[Proposal] Capitalization rules

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[Proposal] Capitalization rules

vmassol
Administrator
Hi devs,

Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels (http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.

I’ve found this document from MSDN:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx

I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for Capitalization and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.

Example of labels:
* “Add comment” —> “Add Comment”
* “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”

WDYT?

Thanks
-Vincent
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Re: [Proposal] Capitalization rules

Manuel Smeria-2
Hello,

Here's my +1.

I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)

Thanks,
Manuel

On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi devs,
>
> Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels (
> http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea
> that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
>
> I’ve found this document from MSDN:
>
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx
>
> I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for Capitalization
> and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
>
> Example of labels:
> * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment”
> * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
>
> WDYT?
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: [Proposal] Capitalization rules

Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the
Translations?

I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't like it, can
create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also note that
certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems capitalizing
all the words.

In your example:
* “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or none,
we cannot skip one.

Thanks,
Caty


On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Here's my +1.
>
> I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
>
> Thanks,
> Manuel
>
> On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi devs,
> >
> > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels (
> > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea
> > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
> >
> > I’ve found this document from MSDN:
> >
> >
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx
> >
> > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for Capitalization
> > and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
> >
> > Example of labels:
> > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment”
> > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> >
> > WDYT?
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> > _______________________________________________
> > devs mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: [Proposal] Capitalization rules

vmassol
Administrator
Hi Caty, 


On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ([hidden email](mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:

> Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the
> Translations?
>  
> I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't like it, can
> create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also note that
> certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems capitalizing
> all the words.
>  
> In your example:
> * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or none,
> we cannot skip one.  

I’d be -1 for CSS since:

* extra CPU work not required
* doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default"
* it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to change! If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations (similar use case than if they wish to change some wording)

Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not proposing anything for other languages (each language has its own rules regarding Capitalization).

Thanks
-Vincent


> Thanks,
> Caty
>  
>  
> On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote:
>  
> > Hello,
> >
> > Here's my +1.
> >
> > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Manuel
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [hidden email]  
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi devs,
> > >
> > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels (
> > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea
> > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
> > >
> > > I’ve found this document from MSDN:
> > >
> > >
> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx
> > >
> > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for Capitalization
> > > and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
> > >
> > > Example of labels:
> > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment”
> > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > >
> > > WDYT?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > -Vincent
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Re: [Proposal] Capitalization rules

Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the skin
and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your solution we
would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new format.
Is a lengthy process.

If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one language,
thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally.
The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel, all
the other languages will look 'less professional'.

Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.

Thanks,
Caty

On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi Caty,
>
>
> On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ([hidden email]
> (mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
>
> > Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the
> > Translations?
> >
> > I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't like it,
> can
> > create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also note
> that
> > certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems capitalizing
> > all the words.
> >
> > In your example:
> > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or none,
> > we cannot skip one.
>
> I’d be -1 for CSS since:
>
> * extra CPU work not required
> * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default"
> * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to change!
> If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations (similar
> use case than if they wish to change some wording)
>
> Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not proposing
> anything for other languages (each language has its own rules regarding
> Capitalization).
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>
> > Thanks,
> > Caty
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > Here's my +1.
> > >
> > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Manuel
> > >
> > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [hidden email]
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi devs,
> > > >
> > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels (
> > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good
> idea
> > > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
> > > >
> > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN:
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx
> > > >
> > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for
> Capitalization
> > > > and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
> > > >
> > > > Example of labels:
> > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment”
> > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > > >
> > > > WDYT?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > -Vincent
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: [Proposal] Capitalization rules

Valdis Vītoliņš
In reply to this post by Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
> Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the
> Translations?

Definitely not. E.g. for Latvian capital letter (if other letters are
lowercase, of course) is used only at the beginning of sentence and for
proper nouns (names).

Valdis

> > Hello,
> >
> > Here's my +1.
> >
> > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Manuel
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi devs,
> > >
> > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels (
> > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea
> > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
> > >
> > > I’ve found this document from MSDN:
> > >
> > >
> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx
> > >
> > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for Capitalization
> > > and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
> > >
> > > Example of labels:
> > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment”
> > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > >
> > > WDYT?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > -Vincent
...

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Re: [Proposal] Capitalization rules

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
 




On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:14:50, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ([hidden email](mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:

> The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the skin
> and automatically we have all the translations fixed.

But our goal is not to capitalize all translations! It’s only to capitalize some (labels, column labels, titles, etc).

> With your solution we
> would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new format.
> Is a lengthy process.

No we don’t deprecate anything, we just need to fix some translations.

> If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one language,
> thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally.

It’s definitely -1 to for all languages since again each language has different capitalization rules.

> The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel, all
> the other languages will look 'less professional’.

That’s one of the worst possible reason I’ve ever heard ;)

> Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.

What? You mean someone changed the “Add comment” label translation (for example) from “Add Comment” to “Add comment” when we switched to Flamingo? Are you really sure?

Thanks
-Vincent

> Thanks,
> Caty
>  
> On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [hidden email]  
> wrote:
>  
> > Hi Caty,
> >
> >
> > On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ([hidden email]
> > (mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
> >
> > > Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the
> > > Translations?
> > >
> > > I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't like it,
> > can
> > > create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also note
> > that
> > > certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems capitalizing
> > > all the words.
> > >
> > > In your example:
> > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > > this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or none,
> > > we cannot skip one.
> >
> > I’d be -1 for CSS since:
> >
> > * extra CPU work not required
> > * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default"
> > * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to change!
> > If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations (similar
> > use case than if they wish to change some wording)
> >
> > Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not proposing
> > anything for other languages (each language has its own rules regarding
> > Capitalization).
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> >
> >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Caty
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello,
> > > >
> > > > Here's my +1.
> > > >
> > > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Manuel
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [hidden email]
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi devs,
> > > > >
> > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels (
> > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good
> > idea
> > > > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
> > > > >
> > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx
> > > > >
> > > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for
> > Capitalization
> > > > > and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
> > > > >
> > > > > Example of labels:
> > > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment”
> > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > > > >
> > > > > WDYT?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks
> > > > > -Vincent
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Re: [Proposal] Capitalization rules

Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:22 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
> On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:14:50, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ([hidden email]
> (mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
>
> > The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the skin
> > and automatically we have all the translations fixed.
>
> But our goal is not to capitalize all translations! It’s only to
> capitalize some (labels, column labels, titles, etc).
>
> > With your solution we
> > would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new
> format.
> > Is a lengthy process.
>
> No we don’t deprecate anything, we just need to fix some translations.
>
> > If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one language,
> > thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally.
>
> It’s definitely -1 to for all languages since again each language has
> different capitalization rules.
>
> > The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel, all
> > the other languages will look 'less professional’.
>
> That’s one of the worst possible reason I’ve ever heard ;)
>
> > Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.
>
> What? You mean someone changed the “Add comment” label translation (for
> example) from “Add Comment” to “Add comment” when we switched to Flamingo?
> Are you really sure?
>

I'm not saying someone changed something. I'm just saying that for many
years we had 'ADD' or 'LOOK & FEEL' keys, were we used uppercase. Flamingo
doesn't have this and this is why we observe now the capitalization
problem. One solution would be to put back the uppercase rule from Colibri.
It's just a though.

Thanks,
Caty


> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> > Thanks,
> > Caty
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [hidden email]
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Caty,
> > >
> > >
> > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (
> [hidden email]
> > > (mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
> > >
> > > > Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the
> > > > Translations?
> > > >
> > > > I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't like
> it,
> > > can
> > > > create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also note
> > > that
> > > > certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems
> capitalizing
> > > > all the words.
> > > >
> > > > In your example:
> > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > > > this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or
> none,
> > > > we cannot skip one.
> > >
> > > I’d be -1 for CSS since:
> > >
> > > * extra CPU work not required
> > > * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default"
> > > * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to
> change!
> > > If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations
> (similar
> > > use case than if they wish to change some wording)
> > >
> > > Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not
> proposing
> > > anything for other languages (each language has its own rules regarding
> > > Capitalization).
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > -Vincent
> > >
> > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Caty
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hello,
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's my +1.
> > > > >
> > > > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Manuel
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [hidden email]
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi devs,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels (
> > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a
> good
> > > idea
> > > > > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for
> > > Capitalization
> > > > > > and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Example of labels:
> > > > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment”
> > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > WDYT?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > -Vincent
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: [Proposal] Capitalization rules

Eduard Moraru
In reply to this post by Valdis Vītoliņš
Hi Valdis,

On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Valdis Vītoliņš <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> > Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the
> > Translations?
>
> Definitely not. E.g. for Latvian capital letter (if other letters are
> lowercase, of course) is used only at the beginning of sentence and for
> proper nouns (names).
>

We are talking about titles and labels here, not about sentences that
require language-specific rules.

Does you previous comment also apply to titles and labels in Latvian?

Examples:
"Document Name"
"Space Name"
"Page Title"
etc...

Thanks,
Eduard

>
> Valdis
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > Here's my +1.
> > >
> > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Manuel
> > >
> > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [hidden email] <
> [hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi devs,
> > > >
> > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels (
> > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good
> idea
> > > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
> > > >
> > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN:
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx
> > > >
> > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for
> Capitalization
> > > > and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
> > > >
> > > > Example of labels:
> > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment”
> > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > > >
> > > > WDYT?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > -Vincent
> ...
>
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: [Proposal] Capitalization rules

Eduard Moraru
In reply to this post by Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
Hi,

Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the translation's
concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to have a lot
of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a CSS
rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent.

Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri skin, as
Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start modifying
all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new translations
(or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do that. We
don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches.

Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a couple of
strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise CSS
itself is useless.

+1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels, button
labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still need to
come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and what CSS
classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will still
be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can not
catch with CSS.

Thanks,
Eduard



On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the skin
> and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your solution we
> would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new format.
> Is a lengthy process.
>
> If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one language,
> thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally.
> The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel, all
> the other languages will look 'less professional'.
>
> Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.
>
> Thanks,
> Caty
>
> On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Caty,
> >
> >
> > On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ([hidden email]
> > (mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
> >
> > > Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the
> > > Translations?
> > >
> > > I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't like it,
> > can
> > > create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also note
> > that
> > > certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems
> capitalizing
> > > all the words.
> > >
> > > In your example:
> > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > > this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or
> none,
> > > we cannot skip one.
> >
> > I’d be -1 for CSS since:
> >
> > * extra CPU work not required
> > * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default"
> > * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to change!
> > If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations
> (similar
> > use case than if they wish to change some wording)
> >
> > Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not proposing
> > anything for other languages (each language has its own rules regarding
> > Capitalization).
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> >
> >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Caty
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello,
> > > >
> > > > Here's my +1.
> > > >
> > > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Manuel
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [hidden email]
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi devs,
> > > > >
> > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels (
> > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good
> > idea
> > > > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
> > > > >
> > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx
> > > > >
> > > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for
> > Capitalization
> > > > > and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
> > > > >
> > > > > Example of labels:
> > > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment”
> > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > > > >
> > > > > WDYT?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks
> > > > > -Vincent
> > _______________________________________________
> > devs mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Proposal] Capitalization rules

vmassol
Administrator
Let’s backtrack!

The question I asked was NOT how do it!

I asked: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx and make that our own rule ad publish it.

Please try to answer that question.

Thanks
-Vincent

On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru ([hidden email](mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:

> Hi,
>  
> Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the translation's
> concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to have a lot
> of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a CSS
> rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent.
>  
> Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri skin, as
> Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start modifying
> all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new translations
> (or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do that. We
> don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches.
>  
> Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a couple of
> strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise CSS
> itself is useless.
>  
> +1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels, button
> labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still need to
> come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and what CSS
> classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will still
> be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can not
> catch with CSS.
>  
> Thanks,
> Eduard
>  
>  
>  
> On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>  
> > The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the skin
> > and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your solution we
> > would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new format.
> > Is a lengthy process.
> >
> > If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one language,
> > thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally.
> > The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel, all
> > the other languages will look 'less professional'.
> >
> > Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Caty
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [hidden email]  
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Caty,
> > >
> > >
> > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ([hidden email]
> > > (mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
> > >
> > > > Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the
> > > > Translations?
> > > >
> > > > I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't like it,
> > > can
> > > > create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also note
> > > that
> > > > certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems
> > capitalizing
> > > > all the words.
> > > >
> > > > In your example:
> > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > > > this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or
> > none,
> > > > we cannot skip one.
> > >
> > > I’d be -1 for CSS since:
> > >
> > > * extra CPU work not required
> > > * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default"
> > > * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to change!
> > > If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations
> > (similar
> > > use case than if they wish to change some wording)
> > >
> > > Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not proposing
> > > anything for other languages (each language has its own rules regarding
> > > Capitalization).
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > -Vincent
> > >
> > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Caty
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hello,
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's my +1.
> > > > >
> > > > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Manuel
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [hidden email]
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi devs,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels (
> > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good
> > > idea
> > > > > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for
> > > Capitalization
> > > > > > and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Example of labels:
> > > > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment”
> > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > WDYT?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > -Vincent
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > devs mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > devs mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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Re: [Proposal] Capitalization rules

vmassol
Administrator
 




On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:52:15, [hidden email] ([hidden email](mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:

> Let’s backtrack!
>  
> The question I asked was NOT how do it!  
>  
> I asked: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx and make that our own rule ad publish it. 


Let me reformulate because once more I forgot the English language:

Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx for our English translations and make that our own rule ad publish it. 

Thanks
-Vincent

>  
> Please try to answer that question.  
>  
> Thanks  
> -Vincent
>  
> On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru ([hidden email](mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
>  
> > Hi,
> >
> > Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the translation's
> > concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to have a lot
> > of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a CSS
> > rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent.
> >
> > Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri skin, as
> > Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start modifying
> > all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new translations
> > (or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do that. We
> > don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches.
> >
> > Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a couple of
> > strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise CSS
> > itself is useless.
> >
> > +1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels, button
> > labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still need to
> > come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and what CSS
> > classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will still
> > be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can not
> > catch with CSS.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Eduard
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the skin
> > > and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your solution we
> > > would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new format.
> > > Is a lengthy process.
> > >
> > > If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one language,
> > > thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally.
> > > The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel, all
> > > the other languages will look 'less professional'.
> > >
> > > Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Caty
> > >
> > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [hidden email]
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Caty,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ([hidden email]
> > > > (mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the
> > > > > Translations?
> > > > >
> > > > > I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't like it,
> > > > can
> > > > > create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also note
> > > > that
> > > > > certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems
> > > capitalizing
> > > > > all the words.
> > > > >
> > > > > In your example:
> > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > > > > this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or
> > > none,
> > > > > we cannot skip one.
> > > >
> > > > I’d be -1 for CSS since:
> > > >
> > > > * extra CPU work not required
> > > > * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default"
> > > > * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to change!
> > > > If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations
> > > (similar
> > > > use case than if they wish to change some wording)
> > > >
> > > > Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not proposing
> > > > anything for other languages (each language has its own rules regarding
> > > > Capitalization).
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > -Vincent
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Caty
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here's my +1.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Manuel
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [hidden email]
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi devs,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels (
> > > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good
> > > > idea
> > > > > > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for
> > > > Capitalization
> > > > > > > and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Example of labels:
> > > > > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment”
> > > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > WDYT?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > -Vincent
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Re: [Proposal] Capitalization rules

Eduard Moraru
In reply to this post by vmassol
The whole side-discussion started because we can not agree to those rules
before we agree how we do it: manually or automatically. If we agree on
automatically, then we can not, implicitly, agree on those rules.

Thanks,
Eduard

On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:52 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Let’s backtrack!
>
> The question I asked was NOT how do it!
>
> I asked: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx and
> make that our own rule ad publish it.
>
> Please try to answer that question.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru ([hidden email](mailto:
> [hidden email])) wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the translation's
> > concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to have a
> lot
> > of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a CSS
> > rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent.
> >
> > Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri skin, as
> > Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start modifying
> > all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new translations
> > (or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do that. We
> > don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches.
> >
> > Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a couple of
> > strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise CSS
> > itself is useless.
> >
> > +1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels, button
> > labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still need to
> > come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and what CSS
> > classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will still
> > be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can not
> > catch with CSS.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Eduard
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the
> skin
> > > and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your
> solution we
> > > would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new
> format.
> > > Is a lengthy process.
> > >
> > > If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one
> language,
> > > thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally.
> > > The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel,
> all
> > > the other languages will look 'less professional'.
> > >
> > > Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Caty
> > >
> > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [hidden email]
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Caty,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (
> [hidden email]
> > > > (mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the
> > > > > Translations?
> > > > >
> > > > > I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't
> like it,
> > > > can
> > > > > create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also
> note
> > > > that
> > > > > certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems
> > > capitalizing
> > > > > all the words.
> > > > >
> > > > > In your example:
> > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > > > > this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or
> > > none,
> > > > > we cannot skip one.
> > > >
> > > > I’d be -1 for CSS since:
> > > >
> > > > * extra CPU work not required
> > > > * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default"
> > > > * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to
> change!
> > > > If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations
> > > (similar
> > > > use case than if they wish to change some wording)
> > > >
> > > > Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not
> proposing
> > > > anything for other languages (each language has its own rules
> regarding
> > > > Capitalization).
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > -Vincent
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Caty
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here's my +1.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Manuel
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [hidden email]
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi devs,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels (
> > > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a
> good
> > > > idea
> > > > > > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for
> > > > Capitalization
> > > > > > > and to document that in our dev best practices on
> dev.xwiki.org.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Example of labels:
> > > > > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment”
> > > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > WDYT?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > -Vincent
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > devs mailing list
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > devs mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > devs mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: [Proposal] Capitalization rules

vmassol
Administrator
 




On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:55:52, Eduard Moraru ([hidden email](mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:

> The whole side-discussion started because we can not agree to those rules
> before we agree how we do it: manually or automatically. If we agree on
> automatically, then we can not, implicitly, agree on those rules.

The fact that it’s automatic or manual doesn’t change a single thing about the rule.

This is about the English language and how it’s applied to web pages, nothing to do with XWiki specifically. Do we want to follow the English language best practices, yes or no? I was expecting it to be a no brainer and everyone saying yes of course.

I’m asking a last time: do you agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx for the English language and make that our rule and publish it?

I personally agree about it.

Once we agree about it then:
- We will publish it at dev.xwiki.org and on l10n.xwiki.org too
- When translators write translations in English they’ll need to follow it (if they don’t it’ll be called a bug that will need to be fixed)
- We can optionally (if possible, ATM it’s not) decide to automatically implement it using CSS

Thanks
-Vincent

> Thanks,
> Eduard
>  
> On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:52 PM, [hidden email]  
> wrote:
>  
> > Let’s backtrack!
> >
> > The question I asked was NOT how do it!
> >
> > I asked: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at
> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx and
> > make that our own rule ad publish it.
> >
> > Please try to answer that question.
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> >
> > On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru ([hidden email](mailto:
> > [hidden email])) wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the translation's
> > > concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to have a
> > lot
> > > of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a CSS
> > > rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent.
> > >
> > > Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri skin, as
> > > Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start modifying
> > > all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new translations
> > > (or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do that. We
> > > don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches.
> > >
> > > Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a couple of
> > > strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise CSS
> > > itself is useless.
> > >
> > > +1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels, button
> > > labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still need to
> > > come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and what CSS
> > > classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will still
> > > be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can not
> > > catch with CSS.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Eduard
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the
> > skin
> > > > and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your
> > solution we
> > > > would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new
> > format.
> > > > Is a lengthy process.
> > > >
> > > > If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one
> > language,
> > > > thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally.
> > > > The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel,
> > all
> > > > the other languages will look 'less professional'.
> > > >
> > > > Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Caty
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [hidden email]
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Caty,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (
> > [hidden email]
> > > > > (mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the
> > > > > > Translations?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't
> > like it,
> > > > > can
> > > > > > create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also
> > note
> > > > > that
> > > > > > certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems
> > > > capitalizing
> > > > > > all the words.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In your example:
> > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > > > > > this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or
> > > > none,
> > > > > > we cannot skip one.
> > > > >
> > > > > I’d be -1 for CSS since:
> > > > >
> > > > > * extra CPU work not required
> > > > > * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default"
> > > > > * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to
> > change!
> > > > > If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations
> > > > (similar
> > > > > use case than if they wish to change some wording)
> > > > >
> > > > > Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not
> > proposing
> > > > > anything for other languages (each language has its own rules
> > regarding
> > > > > Capitalization).
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks
> > > > > -Vincent
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Caty
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Here's my +1.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > Manuel
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [hidden email]
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi devs,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels (
> > > > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a
> > good
> > > > > idea
> > > > > > > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for
> > > > > Capitalization
> > > > > > > > and to document that in our dev best practices on
> > dev.xwiki.org.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Example of labels:
> > > > > > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment”
> > > > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > WDYT?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > -Vincent
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Re: [Proposal] Capitalization rules

Marius Dumitru Florea
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 1:08 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
> On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:55:52, Eduard Moraru ([hidden email](mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
>
>> The whole side-discussion started because we can not agree to those rules
>> before we agree how we do it: manually or automatically. If we agree on
>> automatically, then we can not, implicitly, agree on those rules.
>
> The fact that it’s automatic or manual doesn’t change a single thing about the rule.
>
> This is about the English language and how it’s applied to web pages, nothing to do with XWiki specifically. Do we want to follow the English language best practices, yes or no? I was expecting it to be a no brainer and everyone saying yes of course.
>

> I’m asking a last time: do you agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx for the English language and make that our rule and publish it?

+1, those rules look good to me.

>
> I personally agree about it.
>
> Once we agree about it then:
> - We will publish it at dev.xwiki.org and on l10n.xwiki.org too
> - When translators write translations in English they’ll need to follow it (if they don’t it’ll be called a bug that will need to be fixed)

> - We can optionally (if possible, ATM it’s not) decide to automatically implement it using CSS

I don't think we can automate this with CSS.

Thanks,
Marius

>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>> Thanks,
>> Eduard
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:52 PM, [hidden email]
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Let’s backtrack!
>> >
>> > The question I asked was NOT how do it!
>> >
>> > I asked: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at
>> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx and
>> > make that our own rule ad publish it.
>> >
>> > Please try to answer that question.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> > -Vincent
>> >
>> > On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru ([hidden email](mailto:
>> > [hidden email])) wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hi,
>> > >
>> > > Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the translation's
>> > > concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to have a
>> > lot
>> > > of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a CSS
>> > > rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent.
>> > >
>> > > Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri skin, as
>> > > Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start modifying
>> > > all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new translations
>> > > (or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do that. We
>> > > don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches.
>> > >
>> > > Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a couple of
>> > > strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise CSS
>> > > itself is useless.
>> > >
>> > > +1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels, button
>> > > labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still need to
>> > > come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and what CSS
>> > > classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will still
>> > > be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can not
>> > > catch with CSS.
>> > >
>> > > Thanks,
>> > > Eduard
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
>> > > [hidden email]> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the
>> > skin
>> > > > and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your
>> > solution we
>> > > > would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new
>> > format.
>> > > > Is a lengthy process.
>> > > >
>> > > > If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one
>> > language,
>> > > > thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally.
>> > > > The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel,
>> > all
>> > > > the other languages will look 'less professional'.
>> > > >
>> > > > Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.
>> > > >
>> > > > Thanks,
>> > > > Caty
>> > > >
>> > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [hidden email]
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > Hi Caty,
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (
>> > [hidden email]
>> > > > > (mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the
>> > > > > > Translations?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't
>> > like it,
>> > > > > can
>> > > > > > create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also
>> > note
>> > > > > that
>> > > > > > certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems
>> > > > capitalizing
>> > > > > > all the words.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > In your example:
>> > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
>> > > > > > this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or
>> > > > none,
>> > > > > > we cannot skip one.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I’d be -1 for CSS since:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > * extra CPU work not required
>> > > > > * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default"
>> > > > > * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to
>> > change!
>> > > > > If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations
>> > > > (similar
>> > > > > use case than if they wish to change some wording)
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not
>> > proposing
>> > > > > anything for other languages (each language has its own rules
>> > regarding
>> > > > > Capitalization).
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Thanks
>> > > > > -Vincent
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > Thanks,
>> > > > > > Caty
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Hello,
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Here's my +1.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Thanks,
>> > > > > > > Manuel
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [hidden email]
>> > > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Hi devs,
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels (
>> > > > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a
>> > good
>> > > > > idea
>> > > > > > > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN:
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for
>> > > > > Capitalization
>> > > > > > > > and to document that in our dev best practices on
>> > dev.xwiki.org.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Example of labels:
>> > > > > > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment”
>> > > > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > WDYT?
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Thanks
>> > > > > > > > -Vincent
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
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Re: [Proposal] Capitalization rules

Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
In reply to this post by vmassol
* I don't agree with the rules defined at
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
and I certainly wouldn't want to have that link in our documentation.
* I don't agree that we want to vote a standard just for a SPECIFIC
language. I would prefer to find some rules that apply to all the
languages.

This being said:
* Each sentence should start with the first letter of the word in uppercase
(Sentence cap). This means that LiveTable actions like 'delete', etc. needs
to be fixed.
* The rule about first and last doesn't sound very well to me (Title cap),
and anyway it means we would need to do it manually, so it's a case by case
scenario. What I would do instead is: instead of capitalizing random words
in headings, I would capitalize just entity names (Wiki, Space, Page,
Comment, etc.), examples:
- 'Add Page' - add is the first word in the sentence it's uppercase; page
is an entity is capitalized
but even this 'rule' can be misleading and confusing.

So actually here we are not discussing Capitalization, but 'Title cap'
rule, since Capitalization is definitely a no.
I would prefer a 'Sentence cap' rule with some exceptions for entities as
described above.

Thanks,
Caty



On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 1:08 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
> On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:55:52, Eduard Moraru ([hidden email](mailto:
> [hidden email])) wrote:
>
> > The whole side-discussion started because we can not agree to those rules
> > before we agree how we do it: manually or automatically. If we agree on
> > automatically, then we can not, implicitly, agree on those rules.
>
> The fact that it’s automatic or manual doesn’t change a single thing about
> the rule.
>
> This is about the English language and how it’s applied to web pages,
> nothing to do with XWiki specifically. Do we want to follow the English
> language best practices, yes or no? I was expecting it to be a no brainer
> and everyone saying yes of course.
>
> I’m asking a last time: do you agree about following the Capitalization
> rules defined at
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx
> for the English language and make that our rule and publish it?
>
> I personally agree about it.
>
> Once we agree about it then:
> - We will publish it at dev.xwiki.org and on l10n.xwiki.org too
> - When translators write translations in English they’ll need to follow it
> (if they don’t it’ll be called a bug that will need to be fixed)
> - We can optionally (if possible, ATM it’s not) decide to automatically
> implement it using CSS
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> > Thanks,
> > Eduard
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:52 PM, [hidden email]
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Let’s backtrack!
> > >
> > > The question I asked was NOT how do it!
> > >
> > > I asked: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined
> at
> > >
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx
> and
> > > make that our own rule ad publish it.
> > >
> > > Please try to answer that question.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > -Vincent
> > >
> > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru ([hidden email]
> (mailto:
> > > [hidden email])) wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the translation's
> > > > concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to have
> a
> > > lot
> > > > of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a
> CSS
> > > > rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent.
> > > >
> > > > Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri
> skin, as
> > > > Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start
> modifying
> > > > all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new
> translations
> > > > (or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do
> that. We
> > > > don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches.
> > > >
> > > > Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a couple
> of
> > > > strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise
> CSS
> > > > itself is useless.
> > > >
> > > > +1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels,
> button
> > > > labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still need
> to
> > > > come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and
> what CSS
> > > > classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will
> still
> > > > be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can
> not
> > > > catch with CSS.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Eduard
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> > > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the
> > > skin
> > > > > and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your
> > > solution we
> > > > > would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new
> > > format.
> > > > > Is a lengthy process.
> > > > >
> > > > > If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one
> > > language,
> > > > > thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally.
> > > > > The problem with changing just English is that according to
> Emanuel,
> > > all
> > > > > the other languages will look 'less professional'.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Caty
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [hidden email]
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Caty,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > (mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing
> the
> > > > > > > Translations?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't
> > > like it,
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc.
> Also
> > > note
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems
> > > > > capitalizing
> > > > > > > all the words.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In your example:
> > > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > > > > > > this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the
> words or
> > > > > none,
> > > > > > > we cannot skip one.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I’d be -1 for CSS since:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * extra CPU work not required
> > > > > > * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default"
> > > > > > * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to
> > > change!
> > > > > > If they really want they’ll just need to override the
> translations
> > > > > (similar
> > > > > > use case than if they wish to change some wording)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not
> > > proposing
> > > > > > anything for other languages (each language has its own rules
> > > regarding
> > > > > > Capitalization).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > -Vincent
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > Caty
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Here's my +1.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional
> :)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > Manuel
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi devs,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels (
> > > > > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think
> it’s a
> > > good
> > > > > > idea
> > > > > > > > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for
> > > > > > Capitalization
> > > > > > > > > and to document that in our dev best practices on
> > > dev.xwiki.org.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Example of labels:
> > > > > > > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment”
> > > > > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > WDYT?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > > -Vincent
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: [Proposal] Capitalization rules

Eduard Moraru
In reply to this post by Marius Dumitru Florea
+1 for the rules.

Watch out for falling bugs ahead! :)

Thanks,
Eduard

On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 1:08 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:55:52, Eduard Moraru ([hidden email](mailto:
> [hidden email])) wrote:
> >
> >> The whole side-discussion started because we can not agree to those
> rules
> >> before we agree how we do it: manually or automatically. If we agree on
> >> automatically, then we can not, implicitly, agree on those rules.
> >
> > The fact that it’s automatic or manual doesn’t change a single thing
> about the rule.
> >
> > This is about the English language and how it’s applied to web pages,
> nothing to do with XWiki specifically. Do we want to follow the English
> language best practices, yes or no? I was expecting it to be a no brainer
> and everyone saying yes of course.
> >
>
> > I’m asking a last time: do you agree about following the Capitalization
> rules defined at
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx
> for the English language and make that our rule and publish it?
>
> +1, those rules look good to me.
>
> >
> > I personally agree about it.
> >
> > Once we agree about it then:
> > - We will publish it at dev.xwiki.org and on l10n.xwiki.org too
> > - When translators write translations in English they’ll need to follow
> it (if they don’t it’ll be called a bug that will need to be fixed)
>
> > - We can optionally (if possible, ATM it’s not) decide to automatically
> implement it using CSS
>
> I don't think we can automate this with CSS.
>
> Thanks,
> Marius
>
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> >
> >> Thanks,
> >> Eduard
> >>
> >> On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:52 PM, [hidden email]
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Let’s backtrack!
> >> >
> >> > The question I asked was NOT how do it!
> >> >
> >> > I asked: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined
> at
> >> >
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx
> and
> >> > make that our own rule ad publish it.
> >> >
> >> > Please try to answer that question.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks
> >> > -Vincent
> >> >
> >> > On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru ([hidden email]
> (mailto:
> >> > [hidden email])) wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Hi,
> >> > >
> >> > > Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the
> translation's
> >> > > concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to
> have a
> >> > lot
> >> > > of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a
> CSS
> >> > > rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent.
> >> > >
> >> > > Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri
> skin, as
> >> > > Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start
> modifying
> >> > > all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new
> translations
> >> > > (or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do
> that. We
> >> > > don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches.
> >> > >
> >> > > Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a
> couple of
> >> > > strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise
> CSS
> >> > > itself is useless.
> >> > >
> >> > > +1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels,
> button
> >> > > labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still
> need to
> >> > > come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and
> what CSS
> >> > > classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will
> still
> >> > > be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can
> not
> >> > > catch with CSS.
> >> > >
> >> > > Thanks,
> >> > > Eduard
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> >> > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in
> the
> >> > skin
> >> > > > and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your
> >> > solution we
> >> > > > would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the
> new
> >> > format.
> >> > > > Is a lengthy process.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one
> >> > language,
> >> > > > thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally.
> >> > > > The problem with changing just English is that according to
> Emanuel,
> >> > all
> >> > > > the other languages will look 'less professional'.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thanks,
> >> > > > Caty
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [hidden email]
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > Hi Caty,
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (
> >> > [hidden email]
> >> > > > > (mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing
> the
> >> > > > > > Translations?
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't
> >> > like it,
> >> > > > > can
> >> > > > > > create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc.
> Also
> >> > note
> >> > > > > that
> >> > > > > > certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems
> >> > > > capitalizing
> >> > > > > > all the words.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > In your example:
> >> > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> >> > > > > > this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the
> words or
> >> > > > none,
> >> > > > > > we cannot skip one.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I’d be -1 for CSS since:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > * extra CPU work not required
> >> > > > > * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default"
> >> > > > > * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to
> >> > change!
> >> > > > > If they really want they’ll just need to override the
> translations
> >> > > > (similar
> >> > > > > use case than if they wish to change some wording)
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not
> >> > proposing
> >> > > > > anything for other languages (each language has its own rules
> >> > regarding
> >> > > > > Capitalization).
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Thanks
> >> > > > > -Vincent
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > Thanks,
> >> > > > > > Caty
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Hello,
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Here's my +1.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional
> :)
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Thanks,
> >> > > > > > > Manuel
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [hidden email]
> >> > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Hi devs,
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels (
> >> > > > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think
> it’s a
> >> > good
> >> > > > > idea
> >> > > > > > > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN:
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> >
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for
> >> > > > > Capitalization
> >> > > > > > > > and to document that in our dev best practices on
> >> > dev.xwiki.org.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Example of labels:
> >> > > > > > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment”
> >> > > > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > WDYT?
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Thanks
> >> > > > > > > > -Vincent
> > _______________________________________________
> > devs mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: [Proposal] Capitalization rules

Thomas Mortagne
Administrator
In reply to this post by vmassol
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:08 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
> On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:55:52, Eduard Moraru ([hidden email](mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
>
>> The whole side-discussion started because we can not agree to those rules
>> before we agree how we do it: manually or automatically. If we agree on
>> automatically, then we can not, implicitly, agree on those rules.
>
> The fact that it’s automatic or manual doesn’t change a single thing about the rule.
>
> This is about the English language and how it’s applied to web pages, nothing to do with XWiki specifically. Do we want to follow the English language best practices, yes or no? I was expecting it to be a no brainer and everyone saying yes of course.
>
> I’m asking a last time: do you agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx for the English language and make that our rule and publish it?
>
> I personally agree about it.
>
> Once we agree about it then:
> - We will publish it at dev.xwiki.org and on l10n.xwiki.org too
> - When translators write translations in English they’ll need to follow it (if they don’t it’ll be called a bug that will need to be fixed)
> - We can optionally (if possible, ATM it’s not) decide to automatically implement it using CSS

Note that there is usually not english work going on in
http://l10n.xwiki.org. In our case all that goes directly to git.

>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>> Thanks,
>> Eduard
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:52 PM, [hidden email]
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Let’s backtrack!
>> >
>> > The question I asked was NOT how do it!
>> >
>> > I asked: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at
>> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx and
>> > make that our own rule ad publish it.
>> >
>> > Please try to answer that question.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> > -Vincent
>> >
>> > On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru ([hidden email](mailto:
>> > [hidden email])) wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hi,
>> > >
>> > > Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the translation's
>> > > concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to have a
>> > lot
>> > > of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a CSS
>> > > rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent.
>> > >
>> > > Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri skin, as
>> > > Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start modifying
>> > > all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new translations
>> > > (or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do that. We
>> > > don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches.
>> > >
>> > > Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a couple of
>> > > strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise CSS
>> > > itself is useless.
>> > >
>> > > +1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels, button
>> > > labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still need to
>> > > come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and what CSS
>> > > classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will still
>> > > be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can not
>> > > catch with CSS.
>> > >
>> > > Thanks,
>> > > Eduard
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
>> > > [hidden email]> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the
>> > skin
>> > > > and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your
>> > solution we
>> > > > would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new
>> > format.
>> > > > Is a lengthy process.
>> > > >
>> > > > If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one
>> > language,
>> > > > thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally.
>> > > > The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel,
>> > all
>> > > > the other languages will look 'less professional'.
>> > > >
>> > > > Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.
>> > > >
>> > > > Thanks,
>> > > > Caty
>> > > >
>> > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [hidden email]
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > Hi Caty,
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (
>> > [hidden email]
>> > > > > (mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the
>> > > > > > Translations?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't
>> > like it,
>> > > > > can
>> > > > > > create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also
>> > note
>> > > > > that
>> > > > > > certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems
>> > > > capitalizing
>> > > > > > all the words.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > In your example:
>> > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
>> > > > > > this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or
>> > > > none,
>> > > > > > we cannot skip one.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I’d be -1 for CSS since:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > * extra CPU work not required
>> > > > > * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default"
>> > > > > * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to
>> > change!
>> > > > > If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations
>> > > > (similar
>> > > > > use case than if they wish to change some wording)
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not
>> > proposing
>> > > > > anything for other languages (each language has its own rules
>> > regarding
>> > > > > Capitalization).
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Thanks
>> > > > > -Vincent
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > Thanks,
>> > > > > > Caty
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Hello,
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Here's my +1.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Thanks,
>> > > > > > > Manuel
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [hidden email]
>> > > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Hi devs,
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels (
>> > > > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a
>> > good
>> > > > > idea
>> > > > > > > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN:
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for
>> > > > > Capitalization
>> > > > > > > > and to document that in our dev best practices on
>> > dev.xwiki.org.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Example of labels:
>> > > > > > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment”
>> > > > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > WDYT?
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Thanks
>> > > > > > > > -Vincent
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs



--
Thomas Mortagne
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Re: [Proposal] Capitalization rules

Valdis Vītoliņš
In reply to this post by Eduard Moraru

> Hi Valdis,
>
> On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Valdis Vītoliņš
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>         > Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when
>         writing the
>         > Translations?
>        
>         Definitely not. E.g. for Latvian capital letter (if other
>         letters are
>         lowercase, of course) is used only at the beginning of
>         sentence and for
>         proper nouns (names).
>
>
> We are talking about titles and labels here, not about sentences that
> require language-specific rules.
>
>
> Does you previous comment also apply to titles and labels in Latvian?
>
>
> Examples:
>
> "Document Name"
>
> "Space Name"
>
> "Page Title"
>
> etc...
>
> Thanks,
> Eduard
>

Yes, in difference with English, in Latvian the same rules apply also
for titles. E.g. look at news portal: http://www.ir.lv/

Valdis


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Re: [Proposal] Capitalization rules

Eduard Moraru
In reply to this post by Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 1:26 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> * I don't agree with the rules defined at
>
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
> and I certainly wouldn't want to have that link in our documentation.
> * I don't agree that we want to vote a standard just for a SPECIFIC
> language. I would prefer to find some rules that apply to all the
> languages.
>
> This being said:
> * Each sentence should start with the first letter of the word in uppercase
> (Sentence cap). This means that LiveTable actions like 'delete', etc. needs
> to be fixed.
> * The rule about first and last doesn't sound very well to me (Title cap),
> and anyway it means we would need to do it manually, so it's a case by case
> scenario. What I would do instead is: instead of capitalizing random words
> in headings, I would capitalize just entity names (Wiki, Space, Page,
> Comment, etc.), examples:
> - 'Add Page' - add is the first word in the sentence it's uppercase; page
> is an entity is capitalized
> but even this 'rule' can be misleading and confusing.
>
> So actually here we are not discussing Capitalization, but 'Title cap'
> rule, since Capitalization is definitely a no.
> I would prefer a 'Sentence cap' rule with some exceptions for entities as
> described above.
>
>
Note that I also agree that Sentence Case is the safest and (AFAIK)
cross-language rule we could enforce.

On a technical note, it is also probably the only rule we *can* do
automatically, with CSS:

p:first-child {
   text-transform:uppercase;
}

So, if it is an option, I would rather we do that instead of (or at least
additionally to) the proposed Microsoft (manual) guidelines.

Thanks,
Eduard

Thanks,

> Caty
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 1:08 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:55:52, Eduard Moraru ([hidden email](mailto:
> > [hidden email])) wrote:
> >
> > > The whole side-discussion started because we can not agree to those
> rules
> > > before we agree how we do it: manually or automatically. If we agree on
> > > automatically, then we can not, implicitly, agree on those rules.
> >
> > The fact that it’s automatic or manual doesn’t change a single thing
> about
> > the rule.
> >
> > This is about the English language and how it’s applied to web pages,
> > nothing to do with XWiki specifically. Do we want to follow the English
> > language best practices, yes or no? I was expecting it to be a no brainer
> > and everyone saying yes of course.
> >
> > I’m asking a last time: do you agree about following the Capitalization
> > rules defined at
> >
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx
> > for the English language and make that our rule and publish it?
> >
> > I personally agree about it.
> >
> > Once we agree about it then:
> > - We will publish it at dev.xwiki.org and on l10n.xwiki.org too
> > - When translators write translations in English they’ll need to follow
> it
> > (if they don’t it’ll be called a bug that will need to be fixed)
> > - We can optionally (if possible, ATM it’s not) decide to automatically
> > implement it using CSS
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Eduard
> > >
> > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:52 PM, [hidden email]
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Let’s backtrack!
> > > >
> > > > The question I asked was NOT how do it!
> > > >
> > > > I asked: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined
> > at
> > > >
> >
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx
> > and
> > > > make that our own rule ad publish it.
> > > >
> > > > Please try to answer that question.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > -Vincent
> > > >
> > > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru ([hidden email]
> > (mailto:
> > > > [hidden email])) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the
> translation's
> > > > > concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to
> have
> > a
> > > > lot
> > > > > of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a
> > CSS
> > > > > rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent.
> > > > >
> > > > > Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri
> > skin, as
> > > > > Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start
> > modifying
> > > > > all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new
> > translations
> > > > > (or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do
> > that. We
> > > > > don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a
> couple
> > of
> > > > > strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise
> > CSS
> > > > > itself is useless.
> > > > >
> > > > > +1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels,
> > button
> > > > > labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still
> need
> > to
> > > > > come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and
> > what CSS
> > > > > classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will
> > still
> > > > > be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can
> > not
> > > > > catch with CSS.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Eduard
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> > > > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in
> the
> > > > skin
> > > > > > and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your
> > > > solution we
> > > > > > would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the
> new
> > > > format.
> > > > > > Is a lengthy process.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one
> > > > language,
> > > > > > thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally.
> > > > > > The problem with changing just English is that according to
> > Emanuel,
> > > > all
> > > > > > the other languages will look 'less professional'.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were
> uppercase.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Caty
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [hidden email]
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Caty,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > (mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing
> > the
> > > > > > > > Translations?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone
> doesn't
> > > > like it,
> > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc.
> > Also
> > > > note
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems
> > > > > > capitalizing
> > > > > > > > all the words.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In your example:
> > > > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > > > > > > > this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the
> > words or
> > > > > > none,
> > > > > > > > we cannot skip one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I’d be -1 for CSS since:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > * extra CPU work not required
> > > > > > > * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default"
> > > > > > > * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed
> to
> > > > change!
> > > > > > > If they really want they’ll just need to override the
> > translations
> > > > > > (similar
> > > > > > > use case than if they wish to change some wording)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not
> > > > proposing
> > > > > > > anything for other languages (each language has its own rules
> > > > regarding
> > > > > > > Capitalization).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > -Vincent
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > Caty
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Here's my +1.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional
> > :)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > Manuel
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hi devs,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels
> (
> > > > > > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think
> > it’s a
> > > > good
> > > > > > > idea
> > > > > > > > > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).aspx
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule
> for
> > > > > > > Capitalization
> > > > > > > > > > and to document that in our dev best practices on
> > > > dev.xwiki.org.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Example of labels:
> > > > > > > > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment”
> > > > > > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > WDYT?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > > > -Vincent
> > _______________________________________________
> > devs mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >
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