI.
> > > The difference with some other proposals, is that it would not be an
> > action
> > > available from the standard UI but limited to a post-install step and
> the
> > > admin UI (not like the variant below).
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I don’t see how this is much better than having a Admin UI allowing
> you
> > > to
> > > > change the home page you wish to have. However it’s a lot more
> complex
> > > (and
> > > > really marginally better).
> > > >
> > > > > Maybe instead of all this, it could be enough to unrelate the "new
> > > space"
> > > > > and "apply space homepage template" features ?
> > > > > So I would just have to call "space / apply template" to replace
> the
> > > > > homepage of any space already existing (including Main obviously) ?
> > > >
> > > > Yes that’s better already IMO but then it should be a menu option to
> > > > replace any page content with a page template.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I'm not sure if you talk about an additional option, or an option that
> > > would replace the "space /apply template" by a more generic "page /
> apply
> > > template", but I don't think anyway that a page template is the same
> > thing
> > > as a home page template (whether it's a space or wiki home page). You'd
> > > seldom want to use a blog post as a home page ...
> > >
> > > In this variant, there's still the question, if applying such template
> is
> > > considered an admin operation or not. If it's an admin operation, you
> > also
> > > proposed to start moving those admin actions to the admin UI, which is
> -
> > > sort of - what was my proposal about in first place :) (I didn't talk
> > > specifically about admin UI at that time, but about avoiding to crowd
> > > standard UI menus with unfrequent/admin operations).
> > > That being said I don't think it's an admin action, if you need to
> > protect
> > > home page, as an admin you can set specific rights and forbid this
> "apply
> > > template" to people that don't have those edit rights. I'm not sure
> > editing
> > > home page and applying a template should really be different in terms
> of
> > > privileges. But applying a template on an existing page or home page,
> > seems
> > > to be a rather unfrequent operation.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > -Vincent
> > > >
> > > > > > It was just a high level view on the direction to follow, and
> not a
> > > > > > specific technical aspect, so no reason to -1 it, right?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > BTW there’s also another variation for the home page that
> hasn’t
> > > been
> > > > > > > discussed yet:
> > > > > > > * Make the home page special by not making it editable (and
> > without
> > > > any
> > > > > > > docextra tabs at the bottom). So no rollback issue/edit
> > weirdness.
> > > > > > > * Only admins can change it and only through the Admin UI
> > > (basically
> > > > > > > decide which space home page to display on the wiki home page).
> > > > > > > * Somewhere in the content of the default home page or through
> > the
> > > > first
> > > > > > > time wizard, direct the users to the Sandbox page to try it out
> > > > editing
> > > > > > > (since this is what Sandbox is for!)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Adding this too and I think we`re good for going forward with a
> > vote,
> > > > > since
> > > > > > we have plenty of proposals.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Eduard
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > -Vincent
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The task of teaching the user is delegated exclusively to the
> > > Help
> > > > > > > > Application, with the note that the application will also be
> > > > proposed
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > the user to be redirected to, as a final step in the DW
> (after
> > > the
> > > > > > > > installation of the user selected flavor is complete).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > All of this assumes that we have a properly working Flavors
> > > feature
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > Help Application. However, what should we do in the meanwhile
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > default XWiki Enterprise UI / Flavor / build? Should we
> > postpone
> > > > yet
> > > > > > > again
> > > > > > > > any work on the homepage until we have the needed elements to
> > > > delegate
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > problematic aspects, or should we do something about it in
> the
> > > > > meanwhile?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > Eduard
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----------
> > > > > > > > [1]
> > > > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposals
> > > > > > > > [2]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal7DistrbutionWizardsetsthehomepageofaflavorandtheHelpAppteachesusers
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie"
> > > > Delhumeau <
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hello.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have again a new argument against using the dashboard and
> > the
> > > > > include
> > > > > > > > > macro in the main page.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > When the user uses the "Inline" editor to change some
> > gadgets,
> > > > she
> > > > > can
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > use the rollback action of the main page to cancel her
> > changes.
> > > > She
> > > > > > > has to
> > > > > > > > > go to the Dashboard page first, and then rollback her
> changes
> > > > from
> > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Having an include macro in the default page is absolutely
> not
> > > > > > > intuitive,
> > > > > > > > > even if you make it appears more clearly.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > Guillaume
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > devs mailing list
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > devs mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > devs mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Guillaume Delhumeau ([hidden email])
> Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
> Committer on the XWiki.org project
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: Home Page - Use cases, proposals, what we have until now and what we want to achieve

Marius Dumitru Florea
On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 11:00 AM, Eduard Moraru <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The problem with the current place is that it is not really natural and
> thus not very discoverable at all.

I have this feeling to. I wanted to edit the descriptor of a subwiki a
few days ago and I was surprised I could find anything related in the
subwiki administration.

> If you have to set the homepage, owner,
> etc of your wiki, you go to administration, but never to "wiki index > edit
> wiki".
>
> I believe that along this thread we have identified that these settings are
> valuable for both the main wiki and subwikis so this makes editing the wiki
> descriptor a valuable and deserving section to be introduced in
> administration, don`t you agree?
>
> Thanks,
> Eduard
>
> On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 4:38 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> 2014-11-05 14:43 GMT+01:00 Eduard Moraru <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> > Concerning UC3 and UC4, we should not re-invent the wheel. I have just
>> > remembered about the fact that we already have the option of setting the
>> > homepage of a wiki exposed in the wiki's descriptor, so this makes is
>> > already configurable.
>> >
>> > All we need to do now, is to expose this configuration further, in
>> > Administration > Configuration, under Wiki section (just like it was for
>> > workspaces, no idea why we removed it when refactoring to 'wikis'),
>>
>>
>> About this setting in particular it is because it is part of the wiki
>> descriptor, and we now have only one place to edit these properties.
>>
>>
>> > where
>> > you can select what is the homepage of your current wiki. Selecting the
>> > owner and basically all the other stuff that you have in a wiki
>> descriptor
>> > should be done at this same level, since these are very important
>> > configurations that one needs to perform for either his main wiki or
>> > subwiki.
>> >
>> > And no, the xwiki-platform-wiki module is not optional (it is part of the
>> > wiki model!), so no point in using a configurable class and throwing it
>> > back in the 'Applications' section.
>> >
>> > This actually goes along the lines of 'Proposal4: Set this page as
>> > homepage' [1], but done in Administration, not on every page, like
>> Vincent
>> > suggested.
>> >
>> > To get the homepage, apps need to do:
>> > $services.wiki.getById($services.wiki.currentWikiId).mainPageReference
>> > Of course, this can be improved to
>> > $services.wiki.currentWikiDescriptor.mainPageReference
>> >
>> > We will be still having the backwards compatibility concerns of P4,
>> however
>> > I am sure that practical solutions (e.g. making Main.WebHome redirect to
>> > $services.wiki.getById($services.wiki.currentWikiId).mainPageReference,
>> > etc.) can be found if problems arise in daily use.
>> >
>> > WDYT?
>> >
>> > ----------
>> > [1]
>> >
>> >
>> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal4Setthispageashomepage
>> >
>> > On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 6:10 PM, Jeremie BOUSQUET <
>> > [hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hi,
>> > >
>> > > 2014-10-28 21:08 GMT+01:00 [hidden email] <[hidden email]>:
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On 28 Oct 2014 at 20:28:15, Jeremie BOUSQUET (
>> > [hidden email]
>> > > > (mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > Hi,
>> > > > > Le 28 oct. 2014 19:39, "Eduard Moraru" a écrit :
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Hi Vincent,
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 11:05 AM, [hidden email]
>> > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Hi,
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > On 24 Oct 2014 at 21:18:31, Eduard Moraru (
>> [hidden email]
>> > > > (mailto:
>> > > > > > > [hidden email])) wrote:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Hi,
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > 2 new proposals (P6 and P7) have been made recently. I did
>> not
>> > > yet
>> > > > get
>> > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > chance to add comments/analysis on them. Feel free to do it
>> in
>> > > the
>> > > > > > > > meanwhile if anybody wants to.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > A few notes on Jeremie's "Proposal7: DistrbutionWizard sets
>> the
>> > > > > homepage
>> > > > > > > of
>> > > > > > > > a flavor and the Help App teaches users" [2]:
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Personally, I find it a rather elegant solution based on
>> > > > separation of
>> > > > > > > > concerns. However, you need to be aware that it is a
>> > medium/long
>> > > > term
>> > > > > > > > objective.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > The way I understood it is that we delegate the task of
>> > choosing
>> > > a
>> > > > > > > homepage
>> > > > > > > > to the DistributionWizard that will most likely be in charge
>> of
>> > > > > offering
>> > > > > > > > the user flavor options. At that point, the homepage of the
>> > > current
>> > > > > wiki
>> > > > > > > > will be the homepage of the user selected flavor. Optionally,
>> > we
>> > > > can
>> > > > > also
>> > > > > > > > propose to use a blank page as homepage if the user wants,
>> > > however
>> > > > > this
>> > > > > > > > might be a bit of an overkill, since the user can easily edit
>> > the
>> > > > page
>> > > > > > > and
>> > > > > > > > trash everything.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > The DW should not know at all about any page. It should be up
>> to
>> > > the
>> > > > > > > flavor to define the wiki pages it will contain and install.
>> Each
>> > > > flavor
>> > > > > > > should propose its own home page.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Maybe I did not choose the best words, but the way I understood
>> it
>> > > (and
>> > > > > > tried to reformulate it) was not that the DW explicitly allows
>> you
>> > to
>> > > > > > select a homepage, but that indirectly, through allowing you to
>> > > > install a
>> > > > > > flavor, it will additionally do the job (again, indirectly) of
>> > making
>> > > > you
>> > > > > > choose a homepage (through the flavor you have selected).
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Yes that was the idea, possibly:
>> > > > > - DW doesn't have to know pages or set homepage
>> > > > > - there could be a new wizard, similar to wizards for new page /
>> > space
>> > > > from
>> > > > > template, that allows choosing a kind of homepage (empty, wiki
>> > > concepts,
>> > > > > dashboard, etc)
>> > > > > - a flavor also adds its homepage as a possible "template"
>> > > > > - btw it could be exactly the new space from template page, but
>> with
>> > > more
>> > > > > choices than current (empty / dashboard)
>> > > > > - following a dw run and a flavor installation, this "new Main
>> space
>> > > > > homepage from template" wizard is triggered and displayed (or just
>> > > > proposed
>> > > > > to user through a button or link), and allows user to either choose
>> > > > default
>> > > > > homepage of the flavor, or use another one
>> > > > > - current (or reworked) homepage is just the default home of the
>> > > default
>> > > > > flavor (which is the current XE xar)
>> > > >
>> > > > ok but:
>> > > >
>> > > > 1) it’s complex since it means that a flavor would need to register
>> > some
>> > > > kind of post install script to execute (which is something we don’t
>> > > really
>> > > > have)
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > Depends, I was thinking more about a specific event like "flavor
>> > installed"
>> > > or "extension installed" or "wiki installed / updated". I'm not sure to
>> > get
>> > > what you would need to do in this post install script ?
>> > > But it could be completely "manual" or just a link at the end of DW to
>> > some
>> > > possible post-install stuff (like, consult help, manage home page,
>> etc).
>> > >
>> > > I'd like to apologize here because my "proposal" was more an idea than
>> a
>> > > well formalized proposal, even if it ended up in the list of proposals,
>> > > it's obvious that it misses some thoughts and clarifications... (I
>> > > understand your -1).
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > 2) it negates a bit the point of a flavor which is to propose a
>> defined
>> > > > “theme” and thus a defined home page matching that theme
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > Well, if you consider that current UI of XE is the default xwiki
>> > "flavor",
>> > > this is exactly what it's about when we talk about switching home page
>> > > easily, isn't it ? We want to let user set a home page that doesn't
>> match
>> > > the default theme freely. Obviously this default theme is not very
>> > > "thematic" as it's the default and should be versatile ...
>> > > Home page matching that theme could still be the mostly recommended
>> > choice.
>> > > BTW a flavor, with such mechanism, could provide several "home page"
>> > > variants and not only one, depending on the case.
>> > > If I take the case of a flavor based on the Mail archive (or the mail
>> > > archive extension alone, say), it already provides different views as
>> the
>> > > app home page (timeline, livetable, etc). Currently the switch is done
>> > > through conditional include. Currently that app home page is
>> > > MailArchive.WebHome, if I could register it as a possible home page
>> > > template, it would avoid having to rename it "Main.WebHome" to make it
>> a
>> > > flavor (and potentially destroy existing wiki home page by mistake when
>> > you
>> > > install that extension/flavor), and I could fullfill both installation
>> > > use-cases (of using it as an app among others in some wiki, and as a
>> > > wiki-wide-flavor in another wiki or subwiki), from the same xar bundled
>> > > app.
>> > > Again, here, I talk about possibilities and use-cases that seem logical
>> > or
>> > > interesting to me if I dig into my proposal, but I really don't know if
>> > > it's a good path or even a good idea for xwiki - I may not have the big
>> > > picture :)
>> > > Also, the proposal certainly does not offer any solution for short-term
>> > (if
>> > > you consider it provides options for long-term ;-) )
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > 3) it doesn’t solve anything since once you select a default homepage
>> > you
>> > > > still need a way to change it afterwards if you want to change it…
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > There was the side-idea of the proposal (not well formulated, maybe was
>> > > just in my mind) that this wizard and/or DW could be triggered at any
>> > later
>> > > time by an admin if he wants to replace homepage with some other
>> > "default"
>> > > content. Maybe could be seen as a "personalization" step following a
>> new
>> > > wiki install or upgrade, but that could be triggered at any later time
>> to
>> > > "re-personalize" his wiki. I would put this then also as a feature in
>> > admin
>> > > UI.
>> > > The difference with some other proposals, is that it would not be an
>> > action
>> > > available from the standard UI but limited to a post-install step and
>> the
>> > > admin UI (not like the variant below).
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > > I don’t see how this is much better than having a Admin UI allowing
>> you
>> > > to
>> > > > change the home page you wish to have. However it’s a lot more
>> complex
>> > > (and
>> > > > really marginally better).
>> > > >
>> > > > > Maybe instead of all this, it could be enough to unrelate the "new
>> > > space"
>> > > > > and "apply space homepage template" features ?
>> > > > > So I would just have to call "space / apply template" to replace
>> the
>> > > > > homepage of any space already existing (including Main obviously) ?
>> > > >
>> > > > Yes that’s better already IMO but then it should be a menu option to
>> > > > replace any page content with a page template.
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > I'm not sure if you talk about an additional option, or an option that
>> > > would replace the "space /apply template" by a more generic "page /
>> apply
>> > > template", but I don't think anyway that a page template is the same
>> > thing
>> > > as a home page template (whether it's a space or wiki home page). You'd
>> > > seldom want to use a blog post as a home page ...
>> > >
>> > > In this variant, there's still the question, if applying such template
>> is
>> > > considered an admin operation or not. If it's an admin operation, you
>> > also
>> > > proposed to start moving those admin actions to the admin UI, which is
>> -
>> > > sort of - what was my proposal about in first place :) (I didn't talk
>> > > specifically about admin UI at that time, but about avoiding to crowd
>> > > standard UI menus with unfrequent/admin operations).
>> > > That being said I don't think it's an admin action, if you need to
>> > protect
>> > > home page, as an admin you can set specific rights and forbid this
>> "apply
>> > > template" to people that don't have those edit rights. I'm not sure
>> > editing
>> > > home page and applying a template should really be different in terms
>> of
>> > > privileges. But applying a template on an existing page or home page,
>> > seems
>> > > to be a rather unfrequent operation.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Thanks
>> > > > -Vincent
>> > > >
>> > > > > > It was just a high level view on the direction to follow, and
>> not a
>> > > > > > specific technical aspect, so no reason to -1 it, right?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > BTW there’s also another variation for the home page that
>> hasn’t
>> > > been
>> > > > > > > discussed yet:
>> > > > > > > * Make the home page special by not making it editable (and
>> > without
>> > > > any
>> > > > > > > docextra tabs at the bottom). So no rollback issue/edit
>> > weirdness.
>> > > > > > > * Only admins can change it and only through the Admin UI
>> > > (basically
>> > > > > > > decide which space home page to display on the wiki home page).
>> > > > > > > * Somewhere in the content of the default home page or through
>> > the
>> > > > first
>> > > > > > > time wizard, direct the users to the Sandbox page to try it out
>> > > > editing
>> > > > > > > (since this is what Sandbox is for!)
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Adding this too and I think we`re good for going forward with a
>> > vote,
>> > > > > since
>> > > > > > we have plenty of proposals.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Thanks,
>> > > > > > Eduard
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Thanks
>> > > > > > > -Vincent
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > The task of teaching the user is delegated exclusively to the
>> > > Help
>> > > > > > > > Application, with the note that the application will also be
>> > > > proposed
>> > > > > to
>> > > > > > > > the user to be redirected to, as a final step in the DW
>> (after
>> > > the
>> > > > > > > > installation of the user selected flavor is complete).
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > All of this assumes that we have a properly working Flavors
>> > > feature
>> > > > > and
>> > > > > > > > Help Application. However, what should we do in the meanwhile
>> > for
>> > > > the
>> > > > > > > > default XWiki Enterprise UI / Flavor / build? Should we
>> > postpone
>> > > > yet
>> > > > > > > again
>> > > > > > > > any work on the homepage until we have the needed elements to
>> > > > delegate
>> > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > problematic aspects, or should we do something about it in
>> the
>> > > > > meanwhile?
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Thanks,
>> > > > > > > > Eduard
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > ----------
>> > > > > > > > [1]
>> > > > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposals
>> > > > > > > > [2]
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal7DistrbutionWizardsetsthehomepageofaflavorandtheHelpAppteachesusers
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie"
>> > > > Delhumeau <
>> > > > > > > > [hidden email]> wrote:
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Hello.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > I have again a new argument against using the dashboard and
>> > the
>> > > > > include
>> > > > > > > > > macro in the main page.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > When the user uses the "Inline" editor to change some
>> > gadgets,
>> > > > she
>> > > > > can
>> > > > > > > not
>> > > > > > > > > use the rollback action of the main page to cancel her
>> > changes.
>> > > > She
>> > > > > > > has to
>> > > > > > > > > go to the Dashboard page first, and then rollback her
>> changes
>> > > > from
>> > > > > > > there.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Having an include macro in the default page is absolutely
>> not
>> > > > > > > intuitive,
>> > > > > > > > > even if you make it appears more clearly.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Thanks,
>> > > > > > > > > Guillaume
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > devs mailing list
>> > > > [hidden email]
>> > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>> > > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > devs mailing list
>> > > [hidden email]
>> > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>> > >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > devs mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Guillaume Delhumeau ([hidden email])
>> Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
>> Committer on the XWiki.org project
>> _______________________________________________
>> devs mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>>
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Re: Home Page - Use cases, proposals, what we have until now and what we want to achieve

Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau
We had this discussion one year ago with Vincent. He wanted to go in the
direction where everything is an application with a proper UI and not
necessary in the administration.

Moreover, it is very important to be able to modify a descriptor from the
main wiki instead of the subwiki, since if you break it, you might be
unable to access your subwiki anymore!


2014-11-06 11:10 GMT+01:00 Marius Dumitru Florea <
[hidden email]>:

> On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 11:00 AM, Eduard Moraru <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > The problem with the current place is that it is not really natural and
> > thus not very discoverable at all.
>
> I have this feeling to. I wanted to edit the descriptor of a subwiki a
> few days ago and I was surprised I could find anything related in the
> subwiki administration.
>
> > If you have to set the homepage, owner,
> > etc of your wiki, you go to administration, but never to "wiki index >
> edit
> > wiki".
> >
> > I believe that along this thread we have identified that these settings
> are
> > valuable for both the main wiki and subwikis so this makes editing the
> wiki
> > descriptor a valuable and deserving section to be introduced in
> > administration, don`t you agree?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Eduard
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 4:38 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> 2014-11-05 14:43 GMT+01:00 Eduard Moraru <[hidden email]>:
> >>
> >> > Concerning UC3 and UC4, we should not re-invent the wheel. I have just
> >> > remembered about the fact that we already have the option of setting
> the
> >> > homepage of a wiki exposed in the wiki's descriptor, so this makes is
> >> > already configurable.
> >> >
> >> > All we need to do now, is to expose this configuration further, in
> >> > Administration > Configuration, under Wiki section (just like it was
> for
> >> > workspaces, no idea why we removed it when refactoring to 'wikis'),
> >>
> >>
> >> About this setting in particular it is because it is part of the wiki
> >> descriptor, and we now have only one place to edit these properties.
> >>
> >>
> >> > where
> >> > you can select what is the homepage of your current wiki. Selecting
> the
> >> > owner and basically all the other stuff that you have in a wiki
> >> descriptor
> >> > should be done at this same level, since these are very important
> >> > configurations that one needs to perform for either his main wiki or
> >> > subwiki.
> >> >
> >> > And no, the xwiki-platform-wiki module is not optional (it is part of
> the
> >> > wiki model!), so no point in using a configurable class and throwing
> it
> >> > back in the 'Applications' section.
> >> >
> >> > This actually goes along the lines of 'Proposal4: Set this page as
> >> > homepage' [1], but done in Administration, not on every page, like
> >> Vincent
> >> > suggested.
> >> >
> >> > To get the homepage, apps need to do:
> >> > $services.wiki.getById($services.wiki.currentWikiId).mainPageReference
> >> > Of course, this can be improved to
> >> > $services.wiki.currentWikiDescriptor.mainPageReference
> >> >
> >> > We will be still having the backwards compatibility concerns of P4,
> >> however
> >> > I am sure that practical solutions (e.g. making Main.WebHome redirect
> to
> >> >
> $services.wiki.getById($services.wiki.currentWikiId).mainPageReference,
> >> > etc.) can be found if problems arise in daily use.
> >> >
> >> > WDYT?
> >> >
> >> > ----------
> >> > [1]
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal4Setthispageashomepage
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 6:10 PM, Jeremie BOUSQUET <
> >> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Hi,
> >> > >
> >> > > 2014-10-28 21:08 GMT+01:00 [hidden email] <[hidden email]>:
> >> > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On 28 Oct 2014 at 20:28:15, Jeremie BOUSQUET (
> >> > [hidden email]
> >> > > > (mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > Hi,
> >> > > > > Le 28 oct. 2014 19:39, "Eduard Moraru" a écrit :
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Hi Vincent,
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 11:05 AM, [hidden email]
> >> > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Hi,
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > On 24 Oct 2014 at 21:18:31, Eduard Moraru (
> >> [hidden email]
> >> > > > (mailto:
> >> > > > > > > [hidden email])) wrote:
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Hi,
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > 2 new proposals (P6 and P7) have been made recently. I did
> >> not
> >> > > yet
> >> > > > get
> >> > > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > chance to add comments/analysis on them. Feel free to do
> it
> >> in
> >> > > the
> >> > > > > > > > meanwhile if anybody wants to.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > A few notes on Jeremie's "Proposal7: DistrbutionWizard
> sets
> >> the
> >> > > > > homepage
> >> > > > > > > of
> >> > > > > > > > a flavor and the Help App teaches users" [2]:
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Personally, I find it a rather elegant solution based on
> >> > > > separation of
> >> > > > > > > > concerns. However, you need to be aware that it is a
> >> > medium/long
> >> > > > term
> >> > > > > > > > objective.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > The way I understood it is that we delegate the task of
> >> > choosing
> >> > > a
> >> > > > > > > homepage
> >> > > > > > > > to the DistributionWizard that will most likely be in
> charge
> >> of
> >> > > > > offering
> >> > > > > > > > the user flavor options. At that point, the homepage of
> the
> >> > > current
> >> > > > > wiki
> >> > > > > > > > will be the homepage of the user selected flavor.
> Optionally,
> >> > we
> >> > > > can
> >> > > > > also
> >> > > > > > > > propose to use a blank page as homepage if the user wants,
> >> > > however
> >> > > > > this
> >> > > > > > > > might be a bit of an overkill, since the user can easily
> edit
> >> > the
> >> > > > page
> >> > > > > > > and
> >> > > > > > > > trash everything.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > The DW should not know at all about any page. It should be
> up
> >> to
> >> > > the
> >> > > > > > > flavor to define the wiki pages it will contain and install.
> >> Each
> >> > > > flavor
> >> > > > > > > should propose its own home page.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Maybe I did not choose the best words, but the way I
> understood
> >> it
> >> > > (and
> >> > > > > > tried to reformulate it) was not that the DW explicitly allows
> >> you
> >> > to
> >> > > > > > select a homepage, but that indirectly, through allowing you
> to
> >> > > > install a
> >> > > > > > flavor, it will additionally do the job (again, indirectly) of
> >> > making
> >> > > > you
> >> > > > > > choose a homepage (through the flavor you have selected).
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Yes that was the idea, possibly:
> >> > > > > - DW doesn't have to know pages or set homepage
> >> > > > > - there could be a new wizard, similar to wizards for new page /
> >> > space
> >> > > > from
> >> > > > > template, that allows choosing a kind of homepage (empty, wiki
> >> > > concepts,
> >> > > > > dashboard, etc)
> >> > > > > - a flavor also adds its homepage as a possible "template"
> >> > > > > - btw it could be exactly the new space from template page, but
> >> with
> >> > > more
> >> > > > > choices than current (empty / dashboard)
> >> > > > > - following a dw run and a flavor installation, this "new Main
> >> space
> >> > > > > homepage from template" wizard is triggered and displayed (or
> just
> >> > > > proposed
> >> > > > > to user through a button or link), and allows user to either
> choose
> >> > > > default
> >> > > > > homepage of the flavor, or use another one
> >> > > > > - current (or reworked) homepage is just the default home of the
> >> > > default
> >> > > > > flavor (which is the current XE xar)
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ok but:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 1) it’s complex since it means that a flavor would need to
> register
> >> > some
> >> > > > kind of post install script to execute (which is something we
> don’t
> >> > > really
> >> > > > have)
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Depends, I was thinking more about a specific event like "flavor
> >> > installed"
> >> > > or "extension installed" or "wiki installed / updated". I'm not
> sure to
> >> > get
> >> > > what you would need to do in this post install script ?
> >> > > But it could be completely "manual" or just a link at the end of DW
> to
> >> > some
> >> > > possible post-install stuff (like, consult help, manage home page,
> >> etc).
> >> > >
> >> > > I'd like to apologize here because my "proposal" was more an idea
> than
> >> a
> >> > > well formalized proposal, even if it ended up in the list of
> proposals,
> >> > > it's obvious that it misses some thoughts and clarifications... (I
> >> > > understand your -1).
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > > 2) it negates a bit the point of a flavor which is to propose a
> >> defined
> >> > > > “theme” and thus a defined home page matching that theme
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Well, if you consider that current UI of XE is the default xwiki
> >> > "flavor",
> >> > > this is exactly what it's about when we talk about switching home
> page
> >> > > easily, isn't it ? We want to let user set a home page that doesn't
> >> match
> >> > > the default theme freely. Obviously this default theme is not very
> >> > > "thematic" as it's the default and should be versatile ...
> >> > > Home page matching that theme could still be the mostly recommended
> >> > choice.
> >> > > BTW a flavor, with such mechanism, could provide several "home page"
> >> > > variants and not only one, depending on the case.
> >> > > If I take the case of a flavor based on the Mail archive (or the
> mail
> >> > > archive extension alone, say), it already provides different views
> as
> >> the
> >> > > app home page (timeline, livetable, etc). Currently the switch is
> done
> >> > > through conditional include. Currently that app home page is
> >> > > MailArchive.WebHome, if I could register it as a possible home page
> >> > > template, it would avoid having to rename it "Main.WebHome" to make
> it
> >> a
> >> > > flavor (and potentially destroy existing wiki home page by mistake
> when
> >> > you
> >> > > install that extension/flavor), and I could fullfill both
> installation
> >> > > use-cases (of using it as an app among others in some wiki, and as a
> >> > > wiki-wide-flavor in another wiki or subwiki), from the same xar
> bundled
> >> > > app.
> >> > > Again, here, I talk about possibilities and use-cases that seem
> logical
> >> > or
> >> > > interesting to me if I dig into my proposal, but I really don't
> know if
> >> > > it's a good path or even a good idea for xwiki - I may not have the
> big
> >> > > picture :)
> >> > > Also, the proposal certainly does not offer any solution for
> short-term
> >> > (if
> >> > > you consider it provides options for long-term ;-) )
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > > 3) it doesn’t solve anything since once you select a default
> homepage
> >> > you
> >> > > > still need a way to change it afterwards if you want to change it…
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > There was the side-idea of the proposal (not well formulated, maybe
> was
> >> > > just in my mind) that this wizard and/or DW could be triggered at
> any
> >> > later
> >> > > time by an admin if he wants to replace homepage with some other
> >> > "default"
> >> > > content. Maybe could be seen as a "personalization" step following a
> >> new
> >> > > wiki install or upgrade, but that could be triggered at any later
> time
> >> to
> >> > > "re-personalize" his wiki. I would put this then also as a feature
> in
> >> > admin
> >> > > UI.
> >> > > The difference with some other proposals, is that it would not be an
> >> > action
> >> > > available from the standard UI but limited to a post-install step
> and
> >> the
> >> > > admin UI (not like the variant below).
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I don’t see how this is much better than having a Admin UI
> allowing
> >> you
> >> > > to
> >> > > > change the home page you wish to have. However it’s a lot more
> >> complex
> >> > > (and
> >> > > > really marginally better).
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > Maybe instead of all this, it could be enough to unrelate the
> "new
> >> > > space"
> >> > > > > and "apply space homepage template" features ?
> >> > > > > So I would just have to call "space / apply template" to replace
> >> the
> >> > > > > homepage of any space already existing (including Main
> obviously) ?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Yes that’s better already IMO but then it should be a menu option
> to
> >> > > > replace any page content with a page template.
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > I'm not sure if you talk about an additional option, or an option
> that
> >> > > would replace the "space /apply template" by a more generic "page /
> >> apply
> >> > > template", but I don't think anyway that a page template is the same
> >> > thing
> >> > > as a home page template (whether it's a space or wiki home page).
> You'd
> >> > > seldom want to use a blog post as a home page ...
> >> > >
> >> > > In this variant, there's still the question, if applying such
> template
> >> is
> >> > > considered an admin operation or not. If it's an admin operation,
> you
> >> > also
> >> > > proposed to start moving those admin actions to the admin UI, which
> is
> >> -
> >> > > sort of - what was my proposal about in first place :) (I didn't
> talk
> >> > > specifically about admin UI at that time, but about avoiding to
> crowd
> >> > > standard UI menus with unfrequent/admin operations).
> >> > > That being said I don't think it's an admin action, if you need to
> >> > protect
> >> > > home page, as an admin you can set specific rights and forbid this
> >> "apply
> >> > > template" to people that don't have those edit rights. I'm not sure
> >> > editing
> >> > > home page and applying a template should really be different in
> terms
> >> of
> >> > > privileges. But applying a template on an existing page or home
> page,
> >> > seems
> >> > > to be a rather unfrequent operation.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thanks
> >> > > > -Vincent
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > > It was just a high level view on the direction to follow, and
> >> not a
> >> > > > > > specific technical aspect, so no reason to -1 it, right?
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > BTW there’s also another variation for the home page that
> >> hasn’t
> >> > > been
> >> > > > > > > discussed yet:
> >> > > > > > > * Make the home page special by not making it editable (and
> >> > without
> >> > > > any
> >> > > > > > > docextra tabs at the bottom). So no rollback issue/edit
> >> > weirdness.
> >> > > > > > > * Only admins can change it and only through the Admin UI
> >> > > (basically
> >> > > > > > > decide which space home page to display on the wiki home
> page).
> >> > > > > > > * Somewhere in the content of the default home page or
> through
> >> > the
> >> > > > first
> >> > > > > > > time wizard, direct the users to the Sandbox page to try it
> out
> >> > > > editing
> >> > > > > > > (since this is what Sandbox is for!)
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Adding this too and I think we`re good for going forward with
> a
> >> > vote,
> >> > > > > since
> >> > > > > > we have plenty of proposals.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Thanks,
> >> > > > > > Eduard
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Thanks
> >> > > > > > > -Vincent
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > The task of teaching the user is delegated exclusively to
> the
> >> > > Help
> >> > > > > > > > Application, with the note that the application will also
> be
> >> > > > proposed
> >> > > > > to
> >> > > > > > > > the user to be redirected to, as a final step in the DW
> >> (after
> >> > > the
> >> > > > > > > > installation of the user selected flavor is complete).
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > All of this assumes that we have a properly working
> Flavors
> >> > > feature
> >> > > > > and
> >> > > > > > > > Help Application. However, what should we do in the
> meanwhile
> >> > for
> >> > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > default XWiki Enterprise UI / Flavor / build? Should we
> >> > postpone
> >> > > > yet
> >> > > > > > > again
> >> > > > > > > > any work on the homepage until we have the needed
> elements to
> >> > > > delegate
> >> > > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > problematic aspects, or should we do something about it in
> >> the
> >> > > > > meanwhile?
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> >> > > > > > > > Eduard
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > ----------
> >> > > > > > > > [1]
> >> > > > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposals
> >> > > > > > > > [2]
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal7DistrbutionWizardsetsthehomepageofaflavorandtheHelpAppteachesusers
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie"
> >> > > > Delhumeau <
> >> > > > > > > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Hello.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > I have again a new argument against using the dashboard
> and
> >> > the
> >> > > > > include
> >> > > > > > > > > macro in the main page.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > When the user uses the "Inline" editor to change some
> >> > gadgets,
> >> > > > she
> >> > > > > can
> >> > > > > > > not
> >> > > > > > > > > use the rollback action of the main page to cancel her
> >> > changes.
> >> > > > She
> >> > > > > > > has to
> >> > > > > > > > > go to the Dashboard page first, and then rollback her
> >> changes
> >> > > > from
> >> > > > > > > there.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Having an include macro in the default page is
> absolutely
> >> not
> >> > > > > > > intuitive,
> >> > > > > > > > > even if you make it appears more clearly.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> >> > > > > > > > > Guillaume
> >> > > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > > devs mailing list
> >> > > > [hidden email]
> >> > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >> > > >
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > devs mailing list
> >> > > [hidden email]
> >> > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >> > >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > devs mailing list
> >> > [hidden email]
> >> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Guillaume Delhumeau ([hidden email])
> >> Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
> >> Committer on the XWiki.org project
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> devs mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > devs mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>



--
Guillaume Delhumeau ([hidden email])
Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
Committer on the XWiki.org project
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Re: Home Page - Use cases, proposals, what we have until now and what we want to achieve

vmassol
Administrator
 




On 6 Nov 2014 at 12:58:48, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau ([hidden email](mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:

> We had this discussion one year ago with Vincent. He wanted to go in the
> direction where everything is an application with a proper UI and not
> necessary in the administration.

Some points on this to be clear:

1) Indeed for discoverability I think it's good to have application features visible in the app themselves whether it’s for end users, developers or admins. For example the fact that in the Wiki Index, you can have an “Edit Descriptor” button if you’re an admin of that wiki, or the fact that in the AllDocs livetable page, you can delete a doc if you have the permissions. Basically you see actions that you have the right to perform.

2) Regarding configuration of apps, I agree that the best place is the Administration with sections for each app. What I didn’t want to have is to force the users to be admin to be able to access applications. For example at the time the discussions were about the Scheduler app, the Statistics app just to name 2. It was proposed that they be visible/findable only from the Admin screens and that’s what I didn’t like. In the end I’ve made them visible/discoverable by listing them in the Application Panel when the user has admin rights.

3) Wiki descriptors are about configuration and I would find it normal and good to have them in the Main wiki’s administration screens too. This means they could be accesssed both from the Wiki index screen ( point 1) above) and from the Admin UI (point 2) above).

Thanks
-Vincent

> Moreover, it is very important to be able to modify a descriptor from the
> main wiki instead of the subwiki, since if you break it, you might be
> unable to access your subwiki anymore!
>  
>  
> 2014-11-06 11:10 GMT+01:00 Marius Dumitru Florea <
> [hidden email]>:
>  
> > On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 11:00 AM, Eduard Moraru  
> > wrote:
> >
> > > The problem with the current place is that it is not really natural and
> > > thus not very discoverable at all.
> >
> > I have this feeling to. I wanted to edit the descriptor of a subwiki a
> > few days ago and I was surprised I could find anything related in the
> > subwiki administration.
> >
> > > If you have to set the homepage, owner,
> > > etc of your wiki, you go to administration, but never to "wiki index >
> > edit
> > > wiki".
> > >
> > > I believe that along this thread we have identified that these settings
> > are
> > > valuable for both the main wiki and subwikis so this makes editing the
> > wiki
> > > descriptor a valuable and deserving section to be introduced in
> > > administration, don`t you agree?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Eduard
> > >
> > > On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 4:38 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau <
> > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> 2014-11-05 14:43 GMT+01:00 Eduard Moraru :
> > >>
> > >> > Concerning UC3 and UC4, we should not re-invent the wheel. I have just
> > >> > remembered about the fact that we already have the option of setting
> > the
> > >> > homepage of a wiki exposed in the wiki's descriptor, so this makes is
> > >> > already configurable.
> > >> >
> > >> > All we need to do now, is to expose this configuration further, in
> > >> > Administration > Configuration, under Wiki section (just like it was
> > for
> > >> > workspaces, no idea why we removed it when refactoring to 'wikis'),
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> About this setting in particular it is because it is part of the wiki
> > >> descriptor, and we now have only one place to edit these properties.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > where
> > >> > you can select what is the homepage of your current wiki. Selecting
> > the
> > >> > owner and basically all the other stuff that you have in a wiki
> > >> descriptor
> > >> > should be done at this same level, since these are very important
> > >> > configurations that one needs to perform for either his main wiki or
> > >> > subwiki.
> > >> >
> > >> > And no, the xwiki-platform-wiki module is not optional (it is part of
> > the
> > >> > wiki model!), so no point in using a configurable class and throwing
> > it
> > >> > back in the 'Applications' section.
> > >> >
> > >> > This actually goes along the lines of 'Proposal4: Set this page as
> > >> > homepage' [1], but done in Administration, not on every page, like
> > >> Vincent
> > >> > suggested.
> > >> >
> > >> > To get the homepage, apps need to do:
> > >> > $services.wiki.getById($services.wiki.currentWikiId).mainPageReference
> > >> > Of course, this can be improved to
> > >> > $services.wiki.currentWikiDescriptor.mainPageReference
> > >> >
> > >> > We will be still having the backwards compatibility concerns of P4,
> > >> however
> > >> > I am sure that practical solutions (e.g. making Main.WebHome redirect
> > to
> > >> >
> > $services.wiki.getById($services.wiki.currentWikiId).mainPageReference,
> > >> > etc.) can be found if problems arise in daily use.
> > >> >
> > >> > WDYT?
> > >> >
> > >> > ----------
> > >> > [1]
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal4Setthispageashomepage
> > >> >
> > >> > On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 6:10 PM, Jeremie BOUSQUET <
> > >> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > Hi,
> > >> > >
> > >> > > 2014-10-28 21:08 GMT+01:00 [hidden email] :
> > >> > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > On 28 Oct 2014 at 20:28:15, Jeremie BOUSQUET (
> > >> > [hidden email]
> > >> > > > (mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > > Hi,
> > >> > > > > Le 28 oct. 2014 19:39, "Eduard Moraru" a écrit :
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > Hi Vincent,
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 11:05 AM, [hidden email]
> > >> > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > Hi,
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > On 24 Oct 2014 at 21:18:31, Eduard Moraru (
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> > > > (mailto:
> > >> > > > > > > [hidden email])) wrote:
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > Hi,
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > 2 new proposals (P6 and P7) have been made recently. I did
> > >> not
> > >> > > yet
> > >> > > > get
> > >> > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > chance to add comments/analysis on them. Feel free to do
> > it
> > >> in
> > >> > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > meanwhile if anybody wants to.
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > A few notes on Jeremie's "Proposal7: DistrbutionWizard
> > sets
> > >> the
> > >> > > > > homepage
> > >> > > > > > > of
> > >> > > > > > > > a flavor and the Help App teaches users" [2]:
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > Personally, I find it a rather elegant solution based on
> > >> > > > separation of
> > >> > > > > > > > concerns. However, you need to be aware that it is a
> > >> > medium/long
> > >> > > > term
> > >> > > > > > > > objective.
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > The way I understood it is that we delegate the task of
> > >> > choosing
> > >> > > a
> > >> > > > > > > homepage
> > >> > > > > > > > to the DistributionWizard that will most likely be in
> > charge
> > >> of
> > >> > > > > offering
> > >> > > > > > > > the user flavor options. At that point, the homepage of
> > the
> > >> > > current
> > >> > > > > wiki
> > >> > > > > > > > will be the homepage of the user selected flavor.
> > Optionally,
> > >> > we
> > >> > > > can
> > >> > > > > also
> > >> > > > > > > > propose to use a blank page as homepage if the user wants,
> > >> > > however
> > >> > > > > this
> > >> > > > > > > > might be a bit of an overkill, since the user can easily
> > edit
> > >> > the
> > >> > > > page
> > >> > > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > trash everything.
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > The DW should not know at all about any page. It should be
> > up
> > >> to
> > >> > > the
> > >> > > > > > > flavor to define the wiki pages it will contain and install.
> > >> Each
> > >> > > > flavor
> > >> > > > > > > should propose its own home page.
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > Maybe I did not choose the best words, but the way I
> > understood
> > >> it
> > >> > > (and
> > >> > > > > > tried to reformulate it) was not that the DW explicitly allows
> > >> you
> > >> > to
> > >> > > > > > select a homepage, but that indirectly, through allowing you
> > to
> > >> > > > install a
> > >> > > > > > flavor, it will additionally do the job (again, indirectly) of
> > >> > making
> > >> > > > you
> > >> > > > > > choose a homepage (through the flavor you have selected).
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > Yes that was the idea, possibly:
> > >> > > > > - DW doesn't have to know pages or set homepage
> > >> > > > > - there could be a new wizard, similar to wizards for new page /
> > >> > space
> > >> > > > from
> > >> > > > > template, that allows choosing a kind of homepage (empty, wiki
> > >> > > concepts,
> > >> > > > > dashboard, etc)
> > >> > > > > - a flavor also adds its homepage as a possible "template"
> > >> > > > > - btw it could be exactly the new space from template page, but
> > >> with
> > >> > > more
> > >> > > > > choices than current (empty / dashboard)
> > >> > > > > - following a dw run and a flavor installation, this "new Main
> > >> space
> > >> > > > > homepage from template" wizard is triggered and displayed (or
> > just
> > >> > > > proposed
> > >> > > > > to user through a button or link), and allows user to either
> > choose
> > >> > > > default
> > >> > > > > homepage of the flavor, or use another one
> > >> > > > > - current (or reworked) homepage is just the default home of the
> > >> > > default
> > >> > > > > flavor (which is the current XE xar)
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > ok but:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > 1) it’s complex since it means that a flavor would need to
> > register
> > >> > some
> > >> > > > kind of post install script to execute (which is something we
> > don’t
> > >> > > really
> > >> > > > have)
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Depends, I was thinking more about a specific event like "flavor
> > >> > installed"
> > >> > > or "extension installed" or "wiki installed / updated". I'm not
> > sure to
> > >> > get
> > >> > > what you would need to do in this post install script ?
> > >> > > But it could be completely "manual" or just a link at the end of DW
> > to
> > >> > some
> > >> > > possible post-install stuff (like, consult help, manage home page,
> > >> etc).
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I'd like to apologize here because my "proposal" was more an idea
> > than
> > >> a
> > >> > > well formalized proposal, even if it ended up in the list of
> > proposals,
> > >> > > it's obvious that it misses some thoughts and clarifications... (I
> > >> > > understand your -1).
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > 2) it negates a bit the point of a flavor which is to propose a
> > >> defined
> > >> > > > “theme” and thus a defined home page matching that theme
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Well, if you consider that current UI of XE is the default xwiki
> > >> > "flavor",
> > >> > > this is exactly what it's about when we talk about switching home
> > page
> > >> > > easily, isn't it ? We want to let user set a home page that doesn't
> > >> match
> > >> > > the default theme freely. Obviously this default theme is not very
> > >> > > "thematic" as it's the default and should be versatile ...
> > >> > > Home page matching that theme could still be the mostly recommended
> > >> > choice.
> > >> > > BTW a flavor, with such mechanism, could provide several "home page"
> > >> > > variants and not only one, depending on the case.
> > >> > > If I take the case of a flavor based on the Mail archive (or the
> > mail
> > >> > > archive extension alone, say), it already provides different views
> > as
> > >> the
> > >> > > app home page (timeline, livetable, etc). Currently the switch is
> > done
> > >> > > through conditional include. Currently that app home page is
> > >> > > MailArchive.WebHome, if I could register it as a possible home page
> > >> > > template, it would avoid having to rename it "Main.WebHome" to make
> > it
> > >> a
> > >> > > flavor (and potentially destroy existing wiki home page by mistake
> > when
> > >> > you
> > >> > > install that extension/flavor), and I could fullfill both
> > installation
> > >> > > use-cases (of using it as an app among others in some wiki, and as a
> > >> > > wiki-wide-flavor in another wiki or subwiki), from the same xar
> > bundled
> > >> > > app.
> > >> > > Again, here, I talk about possibilities and use-cases that seem
> > logical
> > >> > or
> > >> > > interesting to me if I dig into my proposal, but I really don't
> > know if
> > >> > > it's a good path or even a good idea for xwiki - I may not have the
> > big
> > >> > > picture :)
> > >> > > Also, the proposal certainly does not offer any solution for
> > short-term
> > >> > (if
> > >> > > you consider it provides options for long-term ;-) )
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > 3) it doesn’t solve anything since once you select a default
> > homepage
> > >> > you
> > >> > > > still need a way to change it afterwards if you want to change it…
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > There was the side-idea of the proposal (not well formulated, maybe
> > was
> > >> > > just in my mind) that this wizard and/or DW could be triggered at
> > any
> > >> > later
> > >> > > time by an admin if he wants to replace homepage with some other
> > >> > "default"
> > >> > > content. Maybe could be seen as a "personalization" step following a
> > >> new
> > >> > > wiki install or upgrade, but that could be triggered at any later
> > time
> > >> to
> > >> > > "re-personalize" his wiki. I would put this then also as a feature
> > in
> > >> > admin
> > >> > > UI.
> > >> > > The difference with some other proposals, is that it would not be an
> > >> > action
> > >> > > available from the standard UI but limited to a post-install step
> > and
> > >> the
> > >> > > admin UI (not like the variant below).
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > I don’t see how this is much better than having a Admin UI
> > allowing
> > >> you
> > >> > > to
> > >> > > > change the home page you wish to have. However it’s a lot more
> > >> complex
> > >> > > (and
> > >> > > > really marginally better).
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > > Maybe instead of all this, it could be enough to unrelate the
> > "new
> > >> > > space"
> > >> > > > > and "apply space homepage template" features ?
> > >> > > > > So I would just have to call "space / apply template" to replace
> > >> the
> > >> > > > > homepage of any space already existing (including Main
> > obviously) ?
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Yes that’s better already IMO but then it should be a menu option
> > to
> > >> > > > replace any page content with a page template.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I'm not sure if you talk about an additional option, or an option
> > that
> > >> > > would replace the "space /apply template" by a more generic "page /
> > >> apply
> > >> > > template", but I don't think anyway that a page template is the same
> > >> > thing
> > >> > > as a home page template (whether it's a space or wiki home page).
> > You'd
> > >> > > seldom want to use a blog post as a home page ...
> > >> > >
> > >> > > In this variant, there's still the question, if applying such
> > template
> > >> is
> > >> > > considered an admin operation or not. If it's an admin operation,
> > you
> > >> > also
> > >> > > proposed to start moving those admin actions to the admin UI, which
> > is
> > >> -
> > >> > > sort of - what was my proposal about in first place :) (I didn't
> > talk
> > >> > > specifically about admin UI at that time, but about avoiding to
> > crowd
> > >> > > standard UI menus with unfrequent/admin operations).
> > >> > > That being said I don't think it's an admin action, if you need to
> > >> > protect
> > >> > > home page, as an admin you can set specific rights and forbid this
> > >> "apply
> > >> > > template" to people that don't have those edit rights. I'm not sure
> > >> > editing
> > >> > > home page and applying a template should really be different in
> > terms
> > >> of
> > >> > > privileges. But applying a template on an existing page or home
> > page,
> > >> > seems
> > >> > > to be a rather unfrequent operation.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Thanks
> > >> > > > -Vincent
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > > > It was just a high level view on the direction to follow, and
> > >> not a
> > >> > > > > > specific technical aspect, so no reason to -1 it, right?
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > BTW there’s also another variation for the home page that
> > >> hasn’t
> > >> > > been
> > >> > > > > > > discussed yet:
> > >> > > > > > > * Make the home page special by not making it editable (and
> > >> > without
> > >> > > > any
> > >> > > > > > > docextra tabs at the bottom). So no rollback issue/edit
> > >> > weirdness.
> > >> > > > > > > * Only admins can change it and only through the Admin UI
> > >> > > (basically
> > >> > > > > > > decide which space home page to display on the wiki home
> > page).
> > >> > > > > > > * Somewhere in the content of the default home page or
> > through
> > >> > the
> > >> > > > first
> > >> > > > > > > time wizard, direct the users to the Sandbox page to try it
> > out
> > >> > > > editing
> > >> > > > > > > (since this is what Sandbox is for!)
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > Adding this too and I think we`re good for going forward with
> > a
> > >> > vote,
> > >> > > > > since
> > >> > > > > > we have plenty of proposals.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > Thanks,
> > >> > > > > > Eduard
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > Thanks
> > >> > > > > > > -Vincent
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > The task of teaching the user is delegated exclusively to
> > the
> > >> > > Help
> > >> > > > > > > > Application, with the note that the application will also
> > be
> > >> > > > proposed
> > >> > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > the user to be redirected to, as a final step in the DW
> > >> (after
> > >> > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > installation of the user selected flavor is complete).
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > All of this assumes that we have a properly working
> > Flavors
> > >> > > feature
> > >> > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > Help Application. However, what should we do in the
> > meanwhile
> > >> > for
> > >> > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > default XWiki Enterprise UI / Flavor / build? Should we
> > >> > postpone
> > >> > > > yet
> > >> > > > > > > again
> > >> > > > > > > > any work on the homepage until we have the needed
> > elements to
> > >> > > > delegate
> > >> > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > problematic aspects, or should we do something about it in
> > >> the
> > >> > > > > meanwhile?
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > >> > > > > > > > Eduard
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > ----------
> > >> > > > > > > > [1]
> > >> > > > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposals
> > >> > > > > > > > [2]
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal7DistrbutionWizardsetsthehomepageofaflavorandtheHelpAppteachesusers
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie"
> > >> > > > Delhumeau <
> > >> > > > > > > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > Hello.
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > I have again a new argument against using the dashboard
> > and
> > >> > the
> > >> > > > > include
> > >> > > > > > > > > macro in the main page.
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > When the user uses the "Inline" editor to change some
> > >> > gadgets,
> > >> > > > she
> > >> > > > > can
> > >> > > > > > > not
> > >> > > > > > > > > use the rollback action of the main page to cancel her
> > >> > changes.
> > >> > > > She
> > >> > > > > > > has to
> > >> > > > > > > > > go to the Dashboard page first, and then rollback her
> > >> changes
> > >> > > > from
> > >> > > > > > > there.
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > Having an include macro in the default page is
> > absolutely
> > >> not
> > >> > > > > > > intuitive,
> > >> > > > > > > > > even if you make it appears more clearly.
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > >> > > > > > > > > Guillaume
> > >> > > > _______________________________________________
> > >> > > > devs mailing list
> > >> > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > _______________________________________________
> > >> > > devs mailing list
> > >> > > [hidden email]
> > >> > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> > >> > >
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > devs mailing list
> > >> > [hidden email]
> > >> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Guillaume Delhumeau ([hidden email])
> > >> Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
> > >> Committer on the XWiki.org project
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> devs mailing list
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > devs mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> > _______________________________________________
> > devs mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >
>  
>  
>  
> --
> Guillaume Delhumeau ([hidden email])
> Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
> Committer on the XWiki.org project
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
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Re: Home Page - Use cases, proposals, what we have until now and what we want to achieve

Thomas Mortagne
Administrator
On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 1:13 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
> On 6 Nov 2014 at 12:58:48, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau ([hidden email](mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
>
>> We had this discussion one year ago with Vincent. He wanted to go in the
>> direction where everything is an application with a proper UI and not
>> necessary in the administration.
>
> Some points on this to be clear:
>
> 1) Indeed for discoverability I think it's good to have application features visible in the app themselves whether it’s for end users, developers or admins. For example the fact that in the Wiki Index, you can have an “Edit Descriptor” button if you’re an admin of that wiki, or the fact that in the AllDocs livetable page, you can delete a doc if you have the permissions. Basically you see actions that you have the right to perform.
>
> 2) Regarding configuration of apps, I agree that the best place is the Administration with sections for each app. What I didn’t want to have is to force the users to be admin to be able to access applications. For example at the time the discussions were about the Scheduler app, the Statistics app just to name 2. It was proposed that they be visible/findable only from the Admin screens and that’s what I didn’t like. In the end I’ve made them visible/discoverable by listing them in the Application Panel when the user has admin rights.
>
> 3) Wiki descriptors are about configuration and I would find it normal and good to have them in the Main wiki’s administration screens too. This means they could be accesssed both from the Wiki index screen ( point 1) above) and from the Admin UI (point 2) above).

I agree thate there is no reason to choose a single place where you
can access the wiki descriptor, it's usefull in both sides. Not to be
mixed with the place where the descriptor itself is actually stored
which should remain in the main wiki for, I hope, obvious technical
reasons (one of them mentionned by Guillaume).

>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>> Moreover, it is very important to be able to modify a descriptor from the
>> main wiki instead of the subwiki, since if you break it, you might be
>> unable to access your subwiki anymore!
>>
>>
>> 2014-11-06 11:10 GMT+01:00 Marius Dumitru Florea <
>> [hidden email]>:
>>
>> > On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 11:00 AM, Eduard Moraru
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > The problem with the current place is that it is not really natural and
>> > > thus not very discoverable at all.
>> >
>> > I have this feeling to. I wanted to edit the descriptor of a subwiki a
>> > few days ago and I was surprised I could find anything related in the
>> > subwiki administration.
>> >
>> > > If you have to set the homepage, owner,
>> > > etc of your wiki, you go to administration, but never to "wiki index >
>> > edit
>> > > wiki".
>> > >
>> > > I believe that along this thread we have identified that these settings
>> > are
>> > > valuable for both the main wiki and subwikis so this makes editing the
>> > wiki
>> > > descriptor a valuable and deserving section to be introduced in
>> > > administration, don`t you agree?
>> > >
>> > > Thanks,
>> > > Eduard
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 4:38 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau <
>> > > [hidden email]> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> 2014-11-05 14:43 GMT+01:00 Eduard Moraru :
>> > >>
>> > >> > Concerning UC3 and UC4, we should not re-invent the wheel. I have just
>> > >> > remembered about the fact that we already have the option of setting
>> > the
>> > >> > homepage of a wiki exposed in the wiki's descriptor, so this makes is
>> > >> > already configurable.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > All we need to do now, is to expose this configuration further, in
>> > >> > Administration > Configuration, under Wiki section (just like it was
>> > for
>> > >> > workspaces, no idea why we removed it when refactoring to 'wikis'),
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> About this setting in particular it is because it is part of the wiki
>> > >> descriptor, and we now have only one place to edit these properties.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> > where
>> > >> > you can select what is the homepage of your current wiki. Selecting
>> > the
>> > >> > owner and basically all the other stuff that you have in a wiki
>> > >> descriptor
>> > >> > should be done at this same level, since these are very important
>> > >> > configurations that one needs to perform for either his main wiki or
>> > >> > subwiki.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > And no, the xwiki-platform-wiki module is not optional (it is part of
>> > the
>> > >> > wiki model!), so no point in using a configurable class and throwing
>> > it
>> > >> > back in the 'Applications' section.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > This actually goes along the lines of 'Proposal4: Set this page as
>> > >> > homepage' [1], but done in Administration, not on every page, like
>> > >> Vincent
>> > >> > suggested.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > To get the homepage, apps need to do:
>> > >> > $services.wiki.getById($services.wiki.currentWikiId).mainPageReference
>> > >> > Of course, this can be improved to
>> > >> > $services.wiki.currentWikiDescriptor.mainPageReference
>> > >> >
>> > >> > We will be still having the backwards compatibility concerns of P4,
>> > >> however
>> > >> > I am sure that practical solutions (e.g. making Main.WebHome redirect
>> > to
>> > >> >
>> > $services.wiki.getById($services.wiki.currentWikiId).mainPageReference,
>> > >> > etc.) can be found if problems arise in daily use.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > WDYT?
>> > >> >
>> > >> > ----------
>> > >> > [1]
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal4Setthispageashomepage
>> > >> >
>> > >> > On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 6:10 PM, Jeremie BOUSQUET <
>> > >> > [hidden email]> wrote:
>> > >> >
>> > >> > > Hi,
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > 2014-10-28 21:08 GMT+01:00 [hidden email] :
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > > On 28 Oct 2014 at 20:28:15, Jeremie BOUSQUET (
>> > >> > [hidden email]
>> > >> > > > (mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > > > Hi,
>> > >> > > > > Le 28 oct. 2014 19:39, "Eduard Moraru" a écrit :
>> > >> > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > Hi Vincent,
>> > >> > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 11:05 AM, [hidden email]
>> > >> > > > > > wrote:
>> > >> > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > Hi,
>> > >> > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > On 24 Oct 2014 at 21:18:31, Eduard Moraru (
>> > >> [hidden email]
>> > >> > > > (mailto:
>> > >> > > > > > > [hidden email])) wrote:
>> > >> > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > Hi,
>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > 2 new proposals (P6 and P7) have been made recently. I did
>> > >> not
>> > >> > > yet
>> > >> > > > get
>> > >> > > > > > > the
>> > >> > > > > > > > chance to add comments/analysis on them. Feel free to do
>> > it
>> > >> in
>> > >> > > the
>> > >> > > > > > > > meanwhile if anybody wants to.
>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > A few notes on Jeremie's "Proposal7: DistrbutionWizard
>> > sets
>> > >> the
>> > >> > > > > homepage
>> > >> > > > > > > of
>> > >> > > > > > > > a flavor and the Help App teaches users" [2]:
>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > Personally, I find it a rather elegant solution based on
>> > >> > > > separation of
>> > >> > > > > > > > concerns. However, you need to be aware that it is a
>> > >> > medium/long
>> > >> > > > term
>> > >> > > > > > > > objective.
>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > The way I understood it is that we delegate the task of
>> > >> > choosing
>> > >> > > a
>> > >> > > > > > > homepage
>> > >> > > > > > > > to the DistributionWizard that will most likely be in
>> > charge
>> > >> of
>> > >> > > > > offering
>> > >> > > > > > > > the user flavor options. At that point, the homepage of
>> > the
>> > >> > > current
>> > >> > > > > wiki
>> > >> > > > > > > > will be the homepage of the user selected flavor.
>> > Optionally,
>> > >> > we
>> > >> > > > can
>> > >> > > > > also
>> > >> > > > > > > > propose to use a blank page as homepage if the user wants,
>> > >> > > however
>> > >> > > > > this
>> > >> > > > > > > > might be a bit of an overkill, since the user can easily
>> > edit
>> > >> > the
>> > >> > > > page
>> > >> > > > > > > and
>> > >> > > > > > > > trash everything.
>> > >> > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > The DW should not know at all about any page. It should be
>> > up
>> > >> to
>> > >> > > the
>> > >> > > > > > > flavor to define the wiki pages it will contain and install.
>> > >> Each
>> > >> > > > flavor
>> > >> > > > > > > should propose its own home page.
>> > >> > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > Maybe I did not choose the best words, but the way I
>> > understood
>> > >> it
>> > >> > > (and
>> > >> > > > > > tried to reformulate it) was not that the DW explicitly allows
>> > >> you
>> > >> > to
>> > >> > > > > > select a homepage, but that indirectly, through allowing you
>> > to
>> > >> > > > install a
>> > >> > > > > > flavor, it will additionally do the job (again, indirectly) of
>> > >> > making
>> > >> > > > you
>> > >> > > > > > choose a homepage (through the flavor you have selected).
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > > > Yes that was the idea, possibly:
>> > >> > > > > - DW doesn't have to know pages or set homepage
>> > >> > > > > - there could be a new wizard, similar to wizards for new page /
>> > >> > space
>> > >> > > > from
>> > >> > > > > template, that allows choosing a kind of homepage (empty, wiki
>> > >> > > concepts,
>> > >> > > > > dashboard, etc)
>> > >> > > > > - a flavor also adds its homepage as a possible "template"
>> > >> > > > > - btw it could be exactly the new space from template page, but
>> > >> with
>> > >> > > more
>> > >> > > > > choices than current (empty / dashboard)
>> > >> > > > > - following a dw run and a flavor installation, this "new Main
>> > >> space
>> > >> > > > > homepage from template" wizard is triggered and displayed (or
>> > just
>> > >> > > > proposed
>> > >> > > > > to user through a button or link), and allows user to either
>> > choose
>> > >> > > > default
>> > >> > > > > homepage of the flavor, or use another one
>> > >> > > > > - current (or reworked) homepage is just the default home of the
>> > >> > > default
>> > >> > > > > flavor (which is the current XE xar)
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > > ok but:
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > > 1) it’s complex since it means that a flavor would need to
>> > register
>> > >> > some
>> > >> > > > kind of post install script to execute (which is something we
>> > don’t
>> > >> > > really
>> > >> > > > have)
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > Depends, I was thinking more about a specific event like "flavor
>> > >> > installed"
>> > >> > > or "extension installed" or "wiki installed / updated". I'm not
>> > sure to
>> > >> > get
>> > >> > > what you would need to do in this post install script ?
>> > >> > > But it could be completely "manual" or just a link at the end of DW
>> > to
>> > >> > some
>> > >> > > possible post-install stuff (like, consult help, manage home page,
>> > >> etc).
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > I'd like to apologize here because my "proposal" was more an idea
>> > than
>> > >> a
>> > >> > > well formalized proposal, even if it ended up in the list of
>> > proposals,
>> > >> > > it's obvious that it misses some thoughts and clarifications... (I
>> > >> > > understand your -1).
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > > 2) it negates a bit the point of a flavor which is to propose a
>> > >> defined
>> > >> > > > “theme” and thus a defined home page matching that theme
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > Well, if you consider that current UI of XE is the default xwiki
>> > >> > "flavor",
>> > >> > > this is exactly what it's about when we talk about switching home
>> > page
>> > >> > > easily, isn't it ? We want to let user set a home page that doesn't
>> > >> match
>> > >> > > the default theme freely. Obviously this default theme is not very
>> > >> > > "thematic" as it's the default and should be versatile ...
>> > >> > > Home page matching that theme could still be the mostly recommended
>> > >> > choice.
>> > >> > > BTW a flavor, with such mechanism, could provide several "home page"
>> > >> > > variants and not only one, depending on the case.
>> > >> > > If I take the case of a flavor based on the Mail archive (or the
>> > mail
>> > >> > > archive extension alone, say), it already provides different views
>> > as
>> > >> the
>> > >> > > app home page (timeline, livetable, etc). Currently the switch is
>> > done
>> > >> > > through conditional include. Currently that app home page is
>> > >> > > MailArchive.WebHome, if I could register it as a possible home page
>> > >> > > template, it would avoid having to rename it "Main.WebHome" to make
>> > it
>> > >> a
>> > >> > > flavor (and potentially destroy existing wiki home page by mistake
>> > when
>> > >> > you
>> > >> > > install that extension/flavor), and I could fullfill both
>> > installation
>> > >> > > use-cases (of using it as an app among others in some wiki, and as a
>> > >> > > wiki-wide-flavor in another wiki or subwiki), from the same xar
>> > bundled
>> > >> > > app.
>> > >> > > Again, here, I talk about possibilities and use-cases that seem
>> > logical
>> > >> > or
>> > >> > > interesting to me if I dig into my proposal, but I really don't
>> > know if
>> > >> > > it's a good path or even a good idea for xwiki - I may not have the
>> > big
>> > >> > > picture :)
>> > >> > > Also, the proposal certainly does not offer any solution for
>> > short-term
>> > >> > (if
>> > >> > > you consider it provides options for long-term ;-) )
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > > 3) it doesn’t solve anything since once you select a default
>> > homepage
>> > >> > you
>> > >> > > > still need a way to change it afterwards if you want to change it…
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > There was the side-idea of the proposal (not well formulated, maybe
>> > was
>> > >> > > just in my mind) that this wizard and/or DW could be triggered at
>> > any
>> > >> > later
>> > >> > > time by an admin if he wants to replace homepage with some other
>> > >> > "default"
>> > >> > > content. Maybe could be seen as a "personalization" step following a
>> > >> new
>> > >> > > wiki install or upgrade, but that could be triggered at any later
>> > time
>> > >> to
>> > >> > > "re-personalize" his wiki. I would put this then also as a feature
>> > in
>> > >> > admin
>> > >> > > UI.
>> > >> > > The difference with some other proposals, is that it would not be an
>> > >> > action
>> > >> > > available from the standard UI but limited to a post-install step
>> > and
>> > >> the
>> > >> > > admin UI (not like the variant below).
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > > I don’t see how this is much better than having a Admin UI
>> > allowing
>> > >> you
>> > >> > > to
>> > >> > > > change the home page you wish to have. However it’s a lot more
>> > >> complex
>> > >> > > (and
>> > >> > > > really marginally better).
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > > > Maybe instead of all this, it could be enough to unrelate the
>> > "new
>> > >> > > space"
>> > >> > > > > and "apply space homepage template" features ?
>> > >> > > > > So I would just have to call "space / apply template" to replace
>> > >> the
>> > >> > > > > homepage of any space already existing (including Main
>> > obviously) ?
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > > Yes that’s better already IMO but then it should be a menu option
>> > to
>> > >> > > > replace any page content with a page template.
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > I'm not sure if you talk about an additional option, or an option
>> > that
>> > >> > > would replace the "space /apply template" by a more generic "page /
>> > >> apply
>> > >> > > template", but I don't think anyway that a page template is the same
>> > >> > thing
>> > >> > > as a home page template (whether it's a space or wiki home page).
>> > You'd
>> > >> > > seldom want to use a blog post as a home page ...
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > In this variant, there's still the question, if applying such
>> > template
>> > >> is
>> > >> > > considered an admin operation or not. If it's an admin operation,
>> > you
>> > >> > also
>> > >> > > proposed to start moving those admin actions to the admin UI, which
>> > is
>> > >> -
>> > >> > > sort of - what was my proposal about in first place :) (I didn't
>> > talk
>> > >> > > specifically about admin UI at that time, but about avoiding to
>> > crowd
>> > >> > > standard UI menus with unfrequent/admin operations).
>> > >> > > That being said I don't think it's an admin action, if you need to
>> > >> > protect
>> > >> > > home page, as an admin you can set specific rights and forbid this
>> > >> "apply
>> > >> > > template" to people that don't have those edit rights. I'm not sure
>> > >> > editing
>> > >> > > home page and applying a template should really be different in
>> > terms
>> > >> of
>> > >> > > privileges. But applying a template on an existing page or home
>> > page,
>> > >> > seems
>> > >> > > to be a rather unfrequent operation.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > > Thanks
>> > >> > > > -Vincent
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > > > > It was just a high level view on the direction to follow, and
>> > >> not a
>> > >> > > > > > specific technical aspect, so no reason to -1 it, right?
>> > >> > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > BTW there’s also another variation for the home page that
>> > >> hasn’t
>> > >> > > been
>> > >> > > > > > > discussed yet:
>> > >> > > > > > > * Make the home page special by not making it editable (and
>> > >> > without
>> > >> > > > any
>> > >> > > > > > > docextra tabs at the bottom). So no rollback issue/edit
>> > >> > weirdness.
>> > >> > > > > > > * Only admins can change it and only through the Admin UI
>> > >> > > (basically
>> > >> > > > > > > decide which space home page to display on the wiki home
>> > page).
>> > >> > > > > > > * Somewhere in the content of the default home page or
>> > through
>> > >> > the
>> > >> > > > first
>> > >> > > > > > > time wizard, direct the users to the Sandbox page to try it
>> > out
>> > >> > > > editing
>> > >> > > > > > > (since this is what Sandbox is for!)
>> > >> > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > Adding this too and I think we`re good for going forward with
>> > a
>> > >> > vote,
>> > >> > > > > since
>> > >> > > > > > we have plenty of proposals.
>> > >> > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > Thanks,
>> > >> > > > > > Eduard
>> > >> > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > Thanks
>> > >> > > > > > > -Vincent
>> > >> > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > The task of teaching the user is delegated exclusively to
>> > the
>> > >> > > Help
>> > >> > > > > > > > Application, with the note that the application will also
>> > be
>> > >> > > > proposed
>> > >> > > > > to
>> > >> > > > > > > > the user to be redirected to, as a final step in the DW
>> > >> (after
>> > >> > > the
>> > >> > > > > > > > installation of the user selected flavor is complete).
>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > All of this assumes that we have a properly working
>> > Flavors
>> > >> > > feature
>> > >> > > > > and
>> > >> > > > > > > > Help Application. However, what should we do in the
>> > meanwhile
>> > >> > for
>> > >> > > > the
>> > >> > > > > > > > default XWiki Enterprise UI / Flavor / build? Should we
>> > >> > postpone
>> > >> > > > yet
>> > >> > > > > > > again
>> > >> > > > > > > > any work on the homepage until we have the needed
>> > elements to
>> > >> > > > delegate
>> > >> > > > > > > the
>> > >> > > > > > > > problematic aspects, or should we do something about it in
>> > >> the
>> > >> > > > > meanwhile?
>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > Thanks,
>> > >> > > > > > > > Eduard
>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > ----------
>> > >> > > > > > > > [1]
>> > >> > > > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposals
>> > >> > > > > > > > [2]
>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal7DistrbutionWizardsetsthehomepageofaflavorandtheHelpAppteachesusers
>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie"
>> > >> > > > Delhumeau <
>> > >> > > > > > > > [hidden email]> wrote:
>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > Hello.
>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > I have again a new argument against using the dashboard
>> > and
>> > >> > the
>> > >> > > > > include
>> > >> > > > > > > > > macro in the main page.
>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > When the user uses the "Inline" editor to change some
>> > >> > gadgets,
>> > >> > > > she
>> > >> > > > > can
>> > >> > > > > > > not
>> > >> > > > > > > > > use the rollback action of the main page to cancel her
>> > >> > changes.
>> > >> > > > She
>> > >> > > > > > > has to
>> > >> > > > > > > > > go to the Dashboard page first, and then rollback her
>> > >> changes
>> > >> > > > from
>> > >> > > > > > > there.
>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > Having an include macro in the default page is
>> > absolutely
>> > >> not
>> > >> > > > > > > intuitive,
>> > >> > > > > > > > > even if you make it appears more clearly.
>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > Thanks,
>> > >> > > > > > > > > Guillaume
>> > >> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > >> > > > devs mailing list
>> > >> > > > [hidden email]
>> > >> > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > _______________________________________________
>> > >> > > devs mailing list
>> > >> > > [hidden email]
>> > >> > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > _______________________________________________
>> > >> > devs mailing list
>> > >> > [hidden email]
>> > >> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > >> Guillaume Delhumeau ([hidden email])
>> > >> Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
>> > >> Committer on the XWiki.org project
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> devs mailing list
>> > >> [hidden email]
>> > >> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>> > >>
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > devs mailing list
>> > > [hidden email]
>> > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > devs mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Guillaume Delhumeau ([hidden email])
>> Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
>> Committer on the XWiki.org project
>> _______________________________________________
>> devs mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs



--
Thomas Mortagne
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