[Proposal] Include Selenium app in the default wiki?

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[Proposal] Include Selenium app in the default wiki?

vmassol
Administrator
Hi,

I committed in SVN the automatic inclusion of our Functional Test  
suite in the default wiki. Sergiu rightly pointed that we need to  
discuss this before including it as it's not completely end user  
focused.

Here are the reasons I thought it would be good to be included:

1) It's related to end users if we say that this is a feature to  
verify that XWiki is correctly installed. They can delete it after if  
they want. I strongly believe tests should extend to users in some  
manner, especially for an open source project.

2) This would allow users to help us discover problems in a more  
controlled manner. Indeed if users have this app installed, once they  
encounter a problem they could record a test suite proving the  
problem and give it to us. This would 1) increase our test suite and  
2) allow us to reproduce the pb, fix it and verify the fix passes the  
test. In some way this is about transforming a portion of our users  
into contributors :)

Now Sergiu says that this is increasing the size of the default Wiki.  
Yes this is true. It goes from 320KB to 542KB. Is it worth it?

To be honest, I don't know if this will work or not but I was curious  
to try it out and see what we can come up with.

My idea here is really to try lowering the bar for writing functional  
tests for everyone and for us to get better at controlling if XWiki  
works or not.

We could have another wiki (say "wikidebug" or "wikitest") which is  
the default wiki + the Selenium app and let people interested use it.  
But it won't be as effective I think. I find it kind of cool to have  
our installation verification tool inside the delivered default wiki.

Another idea: we could have a button in Selenium.WebHome to  
completely remove the space if the user doesn't want it for example.

Anyway I'm curious to know what everyone thinks about this. I agree  
with Sergiu that it's not 100% required. At the same I'm curious with  
the experiment.

Thanks
-Vincent

PS: If we decide we don't want it I'll remove it from the build so  
that it isn't included in the default wiki by default and I'll mark  
XWIKI-959 as won't fix.





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Re: [Proposal] Include Selenium app in the default wiki?

jeremi joslin-2
Hi,
I'm not for letting selenium by default on the wiki. I would prefer to
setup a config parameter to add it.
is it possible to activate selenium just by adding to the url ?selenium=1 ?
like this it easy to activate fo the current page, and normal user
don't have to load it.

jeremi

On 3/9/07, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I committed in SVN the automatic inclusion of our Functional Test
> suite in the default wiki. Sergiu rightly pointed that we need to
> discuss this before including it as it's not completely end user
> focused.
>
> Here are the reasons I thought it would be good to be included:
>
> 1) It's related to end users if we say that this is a feature to
> verify that XWiki is correctly installed. They can delete it after if
> they want. I strongly believe tests should extend to users in some
> manner, especially for an open source project.
>
> 2) This would allow users to help us discover problems in a more
> controlled manner. Indeed if users have this app installed, once they
> encounter a problem they could record a test suite proving the
> problem and give it to us. This would 1) increase our test suite and
> 2) allow us to reproduce the pb, fix it and verify the fix passes the
> test. In some way this is about transforming a portion of our users
> into contributors :)
>
> Now Sergiu says that this is increasing the size of the default Wiki.
> Yes this is true. It goes from 320KB to 542KB. Is it worth it?
>
> To be honest, I don't know if this will work or not but I was curious
> to try it out and see what we can come up with.
>
> My idea here is really to try lowering the bar for writing functional
> tests for everyone and for us to get better at controlling if XWiki
> works or not.
>
> We could have another wiki (say "wikidebug" or "wikitest") which is
> the default wiki + the Selenium app and let people interested use it.
> But it won't be as effective I think. I find it kind of cool to have
> our installation verification tool inside the delivered default wiki.
>
> Another idea: we could have a button in Selenium.WebHome to
> completely remove the space if the user doesn't want it for example.
>
> Anyway I'm curious to know what everyone thinks about this. I agree
> with Sergiu that it's not 100% required. At the same I'm curious with
> the experiment.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> PS: If we decide we don't want it I'll remove it from the build so
> that it isn't included in the default wiki by default and I'll mark
> XWIKI-959 as won't fix.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> You receive this message as a subscriber of the [hidden email] mailing list.
> To unsubscribe: mailto:[hidden email]
> For general help: mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help
> ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://www.objectweb.org/wws
>
>

--
Jeremi Joslin (http://www.jeremi.info)
skype: jeremi23 - jabber: [hidden email]
http://www.xwiki.com - http://www.pengyou-project.info



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Re: [Proposal] Include Selenium app in the default wiki?

Sergiu Dumitriu
In reply to this post by vmassol


On 3/9/07, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

I committed in SVN the automatic inclusion of our Functional Test
suite in the default wiki.

Which I like very much, as a developer. 

Sergiu rightly pointed that we need to
discuss this before including it as it's not completely end user
focused.

Here are the reasons I thought it would be good to be included:

1) It's related to end users if we say that this is a feature to
verify that XWiki is correctly installed. They can delete it after if
they want. I strongly believe tests should extend to users in some
manner, especially for an open source project.

I'd say not end users, but site admins, users deploying wikis, debuggers, people knowing at least a bit of web development. From my experience, most end users barely know HTML, or even the difference between a web application and a standard one.

2) This would allow users to help us discover problems in a more
controlled manner. Indeed if users have this app installed, once they
encounter a problem they could record a test suite proving the
problem and give it to us. This would 1) increase our test suite and
2) allow us to reproduce the pb, fix it and verify the fix passes the
test. In some way this is about transforming a portion of our users
into contributors :)

If they know how to use Selenium, they should know how to install it. Indeed, this is a good thing, and I hope we will see this kind of feedback.

I'd also add:

3) This can be used to test if a custom skin follows the Wiki skin principles (which are not defined). Meaning, we can provide a standard set of tests to check some functionalities, or requirements of the skin, like: is the edit button accessible from the skin? Can an anonymous user edit pages? Does the skin have a logo, pointing to the main page? Is the menu working? You get the point. These tests' results should not be fail/pass, but yes/no, something like a ./configure in the Linux world.

4) It's transparent, if you need it you can find it there, but it's not popping up in the interface.

Now Sergiu says that this is increasing the size of the default Wiki.
Yes this is true. It goes from 320KB to 542KB. Is it worth it?

To be honest, I don't know if this will work or not but I was curious
to try it out and see what we can come up with.

My idea here is really to try lowering the bar for writing functional
tests for everyone and for us to get better at controlling if XWiki
works or not.

We could have another wiki (say "wikidebug" or "wikitest") which is
the default wiki + the Selenium app and let people interested use it.
But it won't be as effective I think. I find it kind of cool to have
our installation verification tool inside the delivered default wiki.

The problem is that people trying to make use of XWiki will work on the database, so switching to the normal database will not be OK, since all the changes will be lost. Once they chose a database, they will stick to it.

Another idea: we could have a button in Selenium.WebHome to
completely remove the space if the user doesn't want it for example.

This, or if the component management will work fine, an uninstall button in the extension management area.

Anyway I'm curious to know what everyone thinks about this. I agree
with Sergiu that it's not 100% required. At the same I'm curious with
the experiment.

Thanks
-Vincent

PS: If we decide we don't want it I'll remove it from the build so
that it isn't included in the default wiki by default and I'll mark
XWIKI-959 as won't fix.

So, my vote is not -1, but 0. There are advantages, and very few disadvantages. What we would need more is the user opinion, and not the developer one. Should we forward on xwiki-users?

Sergiu
--
http://purl.org/net/sergiu

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Re: [Proposal] Include Selenium app in the default wiki?

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by jeremi joslin-2

On Mar 9, 2007, at 3:52 PM, jeremi joslin wrote:

> Hi,
> I'm not for letting selenium by default on the wiki. I would prefer to
> setup a config parameter to add it.
> is it possible to activate selenium just by adding to the url ?
> selenium=1 ?
> like this it easy to activate fo the current page, and normal user
> don't have to load it.

I don't understand what you mean Jeremi. If Selenium XAR is not  
included in the default wiki then it cannot be activated as it won't  
be there. Of course any user can at any time include it in his wiki  
(this is already available).

-Vincent

> On 3/9/07, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I committed in SVN the automatic inclusion of our Functional Test
>> suite in the default wiki. Sergiu rightly pointed that we need to
>> discuss this before including it as it's not completely end user
>> focused.
>>
>> Here are the reasons I thought it would be good to be included:
>>
>> 1) It's related to end users if we say that this is a feature to
>> verify that XWiki is correctly installed. They can delete it after if
>> they want. I strongly believe tests should extend to users in some
>> manner, especially for an open source project.
>>
>> 2) This would allow users to help us discover problems in a more
>> controlled manner. Indeed if users have this app installed, once they
>> encounter a problem they could record a test suite proving the
>> problem and give it to us. This would 1) increase our test suite and
>> 2) allow us to reproduce the pb, fix it and verify the fix passes the
>> test. In some way this is about transforming a portion of our users
>> into contributors :)
>>
>> Now Sergiu says that this is increasing the size of the default Wiki.
>> Yes this is true. It goes from 320KB to 542KB. Is it worth it?
>>
>> To be honest, I don't know if this will work or not but I was curious
>> to try it out and see what we can come up with.
>>
>> My idea here is really to try lowering the bar for writing functional
>> tests for everyone and for us to get better at controlling if XWiki
>> works or not.
>>
>> We could have another wiki (say "wikidebug" or "wikitest") which is
>> the default wiki + the Selenium app and let people interested use it.
>> But it won't be as effective I think. I find it kind of cool to have
>> our installation verification tool inside the delivered default wiki.
>>
>> Another idea: we could have a button in Selenium.WebHome to
>> completely remove the space if the user doesn't want it for example.
>>
>> Anyway I'm curious to know what everyone thinks about this. I agree
>> with Sergiu that it's not 100% required. At the same I'm curious with
>> the experiment.
>>
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent
>>
>> PS: If we decide we don't want it I'll remove it from the build so
>> that it isn't included in the default wiki by default and I'll mark
>> XWIKI-959 as won't fix.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> You receive this message as a subscriber of the xwiki-
>> [hidden email] mailing list.
>> To unsubscribe: mailto:[hidden email]
>> For general help: mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help
>> ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://
>> www.objectweb.org/wws
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Jeremi Joslin (http://www.jeremi.info)
> skype: jeremi23 - jabber: [hidden email]
> http://www.xwiki.com - http://www.pengyou-project.info
>
>
> --
> You receive this message as a subscriber of the xwiki-
> [hidden email] mailing list.
> To unsubscribe: mailto:[hidden email]
> For general help: mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help
> ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://www.objectweb.org/ 
> wws



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Re: [Proposal] Include Selenium app in the default wiki?

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by Sergiu Dumitriu

On Mar 9, 2007, at 3:59 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:



On 3/9/07, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

I committed in SVN the automatic inclusion of our Functional Test
suite in the default wiki.

Which I like very much, as a developer. 

Sergiu rightly pointed that we need to
discuss this before including it as it's not completely end user
focused.

Here are the reasons I thought it would be good to be included:

1) It's related to end users if we say that this is a feature to
verify that XWiki is correctly installed. They can delete it after if
they want. I strongly believe tests should extend to users in some
manner, especially for an open source project.

I'd say not end users, but site admins, users deploying wikis, debuggers, people knowing at least a bit of web development. From my experience, most end users barely know HTML, or even the difference between a web application and a standard one.

Completely agree here. For me users = people who install XWiki. I guess we could make the Selenium app only visible to Admins but I don't think that's the core of the discussion here.


2) This would allow users to help us discover problems in a more
controlled manner. Indeed if users have this app installed, once they
encounter a problem they could record a test suite proving the
problem and give it to us. This would 1) increase our test suite and
2) allow us to reproduce the pb, fix it and verify the fix passes the
test. In some way this is about transforming a portion of our users
into contributors :)

If they know how to use Selenium, they should know how to install it. Indeed, this is a good thing, and I hope we will see this kind of feedback.

I'd also add:

3) This can be used to test if a custom skin follows the Wiki skin principles (which are not defined). Meaning, we can provide a standard set of tests to check some functionalities, or requirements of the skin, like: is the edit button accessible from the skin? Can an anonymous user edit pages? Does the skin have a logo, pointing to the main page? Is the menu working? You get the point. These tests' results should not be fail/pass, but yes/no, something like a ./configure in the Linux world.

4) It's transparent, if you need it you can find it there, but it's not popping up in the interface.

Now Sergiu says that this is increasing the size of the default Wiki.
Yes this is true. It goes from 320KB to 542KB. Is it worth it?

To be honest, I don't know if this will work or not but I was curious
to try it out and see what we can come up with.

My idea here is really to try lowering the bar for writing functional
tests for everyone and for us to get better at controlling if XWiki
works or not.

We could have another wiki (say "wikidebug" or "wikitest") which is
the default wiki + the Selenium app and let people interested use it.
But it won't be as effective I think. I find it kind of cool to have
our installation verification tool inside the delivered default wiki.

The problem is that people trying to make use of XWiki will work on the database, so switching to the normal database will not be OK, since all the changes will be lost. Once they chose a database, they will stick to it.

Another idea: we could have a button in Selenium.WebHome to
completely remove the space if the user doesn't want it for example.

This, or if the component management will work fine, an uninstall button in the extension management area.

Anyway I'm curious to know what everyone thinks about this. I agree
with Sergiu that it's not 100% required. At the same I'm curious with
the experiment.

Thanks
-Vincent

PS: If we decide we don't want it I'll remove it from the build so
that it isn't included in the default wiki by default and I'll mark
XWIKI-959 as won't fix.

So, my vote is not -1, but 0. There are advantages, and very few disadvantages. What we would need more is the user opinion, and not the developer one. Should we forward on xwiki-users?

I now think we should not include it for now as in any case:

1) We don't have enough tests yet. We need a bare minimum. So we need to work on the Selenium app to include more tests for now. We do need an easy way for developers and for contributors to add tests. I think we should install an instance somewhere, maybe on test.xwiki.org?

2) We need to work on it so that becomes extremely easy to use and we should probably provide some user guide once we learn more how to use it. Right now I have only done 1 test (test registration of a user) which was real easy to do but I've quickly tried using it on the WYSIWYG editor and it wasn't as easy (for example we're missing some names, class id, etc to make it easy for Selenium to find HTML elements).

Thus if you're ok I'll remove it from the default wiki but I'll create another wiki (wikis/test for example) which will be the wiki we could upload on test.xwiki.org for example and where we can ask the community to help in writing tests.

WDYT?

Thanks
-Vincent



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Re: [Proposal] Include Selenium app in the default wiki?

Sergiu Dumitriu
I now think we should not include it for now as in any case:

1) We don't have enough tests yet. We need a bare minimum. So we need to work on the Selenium app to include more tests for now. We do need an easy way for developers and for contributors to add tests. I think we should install an instance somewhere, maybe on <a href="http://test.xwiki.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">test.xwiki.org?

2) We need to work on it so that becomes extremely easy to use and we should probably provide some user guide once we learn more how to use it. Right now I have only done 1 test (test registration of a user) which was real easy to do but I've quickly tried using it on the WYSIWYG editor and it wasn't as easy (for example we're missing some names, class id, etc to make it easy for Selenium to find HTML elements).

Thus if you're ok I'll remove it from the default wiki but I'll create another wiki (wikis/test for example) which will be the wiki we could upload on <a href="http://test.xwiki.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> test.xwiki.org for example and where we can ask the community to help in writing tests.

WDYT?

Thanks
-Vincent

You're right. It's better for the moment not to include it. We need to make people visit test.xwiki.org 'cause none of the xpn members can spare time for it.

Sergiu
--
http://purl.org/net/sergiu

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Re: [Proposal] Include Selenium app in the default wiki?

Catalin Hritcu
I am for not including the Selenium app in the default wiki, unless
it's a special debuggers build, because I am skeptical that this will
have any benefit for most end users.

My vote is 0.

Catalin

On 3/9/07, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> >
> >
> >
> > I now think we should not include it for now as in any case:
> >
> >
> > 1) We don't have enough tests yet. We need a bare minimum. So we need to
> work on the Selenium app to include more tests for now. We do need an easy
> way for developers and for contributors to add tests. I think we should
> install an instance somewhere, maybe on test.xwiki.org?
> >
> >
> > 2) We need to work on it so that becomes extremely easy to use and we
> should probably provide some user guide once we learn more how to use it.
> Right now I have only done 1 test (test registration of a user) which was
> real easy to do but I've quickly tried using it on the WYSIWYG editor and it
> wasn't as easy (for example we're missing some names, class id, etc to make
> it easy for Selenium to find HTML elements).
> >
> >
> > Thus if you're ok I'll remove it from the default wiki but I'll create
> another wiki (wikis/test for example) which will be the wiki we could upload
> on test.xwiki.org for example and where we can ask the community to help in
> writing tests.
> >
> >
> > WDYT?
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
>
> You're right. It's better for the moment not to include it. We need to make
> people visit test.xwiki.org 'cause none of the xpn members can spare time
> for it.
>
>
> Sergiu
> --
> http://purl.org/net/sergiu
>
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> You receive this message as a subscriber of the [hidden email]
> mailing list.
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>
>


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Re: [Proposal] Include Selenium app in the default wiki?

vmassol
Administrator

On Mar 10, 2007, at 8:41 PM, Catalin Hritcu wrote:

> I am for not including the Selenium app in the default wiki, unless
> it's a special debuggers build, because I am skeptical that this will
> have any benefit for most end users.

Already removed :)

(but thanks for answering)

Thanks
-Vincent

> My vote is 0.
>
> Catalin
>
> On 3/9/07, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I now think we should not include it for now as in any case:
>> >
>> >
>> > 1) We don't have enough tests yet. We need a bare minimum. So we  
>> need to
>> work on the Selenium app to include more tests for now. We do need  
>> an easy
>> way for developers and for contributors to add tests. I think we  
>> should
>> install an instance somewhere, maybe on test.xwiki.org?
>> >
>> >
>> > 2) We need to work on it so that becomes extremely easy to use  
>> and we
>> should probably provide some user guide once we learn more how to  
>> use it.
>> Right now I have only done 1 test (test registration of a user)  
>> which was
>> real easy to do but I've quickly tried using it on the WYSIWYG  
>> editor and it
>> wasn't as easy (for example we're missing some names, class id,  
>> etc to make
>> it easy for Selenium to find HTML elements).
>> >
>> >
>> > Thus if you're ok I'll remove it from the default wiki but I'll  
>> create
>> another wiki (wikis/test for example) which will be the wiki we  
>> could upload
>> on test.xwiki.org for example and where we can ask the community  
>> to help in
>> writing tests.
>> >
>> >
>> > WDYT?
>> >
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> > -Vincent
>>
>> You're right. It's better for the moment not to include it. We  
>> need to make
>> people visit test.xwiki.org 'cause none of the xpn members can  
>> spare time
>> for it.
>>
>>
>> Sergiu
>> --
>> http://purl.org/net/sergiu
>>
>> --
>> You receive this message as a subscriber of the xwiki-
>> [hidden email]
>> mailing list.
>> To unsubscribe: mailto:[hidden email]
>> For general help: mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help
>> ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://
>> www.objectweb.org/wws
>>
>>
>
>
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