New Page Has No Parent

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New Page Has No Parent

Randy Havens
When I create a new page in my Main space, the "Parent" field defaults to empty, but when I create a new page in any other space, it defaults to the name of that space. When a user tries to post a new page with the parent empty, they get an "access denied" message, but if you put "Main" in the parent it works as expected. Is there a way to default this value to "Main" when not in another space, instead of having it default blank? This wasn't an issue up to XWiki 7.1.2, but it is an issue in 7.3 and 7.4 - when nested pages started getting worked on.
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Re: New Page Has No Parent

Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau
Hello Randy.

I do not reproduce your problem. Does the user try to create terminal pages?

Thanks,

2015-12-28 22:51 GMT+01:00 Randy Havens <[hidden email]>:

> When I create a new page in my Main space, the "Parent" field defaults to
> empty, but when I create a new page in any other space, it defaults to the
> name of that space. When a user tries to post a new page with the parent
> empty, they get an "access denied" message, but if you put "Main" in the
> parent it works as expected. Is there a way to default this value to "Main"
> when not in another space, instead of having it default blank? This wasn't
> an issue up to XWiki 7.1.2, but it is an issue in 7.3 and 7.4 - when nested
> pages started getting worked on.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://xwiki.475771.n2.nabble.com/New-Page-Has-No-Parent-tp7597344.html
> Sent from the XWiki- Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>



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Re: New Page Has No Parent

Randy Havens
This post was updated on .
OK, I just did some of my own troubleshooting and got some new information.

When I click the "+" icon to create a new page from my "Main" space, as mentioned the parent is blank by default. I used my admin account to go through with creating a new page with no parent, and that page became a space. That explains why my non-admin user gets "access denied", because my non-admin users don't have access to create new spaces. The question remains: Why is the "parent" field blank when I try to add a new page from my "Main" space, but not from the other spaces that I've created?

Edit: Added screenshot of what I'm seeing. The "Path.To.Page" is filled in when adding to other spaces.

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Re: New Page Has No Parent

Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau
Hi Andy.

It's actually a controversial feature: on the main page, we assume that
users don't necessary want to create a child of that page, meanwhile on
other pages, we assume that creating a child page is OK.

But some users already have reported this behavior as weird, and your
message is comforting them. If you want to see more:
http://markmail.org/message/dqrqsul32bs4h53w

So the short answer is: it's normal.

Thanks,



2015-12-29 14:13 GMT+01:00 Randy Havens <[hidden email]>:

> OK, I just did some of my own troubleshooting and got some new information.
>
> When I click the "+" icon to create a new page from my "Main" space, as
> mentioned the parent is blank by default. I used my admin account to go
> through with creating a new page with no parent, and that page became a
> space. That explains why my non-admin user gets "access denied", because my
> non-admin users don't have access to create new spaces. The question
> remains: Why is the "parent" field blank when I try to add a new page from
> my "Main" space, but not from the other spaces that I've created?
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://xwiki.475771.n2.nabble.com/New-Page-Has-No-Parent-tp7597344p7597346.html
> Sent from the XWiki- Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>



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Re: New Page Has No Parent

Randy Havens
That seems very counter-intuitive. It also is very inconsistent. It creates a child by default when within a specific space, but not when on the home page? I somewhat follow the thought process behind this, but it causes a huge inconsistency and a lot of confusion. From the link that you sent, it seems that I am not alone in thinking that the old way was more intuitive.

How can I make it so that it returns to that functionality? I am not going to be able to instruct all of my users to put "Main" in the location before creating a new page. Especially since some users have access to multiple spaces, and it works as expected in other spaces.

Luckily, 7.4 is currently only running in a test environment, and my production environment is still running 7.1.2. I don't plan on upgrading my production environment until I can get this figured out. (aka - working the way that my users and I are used to.)
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Re: New Page Has No Parent

vmassol
Administrator
Hi Randy,


On 29 Dec 2015 at 18:52:05, Randy Havens ([hidden email](mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:

> That seems very counter-intuitive. It also is very inconsistent. It creates a
> child by default when within a specific space, but not when on the home
> page?

Yes that’s correct. If you go in the main space and add a page it’ll correctly create a child page inside the Main space.

> I somewhat follow the thought process behind this, but it causes a
> huge inconsistency and a lot of confusion. From the link that you sent, it
> seems that I am not alone in thinking that the old way was more intuitive.
>  
> How can I make it so that it returns to that functionality? I am not going
> to be able to instruct all of my users to put "Main" in the location before
> creating a new page. Especially since some users have access to multiple
> spaces, and it works as expected in other spaces.

It also works like this for the Main space :) It’s only the Home page that is affected.

For my information, could you explain why you wish that all your users create content pages in the Main space?

Why not, for example, have a Content space at the top level or some more semantic top level space name under which you’d put all your content?

Maybe the real underlying issue is that you wish to control where your users put content by default (whether in the Main space or some other Content space)? And you’d wish to avoid having lots of top level spaces created “by mistake”?

On our side we have to balance the following 2 use cases:
* UC1: Create new top level spaces by default when on the home page
* UC2: Create new pages inside the Main space by default when on the home page

Note that it’s only a question of default since the user can pick the parent when in the Create UI.

One solution of course would be to introduce a configuration option, allowing to choose the reference of the Space into which to create new pages by default when clicking on “+” on the Home page. Note that this would allow admins to define a Content space where they’d want users to create content by default when on the home page.

Now, even with a configuration option we’d still need to decide what the default would be :) Right now, for the sake of not having tons of top level spaces created by mistakes, I think I’d lean to having pages created in the Main space by default, as we had before.

@Edy: WDYT? (asking Edy since he was the one who proposed the change and he may have some good arguments I haven’t mentioned above)

Thanks
-Vincent

> Luckily, 7.4 is currently only running in a test environment, and my
> production environment is still running 7.1.2. I don't plan on upgrading my
> production environment until I can get this figured out. (aka - working the
> way that my users and I are used to.)

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Re: New Page Has No Parent

Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau
At least we should not propose to create a top-level page if the user has
not the right to do it.

2015-12-30 9:07 GMT+01:00 [hidden email] <[hidden email]>:

> Hi Randy,
>
>
> On 29 Dec 2015 at 18:52:05, Randy Havens ([hidden email]
> (mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
>
> > That seems very counter-intuitive. It also is very inconsistent. It
> creates a
> > child by default when within a specific space, but not when on the home
> > page?
>
> Yes that’s correct. If you go in the main space and add a page it’ll
> correctly create a child page inside the Main space.
>
> > I somewhat follow the thought process behind this, but it causes a
> > huge inconsistency and a lot of confusion. From the link that you sent,
> it
> > seems that I am not alone in thinking that the old way was more
> intuitive.
> >
> > How can I make it so that it returns to that functionality? I am not
> going
> > to be able to instruct all of my users to put "Main" in the location
> before
> > creating a new page. Especially since some users have access to multiple
> > spaces, and it works as expected in other spaces.
>
> It also works like this for the Main space :) It’s only the Home page that
> is affected.
>
> For my information, could you explain why you wish that all your users
> create content pages in the Main space?
>
> Why not, for example, have a Content space at the top level or some more
> semantic top level space name under which you’d put all your content?
>
> Maybe the real underlying issue is that you wish to control where your
> users put content by default (whether in the Main space or some other
> Content space)? And you’d wish to avoid having lots of top level spaces
> created “by mistake”?
>
> On our side we have to balance the following 2 use cases:
> * UC1: Create new top level spaces by default when on the home page
> * UC2: Create new pages inside the Main space by default when on the home
> page
>
> Note that it’s only a question of default since the user can pick the
> parent when in the Create UI.
>
> One solution of course would be to introduce a configuration option,
> allowing to choose the reference of the Space into which to create new
> pages by default when clicking on “+” on the Home page. Note that this
> would allow admins to define a Content space where they’d want users to
> create content by default when on the home page.
>
> Now, even with a configuration option we’d still need to decide what the
> default would be :) Right now, for the sake of not having tons of top level
> spaces created by mistakes, I think I’d lean to having pages created in the
> Main space by default, as we had before.
>
> @Edy: WDYT? (asking Edy since he was the one who proposed the change and
> he may have some good arguments I haven’t mentioned above)
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> > Luckily, 7.4 is currently only running in a test environment, and my
> > production environment is still running 7.1.2. I don't plan on upgrading
> my
> > production environment until I can get this figured out. (aka - working
> the
> > way that my users and I are used to.)
>
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>



--
Guillaume Delhumeau ([hidden email])
Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
Committer on the XWiki.org project
_______________________________________________
users mailing list
[hidden email]
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RE: New Page Has No Parent

Randy Havens
In reply to this post by vmassol

> Yes that’s correct. If you go in the main space and add a page it’ll correctly create a child page inside the Main space.

 

How do I “go in the main space”? Until now, I was in the main space by default when I was at the homepage of my wiki. If I click on “Main” in the list of spaces, it takes me to that same homepage. From there, if I add a page it has no parent. If I click on another space in that list, it takes me to that space’s homepage. From there, if I create a new page the parent is that space. It’s not consistent.

 

> For my information, could you explain why you wish that all your users create content pages in the Main space?

 

That’s how it has been working since I first installed XWiki. I installed 6.3, and since then (up until pre-7.3) all new pages defaulted into the Main space unless the user entered a different space. I thought that was normal, but you make it sound like that’s not normal.

 

> Why not, for example, have a Content space at the top level or some more semantic top level space name under which you’d put all your content?

 

I thought about that as well, but then I need to transfer everything currently in “Main” into another space. I guess that would be possible, but I’d have to copy it all into the “Content” space and then delete it from “Main”. (Which might not be a bad idea anyway for other reasons)

 

> One solution of course would be to introduce a configuration option, allowing to choose the reference of the Space into which to create new pages by default when clicking on “+” on the Home page.

 

I think this is the best solution, honestly. Mostly because of the way that it worked before, but also because it would give the administrators an important choice.

 

> I think I’d lean to having pages created in the Main space by default, as we had before.

 

I would agree.

 

 

 

Thanks for the reply and suggestions,

Randy

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Re: New Page Has No Parent

Guillaume Lerouge
Hi Randy,

thanks for your feedback on this! I'm happy to see that I wasn't the only
one who found this behavior counter-intuitive. It's very, very weird that
page creation from the home page behaves differently from everywhere else
on the wiki. It's particularly bad since that's the page users always end
up going back to. But the thing is, without this behavior it's not clear
how users would be able to create new top-level spaces... So if we bring
back the old behavior as-is we'd still have to find a solution for
top-level space creation.

A suggestion I had now that nested spaces are activated by default was to
make the home page of the wiki be "above" every other space. Said
differently, the home page would reside directly at
https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/
without anything else being mentioned. From that page you'd be able to
create top-level spaces, and every other page would behave as expected,
including Main.WebHome. I think this is what would feel the most natural,
but it causes many underlying issues, notably because a page with no
document reference cannot really exist in XWiki right now.

Note that we could also offer migration scripts, as discussed below, so
that content wouldn't be created in Main to begin with, but this still
leaves the problem open for old wikis with no clear content migration path.
Maybe we should strongly warn users not to upgrade to 7.4 from versions =<
7.1 without a lot of testing and until we provide a good migration path. We
could also start a page listing known issues.

Thanks,

Guillaume

On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Randy Havens <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> > Yes that’s correct. If you go in the main space and add a page it’ll
> correctly create a child page inside the Main space.
>
> How do I “go in the main space”? Until now, I was in the main space by
> default when I was at the homepage of my wiki. If I click on “Main” in the
> list of spaces, it takes me to that same homepage. From there, if I add a
> page it has no parent. If I click on another space in that list, it takes
> me to that space’s homepage. From there, if I create a new page the parent
> is that space. It’s not consistent.
>
> > For my information, could you explain why you wish that all your users
> create content pages in the Main space?
>
> That’s how it has been working since I first installed XWiki. I installed
> 6.3, and since then (up until pre-7.3) all new pages defaulted into the
> Main space unless the user entered a different space. I thought that was
> normal, but you make it sound like that’s not normal.
>
> > Why not, for example, have a Content space at the top level or some more
> semantic top level space name under which you’d put all your content?
>
> I thought about that as well, but then I need to transfer everything
> currently in “Main” into another space. I guess that would be possible, but
> I’d have to copy it all into the “Content” space and then delete it from
> “Main”. (Which might not be a bad idea anyway for other reasons)
>
> > One solution of course would be to introduce a configuration option,
> allowing to choose the reference of the Space into which to create new
> pages by default when clicking on “+” on the Home page.
>
> I think this is the best solution, honestly. Mostly because of the way
> that it worked before, but also because it would give the administrators an
> important choice.
>
> > I think I’d lean to having pages created in the Main space by default,
> as we had before.
>
> I would agree.
>
>
>
> Thanks for the reply and suggestions,
> Randy
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://xwiki.475771.n2.nabble.com/New-Page-Has-No-Parent-tp7597344p7597351.html
> Sent from the XWiki- Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>
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RE: New Page Has No Parent

Randy Havens

> So if we bring

> back the old behavior as-is we'd still have to find a solution for

> top-level space creation.

 

That’s already taken care of. This is how I always created spaces before: (this is a screenshot from my 7.4 instance, so I know that it is still an option)

cid:image001.png@01D146C6.3625A240

> A suggestion I had now that nested spaces are activated by default was to
> make the home page of the wiki be "above" every other space. Said
> differently, the home page would reside directly at
> https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/
> without anything else being mentioned. From that page you'd be able to
> create top-level spaces, and every other page would behave as expected,
> including Main.WebHome. I think this is what would feel the most natural,
> but it causes many underlying issues, notably because a page with no
> document reference cannot really exist in XWiki right now.

I agree. This seems to be a sensible solution.

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Re: New Page Has No Parent

Eduard Moraru
Hi Randy,

From your choice of words (and your continued usage of the now deprecated
"spaces" macro on the homepage, as observed in the screenshot you`ve
provided), I understand that you still see things in terms of "creating
spaces" and "creating documents inside spaces" in 7.4 and, IMO, that`s
really the issue.

In case you`ve missed it from the release notes, starting with 7.2, we`ve
introduced the notion of Nested Pages [1], which means that you no longer
have the notion of "pages inside spaces", but always "pages inside pages".
Technically, it is actually implemented by always creating a "space" when
you create a page from the UI, but the user should see it as if he is
always creating a page.

= Use Case 1 =

When your users go to your homepage and create a new page "under the Main
space", they are actually creating a nested page (old "space"), under the
homepage (document called "Main") of your wiki. If you change [2] the
homepage of your wiki to point to a different document instead (say
"Some.Other.Homepage"), I`m fairly sure that you do not want your users to
start creating new pages as children of that page (e.g.
"Some.Other.Homepage.NewUserPage"), because that is what the alternative
would lead to.

The logic behind the original decision of handling the homepage differently
was that, even as Guillaume was hinting, the homepage is seen as the "root"
of your wiki. Creating a page from the root should result in creating top
level pages, not child pages. If you wanted to create a child page of
something from the homepage, you would explicitly do so by selecting a
parent. Not selecting a parent while on the homepage would logically imply
that you want to create a page in the wiki (i.e. top page).

I`m curious why do you find it normal the other way around, i.e. landing on
the wiki (i.e. not navigating somewhere in particular) + creating a new
page => resulting in creating a child page of the "Main" page (which
happens to be the homepage).

If you always create child pages of the homepage ("Main" page), on the long
run, all your URLs will be /Main/This/Page, /Main/That/Page,
/Main/That/Other/Page, etc... but ultimately, what is this "Main", and why
is it that important to drag it along in all your page URLs? (of course,
again, if you change your homepage to "Some.Other.Homepage", all your urls
will be prefixed by that!)

= Use case 2 =

Now, another way of looking at this would be that, for some reason, you
*really* want to keep all your content under some top level page (e.g. as
Vincent suggested, a "Content" container page), perhaps to separate it from
applications (which, for historic reasons, currently are also located in
the top level) like Blog, Sandbox, etc. or any other reason.

The only limitation in this usecase is if you also want to use that
container page ("Main", "Content", etc.) as your homepage. In this case,
indeed, I see no other solution but to modify the createinline.vm template
or for us to drop this behavior altogether.

---

Conclusion so far:
We have 2 use cases regarding a new page's parent. They can both coexist,
except that, in some cases, the 2nd use case is limited by the first use
case. If we consider this limitation to be a deal breaker, then we are left
with 2 choices:
A. Drop use case 1 (i.e. always propose the current page as parent of the
new page, regardless if the current page is the homepage or not)
B. Make use case 1 configurable (i.e. enable or disable it completely, in
case you are suffering from the limitation of the second use case; this
allows the user to decide if it's useful or not)

Of course, if option B is what we go for, we also need to figure out where
we would put such a configuration.

I would be in favor of option B (since I obviously believe that use case 1
is something useful for the majority of cases), but have no idea on the
location of the configuration.

WDYT?

Thanks for all your feedback so far and I`m counting on your help and
anyone else interested to reach a conclusion regarding this.

-Eduard

----------
[1] http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Features/ContentOrganization
[2]
http://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/FAQ/How+to+change+the+home+page+destination

On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 3:13 PM, Randy Havens <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> > So if we bring
> > back the old behavior as-is we'd still have to find a solution for
> > top-level space creation.
>
> That’s already taken care of. This is how I always created spaces before:
> (this is a screenshot from my 7.4 instance, so I know that it is still an
> option)
>
> [cid:image001.png@01D146C6.3625A240]
> > A suggestion I had now that nested spaces are activated by default was to
> > make the home page of the wiki be "above" every other space. Said
> > differently, the home page would reside directly at
> > https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/<https://%3cserver%3e/xwiki/bin/view/>
> > without anything else being mentioned. From that page you'd be able to
> > create top-level spaces, and every other page would behave as expected,
> > including Main.WebHome. I think this is what would feel the most natural,
> > but it causes many underlying issues, notably because a page with no
> > document reference cannot really exist in XWiki right now.
>
> I agree. This seems to be a sensible solution.
>
>
> image001.png (23K) <
> http://xwiki.475771.n2.nabble.com/attachment/7597376/0/image001.png>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://xwiki.475771.n2.nabble.com/New-Page-Has-No-Parent-tp7597344p7597376.html
> Sent from the XWiki- Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>
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