[Proposal] Change of title behavior proposal

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[Proposal] Change of title behavior proposal

vmassol
Administrator
Hi everyone,

With Colibri we've started to display the doc title as the document's  
rendered title. This is a big change that not only affects Colibri but  
in general the way people write documents.

Here's what I suggest:

1) Display doc titles with <div>
2) Display document content headers using <h1>-<h6>
3) Display doc titles with a larger font size than h1 (or h1 with a  
smaller font size)
4) Force cursor to be in the title field when editing a new document.  
Force cursor in the content field when editing an existing document.  
This is to make it easy using the keyboard only to enter doc titles  
(since it's currently dead easy, we need something close in easiness)
5) Modify all our existing skins: Toucan, Albatross, Finch and Dodo so  
that they use they display the doc title, similarly to Colibri
6) Have a title compatibility flag in xwiki.cfg. When active, use a  
Javascript to do this: if there's no title specified for a page and if  
the first content is a H1 then use it as the page's title.

We need at least 1), 3), 6) to be able to release the Colibri skin for  
2.0 final IMO.

WDYT?

Thanks
-Vincent

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Re: [Proposal] Change of title behavior proposal

Thomas Mortagne
Administrator
On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 14:48, Vincent Massol<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> With Colibri we've started to display the doc title as the document's
> rendered title. This is a big change that not only affects Colibri but
> in general the way people write documents.
>
> Here's what I suggest:
>
> 1) Display doc titles with <div>
> 2) Display document content headers using <h1>-<h6>
> 3) Display doc titles with a larger font size than h1 (or h1 with a
> smaller font size)

+1 for all (i'm not sure for div since i'm not an html expert but the
important point is that the page title and first level headers should
have different style for sure)

> 4) Force cursor to be in the title field when editing a new document.
> Force cursor in the content field when editing an existing document.
> This is to make it easy using the keyboard only to enter doc titles
> (since it's currently dead easy, we need something close in easiness)
> 5) Modify all our existing skins: Toucan, Albatross, Finch and Dodo so
> that they use they display the doc title, similarly to Colibri

+1, as you says it's a totally new way of seeing document content so
it should be applied to all skins.

> 6) Have a title compatibility flag in xwiki.cfg. When active, use a
> Javascript to do this: if there's no title specified for a page and if
> the first content is a H1 then use it as the page's title.

Is the h1 hidden in this case ?

7) make the toc macro start at first header level instead of second

>
> We need at least 1), 3), 6) to be able to release the Colibri skin for
> 2.0 final IMO.
>
> WDYT?
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>



--
Thomas Mortagne
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Re: [Proposal] Change of title behavior proposal

Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
In reply to this post by vmassol
> 1) Display doc titles with <div>
>

isn't H1 more semantically correct?


> 2) Display document content headers using <h1>-<h6>
> 3) Display doc titles with a larger font size than h1 (or h1 with a
> smaller font size)
>

This is not necessary. H1 means the first title in a document. The name of
the document could be represented with H1.
If me as a user, I want to have multiple H1 (with same importance as the
title), I should be able to do that.
The difference between the title and another H1 is the position in the
document (the title is always the first).

Representing the title as a H1 solves the 6) problem. Can you explain a user
why the first title is bigger on some pages, while on other pages(no title
specified), the title has the same size like other H1?


> 4) Force cursor to be in the title field when editing a new document.
> Force cursor in the content field when editing an existing document.
> This is to make it easy using the keyboard only to enter doc titles
> (since it's currently dead easy, we need something close in easiness)
>

+1

> 5) Modify all our existing skins: Toucan, Albatross, Finch and Dodo so
> that they use they display the doc title, similarly to Colibri
>

+1

> 6) Have a title compatibility flag in xwiki.cfg. When active, use a
> Javascript to do this: if there's no title specified for a page and if
> the first content is a H1 then use it as the page's title.
>

+1

>
> We need at least 1), 3), 6) to be able to release the Colibri skin for
> 2.0 final IMO.
>
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Re: [Proposal] Change of title behavior proposal

vmassol
Administrator
Hi,

On Sep 8, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:

>> 1) Display doc titles with <div>
>>
>
> isn't H1 more semantically correct?

Maybe yes. It just looked strange to me to have 2 H1 but I'm ok with  
whatever our HTML experts say :)

>> 2) Display document content headers using <h1>-<h6>
>> 3) Display doc titles with a larger font size than h1 (or h1 with a
>> smaller font size)
>>
>
> This is not necessary. H1 means the first title in a document. The  
> name of
> the document could be represented with H1.
> If me as a user, I want to have multiple H1 (with same importance as  
> the
> title), I should be able to do that.
> The difference between the title and another H1 is the position in the
> document (the title is always the first).
>
> Representing the title as a H1 solves the 6) problem. Can you  
> explain a user
> why the first title is bigger on some pages, while on other pages(no  
> title
> specified), the title has the same size like other H1?

= header = generates a H1.

Thanks
-Vincent

>> 4) Force cursor to be in the title field when editing a new document.
>> Force cursor in the content field when editing an existing document.
>> This is to make it easy using the keyboard only to enter doc titles
>> (since it's currently dead easy, we need something close in easiness)
>>
>
> +1
>
>> 5) Modify all our existing skins: Toucan, Albatross, Finch and Dodo  
>> so
>> that they use they display the doc title, similarly to Colibri
>>
>
> +1
>
>> 6) Have a title compatibility flag in xwiki.cfg. When active, use a
>> Javascript to do this: if there's no title specified for a page and  
>> if
>> the first content is a H1 then use it as the page's title.
>>
>
> +1
>
>>
>> We need at least 1), 3), 6) to be able to release the Colibri skin  
>> for
>> 2.0 final IMO.

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Re: [Proposal] Change of title behavior proposal

vmassol
Administrator

On Sep 8, 2009, at 3:27 PM, Vincent Massol wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Sep 8, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
>
>>> 1) Display doc titles with <div>
>>>
>>
>> isn't H1 more semantically correct?
>
> Maybe yes. It just looked strange to me to have 2 H1 but I'm ok with  
> whatever our HTML experts say :)
>
>>> 2) Display document content headers using <h1>-<h6>
>>> 3) Display doc titles with a larger font size than h1 (or h1 with a
>>> smaller font size)
>>>
>>
>> This is not necessary. H1 means the first title in a document. The  
>> name of
>> the document could be represented with H1.
>> If me as a user, I want to have multiple H1 (with same importance  
>> as the
>> title), I should be able to do that.
>> The difference between the title and another H1 is the position in  
>> the
>> document (the title is always the first).
>>
>> Representing the title as a H1 solves the 6) problem. Can you  
>> explain a user
>> why the first title is bigger on some pages, while on other  
>> pages(no title
>> specified), the title has the same size like other H1?
>
> = header = generates a H1.

The other option is to modify the renderers and the XHTML renderer in  
particular so that = header= generate a H2 instead but this means:
- all skins must be modified as mentioned in 5)
- the wikimodel xwiki parser needs to be modified so that only up to 5  
"=" symbols are supported since there's not H7
- verify other JS are not broken (like the JS for section edits for ex)

-Vincent

> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>>> 4) Force cursor to be in the title field when editing a new  
>>> document.
>>> Force cursor in the content field when editing an existing document.
>>> This is to make it easy using the keyboard only to enter doc titles
>>> (since it's currently dead easy, we need something close in  
>>> easiness)
>>>
>>
>> +1
>>
>>> 5) Modify all our existing skins: Toucan, Albatross, Finch and  
>>> Dodo so
>>> that they use they display the doc title, similarly to Colibri
>>>
>>
>> +1
>>
>>> 6) Have a title compatibility flag in xwiki.cfg. When active, use a
>>> Javascript to do this: if there's no title specified for a page  
>>> and if
>>> the first content is a H1 then use it as the page's title.
>>>
>>
>> +1
>>
>>>
>>> We need at least 1), 3), 6) to be able to release the Colibri skin  
>>> for
>>> 2.0 final IMO.
>

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Re: [Proposal] Change of title behavior proposal

vmassol
Administrator

On Sep 8, 2009, at 3:50 PM, Vincent Massol wrote:

>
> On Sep 8, 2009, at 3:27 PM, Vincent Massol wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Sep 8, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
>>
>>>> 1) Display doc titles with <div>
>>>>
>>>
>>> isn't H1 more semantically correct?
>>
>> Maybe yes. It just looked strange to me to have 2 H1 but I'm ok  
>> with whatever our HTML experts say :)
>>
>>>> 2) Display document content headers using <h1>-<h6>
>>>> 3) Display doc titles with a larger font size than h1 (or h1 with a
>>>> smaller font size)
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is not necessary. H1 means the first title in a document. The  
>>> name of
>>> the document could be represented with H1.
>>> If me as a user, I want to have multiple H1 (with same importance  
>>> as the
>>> title), I should be able to do that.
>>> The difference between the title and another H1 is the position in  
>>> the
>>> document (the title is always the first).
>>>
>>> Representing the title as a H1 solves the 6) problem. Can you  
>>> explain a user
>>> why the first title is bigger on some pages, while on other  
>>> pages(no title
>>> specified), the title has the same size like other H1?
>>
>> = header = generates a H1.
>
> The other option is to modify the renderers and the XHTML renderer  
> in particular so that = header= generate a H2 instead but this means:
> - all skins must be modified as mentioned in 5)
> - the wikimodel xwiki parser needs to be modified so that only up to  
> 5 "=" symbols are supported since there's not H7
> - verify other JS are not broken (like the JS for section edits for  
> ex)

Note that this would also mean that when using the XWiki rendering  
module standalone there's no way to generate a document's title.

<thomas>That's why I was asking the other day whether an onTitle()  
event should be added or not to the Listener interface</thomas>

Thanks
-Vincent

>>>> 4) Force cursor to be in the title field when editing a new  
>>>> document.
>>>> Force cursor in the content field when editing an existing  
>>>> document.
>>>> This is to make it easy using the keyboard only to enter doc titles
>>>> (since it's currently dead easy, we need something close in  
>>>> easiness)
>>>>
>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>>> 5) Modify all our existing skins: Toucan, Albatross, Finch and  
>>>> Dodo so
>>>> that they use they display the doc title, similarly to Colibri
>>>>
>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>>> 6) Have a title compatibility flag in xwiki.cfg. When active, use a
>>>> Javascript to do this: if there's no title specified for a page  
>>>> and if
>>>> the first content is a H1 then use it as the page's title.
>>>>
>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>>>
>>>> We need at least 1), 3), 6) to be able to release the Colibri  
>>>> skin for
>>>> 2.0 final IMO.
>>
>

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Re: [Proposal] Change of title behavior proposal

rrodrigueznt
In reply to this post by Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
Hi!

Ecaterina Valica wrote:

>> 1) Display doc titles with <div>
>>
>>    
>
> isn't H1 more semantically correct?
>
>
>  
>> 2) Display document content headers using <h1>-<h6>
>> 3) Display doc titles with a larger font size than h1 (or h1 with a
>> smaller font size)
>>
>>    
>
> This is not necessary. H1 means the first title in a document. The name of
> the document could be represented with H1.
> If me as a user, I want to have multiple H1 (with same importance as the
> title), I should be able to do that.
> The difference between the title and another H1 is the position in the
> document (the title is always the first).
>  

May I disagree with this? I think that a given document has to have a
unique title. Another question is to decide if H1 could be used or not
to mark it. To my understanding, heading1 mark will be used for one or
several paragraphs used to head the first level of the hierarchical
structure of a document under its title.

I think we are messing here two different things: the html marking and
the description of the document structure. I agree with Vicent when he
says that a different HTML mark, no hx, must be used to render the
document title.

Thanks!

--
Ricardo Rodríguez
Your EPEC Network ICT Team

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Re: [Proposal] Change of title behavior proposal

lucaa
In reply to this post by vmassol
Vincent Massol wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Sep 8, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
>
>>> 1) Display doc titles with <div>
>>>
>> isn't H1 more semantically correct?
>
> Maybe yes. It just looked strange to me to have 2 H1 but I'm ok with  
> whatever our HTML experts say :)

Well, it is a little strange, because the title's H1 is "above" the first H1 in
the document (since all = headings = generate H1s).
However, a div is not semantic at all, better 2 H1s than a div.

>
>>> 2) Display document content headers using <h1>-<h6>
>>> 3) Display doc titles with a larger font size than h1 (or h1 with a
>>> smaller font size)
>>>
>> This is not necessary. H1 means the first title in a document. The  
>> name of
>> the document could be represented with H1.
>> If me as a user, I want to have multiple H1 (with same importance as  
>> the
>> title), I should be able to do that.

How about if I want to have none? why can't I have none? (I will automatically
get a title generated from the document's name).
Also, as I said, I think semantically the document title is more important than
all the other level 1 headings in it (a book's title is more important than any
of its chapters titles).

>> The difference between the title and another H1 is the position in the
>> document (the title is always the first).

In this case, then why does the title have its own special input and so on? we
could just rely on an existing first heading level 1, in the content, or use the
document's name if none is set.

>>
>> Representing the title as a H1 solves the 6) problem. Can you  
>> explain a user
>> why the first title is bigger on some pages, while on other pages(no  
>> title
>> specified), the title has the same size like other H1?

good point.

>
> = header = generates a H1.

?

>
> Thanks
> -Vincent

All in all, I find this one a very tricky one (from a semantic pov).

To fix it, we'd need to agree on the semantic of a document title (maybe I
missed some mails or chat discussions):

We know we want it in the breadcrumbs, browser window title, and now we also
want it represented (somehow) in the content. Does any document need a title
(unique toplevel name)? With these semantics, we should also define the
substitution rules: is a user inserted =heading 1= equivalent to a user inserted
title? or it's just the document name that can replace it?

how about:
6) no heading in the document replaces a document title, but upon save, a
document title, if missing, is generated from separating the page name camel
case in words.

just my first thoughts.

Happy hacking,
Anca

>
>>> 4) Force cursor to be in the title field when editing a new document.
>>> Force cursor in the content field when editing an existing document.
>>> This is to make it easy using the keyboard only to enter doc titles
>>> (since it's currently dead easy, we need something close in easiness)
>>>
>> +1
>>
>>> 5) Modify all our existing skins: Toucan, Albatross, Finch and Dodo  
>>> so
>>> that they use they display the doc title, similarly to Colibri
>>>
>> +1
>>
>>> 6) Have a title compatibility flag in xwiki.cfg. When active, use a
>>> Javascript to do this: if there's no title specified for a page and  
>>> if
>>> the first content is a H1 then use it as the page's title.
>>>
>> +1
>>
>>> We need at least 1), 3), 6) to be able to release the Colibri skin  
>>> for
>>> 2.0 final IMO.
>
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
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Re: [Proposal] Change of title behavior proposal

lucaa
In reply to this post by rrodrigueznt


[Ricardo Rodriguez] Your EPEC Network ICT Team wrote:

> Hi!
>
> Ecaterina Valica wrote:
>>> 1) Display doc titles with <div>
>>>
>>>    
>> isn't H1 more semantically correct?
>>
>>
>>  
>>> 2) Display document content headers using <h1>-<h6>
>>> 3) Display doc titles with a larger font size than h1 (or h1 with a
>>> smaller font size)
>>>
>>>    
>> This is not necessary. H1 means the first title in a document. The name of
>> the document could be represented with H1.
>> If me as a user, I want to have multiple H1 (with same importance as the
>> title), I should be able to do that.
>> The difference between the title and another H1 is the position in the
>> document (the title is always the first).
>>  
>
> May I disagree with this? I think that a given document has to have a
> unique title. Another question is to decide if H1 could be used or not
> to mark it. To my understanding, heading1 mark will be used for one or
> several paragraphs used to head the first level of the hierarchical
> structure of a document under its title.

if "hierarchical structure under its title" semantic exists, then it means that
the title _has_ to be a hx (1, since it's toplevel), to have this semantic
correctly marked in html (a div won't do it, _at all_).

Thanks,
Anca

>
> I think we are messing here two different things: the html marking and
> the description of the document structure. I agree with Vicent when he
> says that a different HTML mark, no hx, must be used to render the
> document title.
>
> Thanks!
>
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Re: [Proposal] Change of title behavior proposal

Marius Dumitru Florea
In reply to this post by Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
Ecaterina Valica wrote:

>> 1) Display doc titles with <div>
>>
>
> isn't H1 more semantically correct?
>
>
>> 2) Display document content headers using <h1>-<h6>
>> 3) Display doc titles with a larger font size than h1 (or h1 with a
>> smaller font size)
>>
>
> This is not necessary. H1 means the first title in a document. The name of
> the document could be represented with H1.
> If me as a user, I want to have multiple H1 (with same importance as the
> title), I should be able to do that.

> The difference between the title and another H1 is the position in the
> document (the title is always the first).

For me the title of a document is semantically "above" all headings
(including H1) found in the content so I think that it should be
displayed in a different way. I'm fine with using H1 for the title, but
with a different style.

IMO a content H1 can play the role of the document title only if:
* the title field is empty
* the H1 heading starts the document
* the document has only one H1 heading in the content

Using the H1 as document title can be confusing because of the section
editing icon which sometimes is around the title and sometimes it isn't.

Thanks,
Marius

>
> Representing the title as a H1 solves the 6) problem. Can you explain a user
> why the first title is bigger on some pages, while on other pages(no title
> specified), the title has the same size like other H1?
>
>
>> 4) Force cursor to be in the title field when editing a new document.
>> Force cursor in the content field when editing an existing document.
>> This is to make it easy using the keyboard only to enter doc titles
>> (since it's currently dead easy, we need something close in easiness)
>>
>
> +1
>
>> 5) Modify all our existing skins: Toucan, Albatross, Finch and Dodo so
>> that they use they display the doc title, similarly to Colibri
>>
>
> +1
>
>> 6) Have a title compatibility flag in xwiki.cfg. When active, use a
>> Javascript to do this: if there's no title specified for a page and if
>> the first content is a H1 then use it as the page's title.
>>
>
> +1
>
>> We need at least 1), 3), 6) to be able to release the Colibri skin for
>> 2.0 final IMO.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
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Re: [Proposal] Change of title behavior proposal

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)

On Sep 8, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:

>> 1) Display doc titles with <div>
>>
>
> isn't H1 more semantically correct?
>
>
>> 2) Display document content headers using <h1>-<h6>
>> 3) Display doc titles with a larger font size than h1 (or h1 with a
>> smaller font size)
>>
>
> This is not necessary. H1 means the first title in a document. The  
> name of
> the document could be represented with H1.
> If me as a user, I want to have multiple H1 (with same importance as  
> the
> title), I should be able to do that.
> The difference between the title and another H1 is the position in the
> document (the title is always the first).
>
> Representing the title as a H1 solves the 6) problem. Can you  
> explain a user
> why the first title is bigger on some pages, while on other pages(no  
> title
> specified), the title has the same size like other H1?

6) is not solved by this. We still need to convert existing document  
content.

-Vincent

>
>
>> 4) Force cursor to be in the title field when editing a new document.
>> Force cursor in the content field when editing an existing document.
>> This is to make it easy using the keyboard only to enter doc titles
>> (since it's currently dead easy, we need something close in easiness)
>>
>
> +1
>
>> 5) Modify all our existing skins: Toucan, Albatross, Finch and Dodo  
>> so
>> that they use they display the doc title, similarly to Colibri
>>
>
> +1
>
>> 6) Have a title compatibility flag in xwiki.cfg. When active, use a
>> Javascript to do this: if there's no title specified for a page and  
>> if
>> the first content is a H1 then use it as the page's title.
>>
>
> +1
>
>>
>> We need at least 1), 3), 6) to be able to release the Colibri skin  
>> for
>> 2.0 final IMO.

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Re: [Proposal] Change of title behavior proposal

Marta Girdea
In reply to this post by vmassol
On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 2:48 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> With Colibri we've started to display the doc title as the document's
> rendered title. This is a big change that not only affects Colibri but
> in general the way people write documents.
>
> Here's what I suggest:
>
> 1) Display doc titles with <div>
> 2) Display document content headers using <h1>-<h6>
> 3) Display doc titles with a larger font size than h1 (or h1 with a
> smaller font size)
> 4) Force cursor to be in the title field when editing a new document.
> Force cursor in the content field when editing an existing document.
> This is to make it easy using the keyboard only to enter doc titles
> (since it's currently dead easy, we need something close in easiness)
> 5) Modify all our existing skins: Toucan, Albatross, Finch and Dodo so
> that they use they display the doc title, similarly to Colibri
> 6) Have a title compatibility flag in xwiki.cfg. When active, use a
> Javascript to do this: if there's no title specified for a page and if
> the first content is a H1 then use it as the page's title.
>

Why javascript? This can be easily done on the server side in velocity, by
looking into the string representing the rendered content.


>
> We need at least 1), 3), 6) to be able to release the Colibri skin for
> 2.0 final IMO.
>
> WDYT?
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Proposal] Change of title behavior proposal

vmassol
Administrator

On Sep 8, 2009, at 5:28 PM, Marta Girdea wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 2:48 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>  
> wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> With Colibri we've started to display the doc title as the document's
>> rendered title. This is a big change that not only affects Colibri  
>> but
>> in general the way people write documents.
>>
>> Here's what I suggest:
>>
>> 1) Display doc titles with <div>
>> 2) Display document content headers using <h1>-<h6>
>> 3) Display doc titles with a larger font size than h1 (or h1 with a
>> smaller font size)
>> 4) Force cursor to be in the title field when editing a new document.
>> Force cursor in the content field when editing an existing document.
>> This is to make it easy using the keyboard only to enter doc titles
>> (since it's currently dead easy, we need something close in easiness)
>> 5) Modify all our existing skins: Toucan, Albatross, Finch and Dodo  
>> so
>> that they use they display the doc title, similarly to Colibri
>> 6) Have a title compatibility flag in xwiki.cfg. When active, use a
>> Javascript to do this: if there's no title specified for a page and  
>> if
>> the first content is a H1 then use it as the page's title.
>>
>
> Why javascript? This can be easily done on the server side in  
> velocity, by
> looking into the string representing the rendered content.

Yes good point.

Thanks
-Vincent

>> We need at least 1), 3), 6) to be able to release the Colibri skin  
>> for
>> 2.0 final IMO.
>>
>> WDYT?
>>
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent
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Re: [Proposal] Change of title behavior proposal

Sergiu Dumitriu
1. The document title is already unique, using the special HTML
element designed for titles: <title>. The problem is that it also
contains context information: the document name, the wiki description

2. Nothing prohibits using several H1 elements, so we should not make
= generate H2. We were doing this a while ago, but we reverted this
behavior.

3. Using a div for the title is much worse than having several H1
elements, one of which is the title. If we want to make it special,
using a plain div only does the exact opposite.

4. Using javascript is bad. JS should NEVER be used for basic
functionality, only for enhancements.

In conclusion, the best approach IMO is the following:
- Leave the title as a H1 as it is now, inside a <div id="document-title">
- Don't change the current heading behavior, i.e. =XYZ= generates a H1
- Serverside, trim the first H1 element from the rendered content,
which is exactly what gets sent to the client (thanks Marta for the
idea)

Question: do we remove the first heading only when it is the same as
the document title (or when the title is empty), or do we always
remove it?
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Re: [Proposal] Change of title behavior proposal

Marius Dumitru Florea
Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:

> 1. The document title is already unique, using the special HTML
> element designed for titles: <title>. The problem is that it also
> contains context information: the document name, the wiki description
>
> 2. Nothing prohibits using several H1 elements, so we should not make
> = generate H2. We were doing this a while ago, but we reverted this
> behavior.
>
> 3. Using a div for the title is much worse than having several H1
> elements, one of which is the title. If we want to make it special,
> using a plain div only does the exact opposite.
>
> 4. Using javascript is bad. JS should NEVER be used for basic
> functionality, only for enhancements.
>
> In conclusion, the best approach IMO is the following:
> - Leave the title as a H1 as it is now, inside a <div id="document-title">
> - Don't change the current heading behavior, i.e. =XYZ= generates a H1

> - Serverside, trim the first H1 element from the rendered content,
> which is exactly what gets sent to the client (thanks Marta for the
> idea)

What's the input for the WYSIWYG editor in this case? I think the user
should be able to edit the first heading.

Marius

>
> Question: do we remove the first heading only when it is the same as
> the document title (or when the title is empty), or do we always
> remove it?
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Re: [Proposal] Change of title behavior proposal

Sergiu Dumitriu
On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 17:56, Marius Dumitru
Florea<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:
>> 1. The document title is already unique, using the special HTML
>> element designed for titles: <title>. The problem is that it also
>> contains context information: the document name, the wiki description
>>
>> 2. Nothing prohibits using several H1 elements, so we should not make
>> = generate H2. We were doing this a while ago, but we reverted this
>> behavior.
>>
>> 3. Using a div for the title is much worse than having several H1
>> elements, one of which is the title. If we want to make it special,
>> using a plain div only does the exact opposite.
>>
>> 4. Using javascript is bad. JS should NEVER be used for basic
>> functionality, only for enhancements.
>>
>> In conclusion, the best approach IMO is the following:
>> - Leave the title as a H1 as it is now, inside a <div id="document-title">
>> - Don't change the current heading behavior, i.e. =XYZ= generates a H1
>
>> - Serverside, trim the first H1 element from the rendered content,
>> which is exactly what gets sent to the client (thanks Marta for the
>> idea)
>
> What's the input for the WYSIWYG editor in this case? I think the user
> should be able to edit the first heading.
>

This is only happening in the default view mode, so it should not
affect the WYSIWYG editor.

>
>>
>> Question: do we remove the first heading only when it is the same as
>> the document title (or when the title is empty), or do we always
>> remove it?
>> _______________________________________________
>> devs mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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>



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Re: [Proposal] Change of title behavior proposal

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by Thomas Mortagne

On Sep 8, 2009, at 3:06 PM, Thomas Mortagne wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 14:48, Vincent Massol<[hidden email]>  
> wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> With Colibri we've started to display the doc title as the document's
>> rendered title. This is a big change that not only affects Colibri  
>> but
>> in general the way people write documents.
>>
>> Here's what I suggest:
>>
>> 1) Display doc titles with <div>
>> 2) Display document content headers using <h1>-<h6>
>> 3) Display doc titles with a larger font size than h1 (or h1 with a
>> smaller font size)
>
> +1 for all (i'm not sure for div since i'm not an html expert but the
> important point is that the page title and first level headers should
> have different style for sure)
>
>> 4) Force cursor to be in the title field when editing a new document.
>> Force cursor in the content field when editing an existing document.
>> This is to make it easy using the keyboard only to enter doc titles
>> (since it's currently dead easy, we need something close in easiness)
>> 5) Modify all our existing skins: Toucan, Albatross, Finch and Dodo  
>> so
>> that they use they display the doc title, similarly to Colibri
>
> +1, as you says it's a totally new way of seeing document content so
> it should be applied to all skins.
>
>> 6) Have a title compatibility flag in xwiki.cfg. When active, use a
>> Javascript to do this: if there's no title specified for a page and  
>> if
>> the first content is a H1 then use it as the page's title.
>
> Is the h1 hidden in this case ?
>
> 7) make the toc macro start at first header level instead of second

Note that we can change the toc to display the first level all the  
time since that will only add the document's title for those in  
backward compat mode.

-Vincent

>> We need at least 1), 3), 6) to be able to release the Colibri skin  
>> for
>> 2.0 final IMO.
>>
>> WDYT?
>>
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent

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Re: [Proposal] Change of title behavior proposal

Thomas Mortagne
Administrator
In reply to this post by Thomas Mortagne
On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 15:06, Thomas Mortagne<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 14:48, Vincent Massol<[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> With Colibri we've started to display the doc title as the document's
>> rendered title. This is a big change that not only affects Colibri but
>> in general the way people write documents.
>>
>> Here's what I suggest:
>>
>> 1) Display doc titles with <div>
>> 2) Display document content headers using <h1>-<h6>
>> 3) Display doc titles with a larger font size than h1 (or h1 with a
>> smaller font size)
>
> +1 for all (i'm not sure for div since i'm not an html expert but the
> important point is that the page title and first level headers should
> have different style for sure)
>
>> 4) Force cursor to be in the title field when editing a new document.
>> Force cursor in the content field when editing an existing document.
>> This is to make it easy using the keyboard only to enter doc titles
>> (since it's currently dead easy, we need something close in easiness)
>> 5) Modify all our existing skins: Toucan, Albatross, Finch and Dodo so
>> that they use they display the doc title, similarly to Colibri
>
> +1, as you says it's a totally new way of seeing document content so
> it should be applied to all skins.
>
>> 6) Have a title compatibility flag in xwiki.cfg. When active, use a
>> Javascript to do this: if there's no title specified for a page and if
>> the first content is a H1 then use it as the page's title.

Also this should be off by default since it's backward compatibility
and a wrong behavior in a normal new wiki.

>
> Is the h1 hidden in this case ?
>
> 7) make the toc macro start at first header level instead of second
>
>>
>> We need at least 1), 3), 6) to be able to release the Colibri skin for
>> 2.0 final IMO.
>>
>> WDYT?
>>
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> devs mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Thomas Mortagne
>



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Re: [Proposal] Change of title behavior proposal

vmassol
Administrator

On Sep 8, 2009, at 7:31 PM, Thomas Mortagne wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 15:06, Thomas Mortagne<[hidden email]
> > wrote:
>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 14:48, Vincent Massol<[hidden email]>  
>> wrote:
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> With Colibri we've started to display the doc title as the  
>>> document's
>>> rendered title. This is a big change that not only affects Colibri  
>>> but
>>> in general the way people write documents.
>>>
>>> Here's what I suggest:
>>>
>>> 1) Display doc titles with <div>
>>> 2) Display document content headers using <h1>-<h6>
>>> 3) Display doc titles with a larger font size than h1 (or h1 with a
>>> smaller font size)
>>
>> +1 for all (i'm not sure for div since i'm not an html expert but the
>> important point is that the page title and first level headers should
>> have different style for sure)
>>
>>> 4) Force cursor to be in the title field when editing a new  
>>> document.
>>> Force cursor in the content field when editing an existing document.
>>> This is to make it easy using the keyboard only to enter doc titles
>>> (since it's currently dead easy, we need something close in  
>>> easiness)
>>> 5) Modify all our existing skins: Toucan, Albatross, Finch and  
>>> Dodo so
>>> that they use they display the doc title, similarly to Colibri
>>
>> +1, as you says it's a totally new way of seeing document content so
>> it should be applied to all skins.
>>
>>> 6) Have a title compatibility flag in xwiki.cfg. When active, use a
>>> Javascript to do this: if there's no title specified for a page  
>>> and if
>>> the first content is a H1 then use it as the page's title.
>
> Also this should be off by default since it's backward compatibility
> and a wrong behavior in a normal new wiki.

There's one remaining problem Thomas with this: the default XAR will  
not display properly. We would need to have 2 XARs for this to work:  
one for backward compat and a new one, using titles. And this is a  
pain to do IMO.

We don't want a new user to start XE and find that all titles are  
duplicated by default with a clean wiki he hasn't touched.

WDYT?

Thanks
-Vincent

>> Is the h1 hidden in this case ?
>>
>> 7) make the toc macro start at first header level instead of second
>>
>>>
>>> We need at least 1), 3), 6) to be able to release the Colibri skin  
>>> for
>>> 2.0 final IMO.
>>>
>>> WDYT?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> -Vincent

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Re: [Proposal] Change of title behavior proposal

Denis Gervalle
In reply to this post by vmassol

On Sep 8, 2009, at 14:48, Vincent Massol wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> With Colibri we've started to display the doc title as the document's
> rendered title. This is a big change that not only affects Colibri but
> in general the way people write documents.
>
> Here's what I suggest:
>
> 1) Display doc titles with <div>

title should be in H1 to comply with WAI.

> 2) Display document content headers using <h1>-<h6>
> 3) Display doc titles with a larger font size than h1 (or h1 with a
> smaller font size)
> 4) Force cursor to be in the title field when editing a new document.
> Force cursor in the content field when editing an existing document.
> This is to make it easy using the keyboard only to enter doc titles
> (since it's currently dead easy, we need something close in easiness)
> 5) Modify all our existing skins: Toucan, Albatross, Finch and Dodo so
> that they use they display the doc title, similarly to Colibri
> 6) Have a title compatibility flag in xwiki.cfg. When active, use a
> Javascript to do this: if there's no title specified for a page and if
> the first content is a H1 then use it as the page's title.
>
> We need at least 1), 3), 6) to be able to release the Colibri skin for
> 2.0 final IMO.
>
> WDYT?
>

I wonder if "compatibility mode" is really required. This may add  
complexity for the end user wihtout real benefit IMO. Is there really  
a case where a document has a first = ... = that is not the title of  
the document when no title has been explicitly specified ?

If there is no such case, why not use a behavior like these ones:

1) When editing a document, if no title is specified and first node is  
a = ... =, use that node as the title and store its value in the title  
field.
        Option A: Leave the title in = ... = as well and avoid duplication on  
display.
         Option B: Remove the = ... = from the document.
                B1: in WYSIWYG, completely get rid of the title field, title being  
edited in the first = ... =, this would be more simple and more  
WYSIWYG and avoid 4)

2) For fixing old documents (without messing up new one):
        Option A: When displaying/editing a document without title and a  
first = ... = is available, do what 1) shoud have already done before  
proceeding
         Option B: When migrating the database, ensure that all titles  
are properly stored as it should have been.

For providing navigation, title is really important to be easily  
accessible in the storage, but from the user point of view I feel that  
the title of a document is just the first = ... =. I usually forget to  
precise a title in my document, I never omit involuntarily to put an  
initial = ... =.

Hope this helps,

Denis Gervalle

> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> _______________________________________________
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