[Proposal] Turn off redirects in page move/rename

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[Proposal] Turn off redirects in page move/rename

vmassol
Administrator
Hi devs,

We see more and more wikis with tons of redirects and issues to manage them, see https://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-14570


Rationale for turning it off by default:
- Several users have reported a usability issue about automatic redirects. The way they express it is the following: "I have duplicates pages in my wiki. I don't understand why this is happening. I'm choosing to rename pages and not to copy them but I still get duplicates in the Navigation panel".
- Automatic redirects are especially useful for public wikis where users can have bookmark on pages and you don't want to break them. It can also be useful for internal wikis but it's less an issue.
- Even for public wikis not all pages need automatic redirects. Technical pages don't need them for example.


I’ve had Ludovic report that to me too again this morning.

Since we’ve been knowing about the problem for a while already and since it’s very easy to change the default behavior, I’d like to propose that we turn it off by default in XWiki 10.8 (ie right now, or if you think it’s really too dangerous in 10.9), and that we implement an option to configure the default behavior later on (https://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-13384).

WDYT?

Thanks
-Vincent


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Re: [Proposal] Turn off redirects in page move/rename

Adel Atallah
+1 but we have to make sure that users will be aware of this change.


On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 7:30 AM Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi devs,
>
> We see more and more wikis with tons of redirects and issues to manage them, see https://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-14570
>
> “
> Rationale for turning it off by default:
> - Several users have reported a usability issue about automatic redirects. The way they express it is the following: "I have duplicates pages in my wiki. I don't understand why this is happening. I'm choosing to rename pages and not to copy them but I still get duplicates in the Navigation panel".
> - Automatic redirects are especially useful for public wikis where users can have bookmark on pages and you don't want to break them. It can also be useful for internal wikis but it's less an issue.
> - Even for public wikis not all pages need automatic redirects. Technical pages don't need them for example.
> “
>
> I’ve had Ludovic report that to me too again this morning.
>
> Since we’ve been knowing about the problem for a while already and since it’s very easy to change the default behavior, I’d like to propose that we turn it off by default in XWiki 10.8 (ie right now, or if you think it’s really too dangerous in 10.9), and that we implement an option to configure the default behavior later on (https://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-13384).
>
> WDYT?
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>
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Re: [Proposal] Turn off redirects in page move/rename

vmassol
Administrator


> On 20 Sep 2018, at 09:54, Adel Atallah <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> +1 but we have to make sure that users will be aware of this change.

What do you suggest?

IMO having it in the RN is enough.

Thanks
-Vincent

>
>
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 7:30 AM Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi devs,
>>
>> We see more and more wikis with tons of redirects and issues to manage them, see https://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-14570
>>
>> “
>> Rationale for turning it off by default:
>> - Several users have reported a usability issue about automatic redirects. The way they express it is the following: "I have duplicates pages in my wiki. I don't understand why this is happening. I'm choosing to rename pages and not to copy them but I still get duplicates in the Navigation panel".
>> - Automatic redirects are especially useful for public wikis where users can have bookmark on pages and you don't want to break them. It can also be useful for internal wikis but it's less an issue.
>> - Even for public wikis not all pages need automatic redirects. Technical pages don't need them for example.
>> “
>>
>> I’ve had Ludovic report that to me too again this morning.
>>
>> Since we’ve been knowing about the problem for a while already and since it’s very easy to change the default behavior, I’d like to propose that we turn it off by default in XWiki 10.8 (ie right now, or if you think it’s really too dangerous in 10.9), and that we implement an option to configure the default behavior later on (https://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-13384).
>>
>> WDYT?
>>
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent
>>
>>

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Re: [Proposal] Turn off redirects in page move/rename

Adel Atallah
In fact it might already be clear enough that the option is unchecked
in the UI. I was just thinking that maybe some people would always
leave the default options while renaming a page and it might surprise
them that the default behavior has changed. Anyway I don't think it's
a big deal in any case.

Thanks,
Adel


On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 10:22 AM Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> > On 20 Sep 2018, at 09:54, Adel Atallah <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > +1 but we have to make sure that users will be aware of this change.
>
> What do you suggest?
>
> IMO having it in the RN is enough.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 7:30 AM Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi devs,
> >>
> >> We see more and more wikis with tons of redirects and issues to manage them, see https://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-14570
> >>
> >> “
> >> Rationale for turning it off by default:
> >> - Several users have reported a usability issue about automatic redirects. The way they express it is the following: "I have duplicates pages in my wiki. I don't understand why this is happening. I'm choosing to rename pages and not to copy them but I still get duplicates in the Navigation panel".
> >> - Automatic redirects are especially useful for public wikis where users can have bookmark on pages and you don't want to break them. It can also be useful for internal wikis but it's less an issue.
> >> - Even for public wikis not all pages need automatic redirects. Technical pages don't need them for example.
> >> “
> >>
> >> I’ve had Ludovic report that to me too again this morning.
> >>
> >> Since we’ve been knowing about the problem for a while already and since it’s very easy to change the default behavior, I’d like to propose that we turn it off by default in XWiki 10.8 (ie right now, or if you think it’s really too dangerous in 10.9), and that we implement an option to configure the default behavior later on (https://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-13384).
> >>
> >> WDYT?
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> -Vincent
> >>
> >>
>
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Re: [Proposal] Turn off redirects in page move/rename

vmassol
Administrator


> On 20 Sep 2018, at 10:29, Adel Atallah <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> In fact it might already be clear enough that the option is unchecked
> in the UI. I was just thinking that maybe some people would always
> leave the default options while renaming a page and it might surprise
> them that the default behavior has changed.

Yes you’re right ;) but that’s actually the reason for this change! Most people use the default and then get into trouble, that’s what we want to avoid. Now for people who pay attention and voluntarily set the redirect, I don’t think it would change much since they already pay attention…

Thanks
-Vincent

> Anyway I don't think it's
> a big deal in any case.
>
> Thanks,
> Adel
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 10:22 AM Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 20 Sep 2018, at 09:54, Adel Atallah <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> +1 but we have to make sure that users will be aware of this change.
>>
>> What do you suggest?
>>
>> IMO having it in the RN is enough.
>>
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 7:30 AM Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi devs,
>>>>
>>>> We see more and more wikis with tons of redirects and issues to manage them, see https://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-14570
>>>>
>>>> “
>>>> Rationale for turning it off by default:
>>>> - Several users have reported a usability issue about automatic redirects. The way they express it is the following: "I have duplicates pages in my wiki. I don't understand why this is happening. I'm choosing to rename pages and not to copy them but I still get duplicates in the Navigation panel".
>>>> - Automatic redirects are especially useful for public wikis where users can have bookmark on pages and you don't want to break them. It can also be useful for internal wikis but it's less an issue.
>>>> - Even for public wikis not all pages need automatic redirects. Technical pages don't need them for example.
>>>> “
>>>>
>>>> I’ve had Ludovic report that to me too again this morning.
>>>>
>>>> Since we’ve been knowing about the problem for a while already and since it’s very easy to change the default behavior, I’d like to propose that we turn it off by default in XWiki 10.8 (ie right now, or if you think it’s really too dangerous in 10.9), and that we implement an option to configure the default behavior later on (https://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-13384).
>>>>
>>>> WDYT?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> -Vincent
>>>>
>>>>
>>

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Re: [Proposal] Turn off redirects in page move/rename

Thomas Mortagne
Administrator
In reply to this post by vmassol
+1 and +1 for 10.8
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 7:30 AM Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi devs,
>
> We see more and more wikis with tons of redirects and issues to manage them, see https://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-14570
>
> “
> Rationale for turning it off by default:
> - Several users have reported a usability issue about automatic redirects. The way they express it is the following: "I have duplicates pages in my wiki. I don't understand why this is happening. I'm choosing to rename pages and not to copy them but I still get duplicates in the Navigation panel".
> - Automatic redirects are especially useful for public wikis where users can have bookmark on pages and you don't want to break them. It can also be useful for internal wikis but it's less an issue.
> - Even for public wikis not all pages need automatic redirects. Technical pages don't need them for example.
> “
>
> I’ve had Ludovic report that to me too again this morning.
>
> Since we’ve been knowing about the problem for a while already and since it’s very easy to change the default behavior, I’d like to propose that we turn it off by default in XWiki 10.8 (ie right now, or if you think it’s really too dangerous in 10.9), and that we implement an option to configure the default behavior later on (https://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-13384).
>
> WDYT?
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>


--
Thomas Mortagne
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Re: [Proposal] Turn off redirects in page move/rename

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by vmassol
So far:
* Vincent: ok
* Adel: ok
* Thomas: ok
* Marius: ok
* Simon: ok

I’ve now done it and documented it in the RN. Next step will be to provide a config option but not in 10.8 (too late for that).

Thanks
-Vincent

> On 20 Sep 2018, at 07:30, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi devs,
>
> We see more and more wikis with tons of redirects and issues to manage them, see https://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-14570
>
> “
> Rationale for turning it off by default:
> - Several users have reported a usability issue about automatic redirects. The way they express it is the following: "I have duplicates pages in my wiki. I don't understand why this is happening. I'm choosing to rename pages and not to copy them but I still get duplicates in the Navigation panel".
> - Automatic redirects are especially useful for public wikis where users can have bookmark on pages and you don't want to break them. It can also be useful for internal wikis but it's less an issue.
> - Even for public wikis not all pages need automatic redirects. Technical pages don't need them for example.
> “
>
> I’ve had Ludovic report that to me too again this morning.
>
> Since we’ve been knowing about the problem for a while already and since it’s very easy to change the default behavior, I’d like to propose that we turn it off by default in XWiki 10.8 (ie right now, or if you think it’s really too dangerous in 10.9), and that we implement an option to configure the default behavior later on (https://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-13384).
>
> WDYT?
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>

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Re: [Proposal] Turn off redirects in page move/rename

Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
It's good that we made this change :) , since there are users that have big
problems with it (as already stated by your examples). It's indeed useful
for Public Website, but the option can still be selected manually.

Thanks,
Caty

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:48 PM Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So far:
> * Vincent: ok
> * Adel: ok
> * Thomas: ok
> * Marius: ok
> * Simon: ok
>
> I’ve now done it and documented it in the RN. Next step will be to provide
> a config option but not in 10.8 (too late for that).
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> > On 20 Sep 2018, at 07:30, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi devs,
> >
> > We see more and more wikis with tons of redirects and issues to manage
> them, see https://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-14570
> >
> > “
> > Rationale for turning it off by default:
> > - Several users have reported a usability issue about automatic
> redirects. The way they express it is the following: "I have duplicates
> pages in my wiki. I don't understand why this is happening. I'm choosing to
> rename pages and not to copy them but I still get duplicates in the
> Navigation panel".
> > - Automatic redirects are especially useful for public wikis where users
> can have bookmark on pages and you don't want to break them. It can also be
> useful for internal wikis but it's less an issue.
> > - Even for public wikis not all pages need automatic redirects.
> Technical pages don't need them for example.
> > “
> >
> > I’ve had Ludovic report that to me too again this morning.
> >
> > Since we’ve been knowing about the problem for a while already and since
> it’s very easy to change the default behavior, I’d like to propose that we
> turn it off by default in XWiki 10.8 (ie right now, or if you think it’s
> really too dangerous in 10.9), and that we implement an option to configure
> the default behavior later on (https://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-13384).
> >
> > WDYT?
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: [Proposal] Turn off redirects in page move/rename

Guillaume Delhumeau
In reply to this post by vmassol
Le jeu. 20 sept. 2018 à 07:30, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> Hi devs,
>
> We see more and more wikis with tons of redirects and issues to manage
> them, see https://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-14570
>
> “
> Rationale for turning it off by default:
> - Several users have reported a usability issue about automatic redirects.
> The way they express it is the following: "I have duplicates pages in my
> wiki. I don't understand why this is happening. I'm choosing to rename
> pages and not to copy them but I still get duplicates in the Navigation
> panel".
>

Can't we hide the original page when we add the redirection so it won't be
listed anymore, instead of changing the default behavior?


> - Automatic redirects are especially useful for public wikis where users
> can have bookmark on pages and you don't want to break them. It can also be
> useful for internal wikis but it's less an issue.
> - Even for public wikis not all pages need automatic redirects. Technical
> pages don't need them for example.
> “
>
> I’ve had Ludovic report that to me too again this morning.
>
> Since we’ve been knowing about the problem for a while already and since
> it’s very easy to change the default behavior, I’d like to propose that we
> turn it off by default in XWiki 10.8 (ie right now, or if you think it’s
> really too dangerous in 10.9), and that we implement an option to configure
> the default behavior later on (https://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-13384).
>
> WDYT?
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>
>

--
Guillaume Delhumeau ([hidden email])
Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
Committer on the XWiki.org project
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Re: [Proposal] Turn off redirects in page move/rename

vmassol
Administrator


> On 1 Oct 2018, at 09:40, Guillaume Delhumeau <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Le jeu. 20 sept. 2018 à 07:30, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
>> Hi devs,
>>
>> We see more and more wikis with tons of redirects and issues to manage
>> them, see https://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-14570
>>
>> “
>> Rationale for turning it off by default:
>> - Several users have reported a usability issue about automatic redirects.
>> The way they express it is the following: "I have duplicates pages in my
>> wiki. I don't understand why this is happening. I'm choosing to rename
>> pages and not to copy them but I still get duplicates in the Navigation
>> panel".
>>
>
> Can't we hide the original page when we add the redirection

We do that already AFAIK :)

> so it won't be
> listed anymore, instead of changing the default behavior?

Thanks
-Vincent

>
>
>> - Automatic redirects are especially useful for public wikis where users
>> can have bookmark on pages and you don't want to break them. It can also be
>> useful for internal wikis but it's less an issue.
>> - Even for public wikis not all pages need automatic redirects. Technical
>> pages don't need them for example.
>> “
>>
>> I’ve had Ludovic report that to me too again this morning.
>>
>> Since we’ve been knowing about the problem for a while already and since
>> it’s very easy to change the default behavior, I’d like to propose that we
>> turn it off by default in XWiki 10.8 (ie right now, or if you think it’s
>> really too dangerous in 10.9), and that we implement an option to configure
>> the default behavior later on (https://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-13384).
>>
>> WDYT?
>>
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent