[Proposal] Introduce a 'Create' entry in the menu

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[Proposal] Introduce a 'Create' entry in the menu

Sergiu Dumitriu-2
Hi devs,

I'd like to introduce a 'Create' entry in the XWiki action menu. This
would be the first entry (it would appear before 'Edit') and would have
the following sub-menus:
- Page
- Page from Office Document
- Space

The "Page from Office document" entry replaces the "Import Office
Document" entry from the "Actions" menu, which IMHO does not really fit
there. This allows to also get rid of the "Create" panel, and have all
the features available from the menu.

We could include this only in the Colibri skin for the moment,
experimentally, to see how it is received by the users.
--
Sergiu Dumitriu
http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
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Re: [Proposal] Introduce a 'Create' entry in the menu

Guillaume Lerouge
Hi,

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 12:12 AM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi devs,
>
> I'd like to introduce a 'Create' entry in the XWiki action menu. This
> would be the first entry (it would appear before 'Edit') and would have
> the following sub-menus:
> - Page
> - Page from Office Document
> - Space
>

I like the idea. I've got a couple remarks though.

The action bar is meant to be contextual to the current page - to hold
actions related to the current page. This will be made clearer once we move
the action bar closer to the content area. Therefore we should make clear
that the create button does stuff related to the current page by:

   - renaming "Page" into "Child page"
      - make sure that the created page has the current one set as its
      parent
   - renaming "Page from Office Document" into "Child page from Office
   Document"
      - make sure that the created page has the current page as its parent
      (might require a couple changes to the OOImporter XApplication)

Making the created page a child of the current page has at least 3 benefits:

   - it respects the wiki philosophy that pages should always be
linked together
   (no orphan pages)
   - it is consistent with other action bars action (creating a child page
   is related to the current page)
   - it makes it easier to create a tree-like navigation structure (we often
   do that on wiki pages: create a new page that links towards a set of pages)
      - we could also introduce a {{childrenpages /}} macro to make the
      creation of tree stuctures even easier

I've purposedly not included the "Create space" button for 2 reasons:

   - it doesn't fit with the "related to the current page" rule
   - spaces are high-level items and they have a specific role in XWiki

Creating a new space without knowing which spaces already exist makes it
easy to create "Space clutter" (we experience it on our intranet for
instance). Right now, the home page (through the Dashboard) already displays
the list of spaces in the wiki and provides a "create new space" button.

I think this button is enough to provide an interface for new space creation
and that it doesn't have to be duplicated on every page for the reasons set
out above.


> The "Page from Office document" entry replaces the "Import Office
> Document" entry from the "Actions" menu, which IMHO does not really fit
> there. This allows to also get rid of the "Create" panel, and have all
> the features available from the menu.
>

I've got another semantic question: should we use "Create" or "Add" (or
something else)?

   - Create
      - "create whild page"
      - "create child page from Office Document"
   - Add
      - "add child page"
      - "add child page from Office Document"

My gut feeling is that "add" sounds better (I can't really give a rational
reason) thus I'd like to get other people's feedback about it.


> We could include this only in the Colibri skin for the moment,
> experimentally, to see how it is received by the users.
>

Definitely.

Thanks,
Guillaume


> --
> Sergiu Dumitriu
> http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>



--
Guillaume Lerouge
Product Manager - XWiki
Skype: wikibc
Twitter: glerouge
http://guillaumelerouge.com/
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Re: [Proposal] Introduce a 'Create' entry in the menu

rrodrigueznt
In reply to this post by Sergiu Dumitriu-2
Hi,

Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:

> Hi devs,
>
> I'd like to introduce a 'Create' entry in the XWiki action menu. This
> would be the first entry (it would appear before 'Edit') and would have
> the following sub-menus:
> - Page
> - Page from Office Document
> - Space
>
> The "Page from Office document" entry replaces the "Import Office
> Document" entry from the "Actions" menu, which IMHO does not really fit
> there. This allows to also get rid of the "Create" panel, and have all
> the features available from the menu.
>
> We could include this only in the Colibri skin for the moment,
> experimentally, to see how it is received by the users.
>  

This is the more frequent queries from people arriving to XWiki on their
own here. How do I create a new page?

Even though we usually provide "seed documents", thus people have only
to edit them, it is rather frequent that people want to experiment with
the system and use it to create their own pages to hold contents related
with their daily work.

At this point, the system must face another challenge: how to guide an
user wanting to create content easing the decision about where create
new pages? I could figure out some kind o method using Document Type and
offering a set of templates based on user profiling. I guess templates
will define the wiki/space where new documents will be created.

To "create" is the action that satisfy the most any new user. It implies
power to use the system to accomplish her/his objectives. A clear +1 to
this option.

As for creating pages from Office Documents. Well, it is an example
about how things are doing around! Users frequently use Word to draft
contents that will be copy/pasted in a xwiki page. I try to avoid this
by putting a number of examples about how simpler tools will be more
effective. I do need to come back on off-line edition of xwiki pages to
be able to offer a reliable solution.

Just my two cents by gathering some users experiences from my environment.

Greetings,

Ricardo

--
Ricardo Rodríguez
Your EPEC Network ICT Team

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Editing from MS Word (was Re: [Proposal] Introduce a 'Create' entry in the menu)

vmassol
Administrator

On Aug 31, 2009, at 10:04 AM, [Ricardo Rodriguez] Your EPEC Network  
ICT Team wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:
>> Hi devs,
>>
>> I'd like to introduce a 'Create' entry in the XWiki action menu. This
>> would be the first entry (it would appear before 'Edit') and would  
>> have
>> the following sub-menus:
>> - Page
>> - Page from Office Document
>> - Space
>>
>> The "Page from Office document" entry replaces the "Import Office
>> Document" entry from the "Actions" menu, which IMHO does not really  
>> fit
>> there. This allows to also get rid of the "Create" panel, and have  
>> all
>> the features available from the menu.
>>
>> We could include this only in the Colibri skin for the moment,
>> experimentally, to see how it is received by the users.
>>
>
> This is the more frequent queries from people arriving to XWiki on  
> their
> own here. How do I create a new page?
>
> Even though we usually provide "seed documents", thus people have only
> to edit them, it is rather frequent that people want to experiment  
> with
> the system and use it to create their own pages to hold contents  
> related
> with their daily work.
>
> At this point, the system must face another challenge: how to guide an
> user wanting to create content easing the decision about where create
> new pages? I could figure out some kind o method using Document Type  
> and
> offering a set of templates based on user profiling. I guess templates
> will define the wiki/space where new documents will be created.
>
> To "create" is the action that satisfy the most any new user. It  
> implies
> power to use the system to accomplish her/his objectives. A clear +1  
> to
> this option.
>
> As for creating pages from Office Documents. Well, it is an example
> about how things are doing around! Users frequently use Word to draft
> contents that will be copy/pasted in a xwiki page. I try to avoid this
> by putting a number of examples about how simpler tools will be more
> effective. I do need to come back on off-line edition of xwiki pages  
> to
> be able to offer a reliable solution.

Do you know that we have a MS Office plugin so that people can edit  
their wiki pages directly from word?

Actually I don't know if this plugin supports offline writing or not.
It's not listed on http://xoffice.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Main/ 
WebHome as a feature.

Florin?

Thanks
-Vincent

>
> Just my two cents by gathering some users experiences from my  
> environment.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Ricardo
>
> --
> Ricardo Rodríguez
> Your EPEC Network ICT Team

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Re: [Proposal] Introduce a 'Create' entry in the menu

rrodrigueznt
In reply to this post by Guillaume Lerouge
Hi,

Guillaume Lerouge wrote:

>> I've got another semantic question: should we use "Create" or "Add" (or
>> something else)?
>>
>>    - Create
>>       - "create whild page"
>>       - "create child page from Office Document"
>>    - Add
>>       - "add child page"
>>       - "add child page from Office Document"
>>
>> My gut feeling is that "add" sounds better (I can't really give a rational
>> reason) thus I'd like to get other people's feedback about it.
>>
>>    


What about simply "New..."?

Thunderbird and Firefox use this formula. This way we avoid to choose
between "create" and "add". Let users to choose! :-)

--
Ricardo Rodríguez
Your EPEC Network ICT Team

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Re: Editing from MS Word (was Re: [Proposal] Introduce a 'Create' entry in the menu)

rrodrigueznt
In reply to this post by vmassol

Vincent Massol wrote:

>
>
> Do you know that we have a MS Office plugin so that people can edit  
> their wiki pages directly from word?
>
> Actually I don't know if this plugin supports offline writing or not.
> It's not listed on http://xoffice.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Main/ 
> WebHome as a feature.
>
> Florin?
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent


Thanks Vincent. Yeap, I've been following this development, but I've not
tried it yet. In fact, I would prefer any option not involving Word.
Word, what for? I know, I know, it could be a quite useful piece of
software, but when writing scientific papers it is arguable its usefulness.

I can easily figure out a much simple tool, a collaborative edition
tool, focused on collaboration. Something like SPAWN
(http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Design/SPAWN) will be greatly
welcome although I would like to add off-line edition to the "Required
Features" list.

In any case, to have such an alternative will be great. But perhaps it
will greatly rely on the Windows/Mac/Office releases installed on a
given box. But of course I can not day that without testing it!

Cheers,

Ricardo

--
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Your EPEC Network ICT Team

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Re: Editing from MS Word (was Re: [Proposal] Introduce a 'Create' entry in the menu)

Florin Ciubotaru
Hi,

[Ricardo Rodriguez] Your EPEC Network ICT Team wrote:

> Vincent Massol wrote:
>  
>> Do you know that we have a MS Office plugin so that people can edit  
>> their wiki pages directly from word?
>>
>> Actually I don't know if this plugin supports offline writing or not.
>> It's not listed on http://xoffice.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Main/ 
>> WebHome as a feature.
>>
>> Florin?
>>    
This seems a bit off-topic. There is no explicit offline support, but
the user is free to save as many local drafts before publishing the
page/document. Local path and document format changes are allowed.
Regarding the menus, it would be great if we could add entries that
could permit editing with XEclipse, XOffice or XOO depending on the
user's system. Unfortunately I don't see how this can be done without
some kind of bowser extensions.

>> Thanks
>> -Vincent
>>    
>
>
> Thanks Vincent. Yeap, I've been following this development, but I've not
> tried it yet. In fact, I would prefer any option not involving Word.
> Word, what for? I know, I know, it could be a quite useful piece of
> software, but when writing scientific papers it is arguable its usefulness.
>
> I can easily figure out a much simple tool, a collaborative edition
> tool, focused on collaboration. Something like SPAWN
> (http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Design/SPAWN) will be greatly
> welcome although I would like to add off-line edition to the "Required
> Features" list.
>
> In any case, to have such an alternative will be great. But perhaps it
> will greatly rely on the Windows/Mac/Office releases installed on a
> given box. But of course I can not day that without testing it!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ricardo
>
>  

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Re: Editing from MS Word (was Re: [Proposal] Introduce a 'Create' entry in the menu)

rrodrigueznt
Thanks Florin.

Florin Ciubotaru wrote:

> Hi,
>
> [Ricardo Rodriguez] Your EPEC Network ICT Team wrote:
>  
>> Vincent Massol wrote:
>>  
>>    
>>> Do you know that we have a MS Office plugin so that people can edit  
>>> their wiki pages directly from word?
>>>
>>> Actually I don't know if this plugin supports offline writing or not.
>>> It's not listed on http://xoffice.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Main/ 
>>> WebHome as a feature.
>>>
>>> Florin?
>>>    
>>>      
> This seems a bit off-topic. There is no explicit offline support, but
> the user is free to save as many local drafts before publishing the
> page/document. Local path and document format changes are allowed.
> Regarding the menus, it would be great if we could add entries that
> could permit editing with XEclipse, XOffice or XOO depending on the
> user's system. Unfortunately I don't see how this can be done without
> some kind of bowser extensions.

As said in a previous thread, the more ways we have to edit a document,
the best!

Concerning XOffice and even I contribute to go on off-topic, please, is
it correct that it is only available for Windows+Office 2007
environments? I guess it is not an easy task to provided releases for
any Office/SO combination. Let's say, Mac OS X 10.5.8 and Word 2008 for
Mac.

Thanks!

--
Ricardo Rodríguez
Your EPEC Network ICT Team

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Re: Editing from MS Word (was Re: [Proposal] Introduce a 'Create' entry in the menu)

Florin Ciubotaru
[Ricardo Rodriguez] Your EPEC Network ICT Team wrote:

> Thanks Florin.
>
> Florin Ciubotaru wrote:
>  
>> Hi,
>>
>> [Ricardo Rodriguez] Your EPEC Network ICT Team wrote:
>>  
>>    
>>> Vincent Massol wrote:
>>>  
>>>    
>>>      
>>>> Do you know that we have a MS Office plugin so that people can edit  
>>>> their wiki pages directly from word?
>>>>
>>>> Actually I don't know if this plugin supports offline writing or not.
>>>> It's not listed on http://xoffice.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Main/ 
>>>> WebHome as a feature.
>>>>
>>>> Florin?
>>>>    
>>>>      
>>>>        
>> This seems a bit off-topic. There is no explicit offline support, but
>> the user is free to save as many local drafts before publishing the
>> page/document. Local path and document format changes are allowed.
>> Regarding the menus, it would be great if we could add entries that
>> could permit editing with XEclipse, XOffice or XOO depending on the
>> user's system. Unfortunately I don't see how this can be done without
>> some kind of bowser extensions.
>>    
>
> As said in a previous thread, the more ways we have to edit a document,
> the best!
>
> Concerning XOffice and even I contribute to go on off-topic, please, is
> it correct that it is only available for Windows+Office 2007
> environments? I guess it is not an easy task to provided releases for
> any Office/SO combination. Let's say, Mac OS X 10.5.8 and Word 2008 for
> Mac.
>
> Thanks!
>  

Yes, the official release is available for Windows+Office 2007 only.
There is also an Office 2003 add-in developed during this Google Summer
of Code and we have full compatibility with the closed preview version
of Office 2010. We use .net + vsto to create this add-ins, which is not
available for the Mac version of Office.

Thanks,
Florin Ciubotaru

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Re: [Proposal] Introduce a 'Create' entry in the menu

hel-o
In reply to this post by Guillaume Lerouge
Hi,

i'd like ad somthing to that proposal. If you plan to intreduce something like "create page" it would be great to have "create page from template" to. I think in fact thats more important than create space.

Guillaume Lerouge wrote
Hi,

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 12:12 AM, Sergiu Dumitriu <sergiu@xwiki.com> wrote:


The action bar is meant to be contextual to the current page - to hold
actions related to the current page. This will be made clearer once we move
the action bar closer to the content area. Therefore we should make clear
that the create button does stuff related to the current page by:

   - renaming "Page" into "Child page"
      - make sure that the created page has the current one set as its
      parent
   - renaming "Page from Office Document" into "Child page from Office
   Document"
      - make sure that the created page has the current page as its parent
      (might require a couple changes to the OOImporter XApplication)

Making the created page a child of the current page has at least 3 benefits:

   - it respects the wiki philosophy that pages should always be
linked together
   (no orphan pages)
   - it is consistent with other action bars action (creating a child page
   is related to the current page)
   - it makes it easier to create a tree-like navigation structure (we often
   do that on wiki pages: create a new page that links towards a set of pages)
      - we could also introduce a {{childrenpages /}} macro to make the
      creation of tree stuctures even easier
Taking that in account i think the create page should happen when you klick on a link pointing to a page that does not exist. That would be consequent and make the semantic question "create page" or "create child page obsolet". But i don't know if its possible.

So you click the link, a dialog appears asking:

- create page
- create page from template
- import from office

and thats it.

Cheers
hel.

 

semantic-web.hel.at
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Re: [Proposal] Introduce a 'Create' entry in the menu

Sergiu Dumitriu-2
hel-o wrote:
> Hi,
>
> i'd like ad somthing to that proposal. If you plan to intreduce something
> like "create page" it would be great to have "create page from template" to.
> I think in fact thats more important than create space.
>

The problem is that we don't have yet a way to identify which documents
are templates, but in the next release we should have a generic
mechanism for identifying templates, which would populate the Create menu.

> Guillaume Lerouge wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 12:12 AM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> The action bar is meant to be contextual to the current page - to hold
>> actions related to the current page. This will be made clearer once we
>> move
>> the action bar closer to the content area. Therefore we should make clear
>> that the create button does stuff related to the current page by:
>>
>>    - renaming "Page" into "Child page"
>>       - make sure that the created page has the current one set as its
>>       parent
>>    - renaming "Page from Office Document" into "Child page from Office
>>    Document"
>>       - make sure that the created page has the current page as its parent
>>       (might require a couple changes to the OOImporter XApplication)
>>
>> Making the created page a child of the current page has at least 3
>> benefits:
>>
>>    - it respects the wiki philosophy that pages should always be
>> linked together
>>    (no orphan pages)
>>    - it is consistent with other action bars action (creating a child page
>>    is related to the current page)
>>    - it makes it easier to create a tree-like navigation structure (we
>> often
>>    do that on wiki pages: create a new page that links towards a set of
>> pages)
>>       - we could also introduce a {{childrenpages /}} macro to make the
>>       creation of tree stuctures even easier
>>
>>
>
> Taking that in account i think the create page should happen when you klick
> on a link pointing to a page that does not exist. That would be consequent
> and make the semantic question "create page" or "create child page obsolet".
> But i don't know if its possible.
>
> So you click the link, a dialog appears asking:
>
> - create page
> - create page from template
> - import from office
>
> and thats it.

Yes, this is a good option too.

--
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http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
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Re: [Proposal] Introduce a 'Create' entry in the menu

hel-o
Sergiu Dumitriu-2 wrote
hel-o wrote:
> Hi,
>
> i'd like ad somthing to that proposal. If you plan to intreduce something
> like "create page" it would be great to have "create page from template" to.
> I think in fact thats more important than create space.
>

The problem is that we don't have yet a way to identify which documents
are templates, but in the next release we should have a generic
mechanism for identifying templates, which would populate the Create menu.
imho any page in the wiki could be a template. but a default space for templates and the possibility to make spaces unavailable as templates would be great.

hel.

 
semantic-web.hel.at
hel@hel.at