[Proposal] XWiki 2.0 Skin

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[Proposal] XWiki 2.0 Skin

Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
Hi devs,

You can see the proposal for the new skin at
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Skin20P1
Comments, opinions and implementation help are welcomed :)

Thanks,
Caty
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Re: [Proposal] XWiki 2.0 Skin

vmassol
Administrator

On Aug 7, 2009, at 7:13 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:

> Hi devs,
>
> You can see the proposal for the new skin at
> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Skin20P1
> Comments, opinions and implementation help are welcomed :)

* General: I like it a lot
* What happens when you click "Edit"? Is it possible to go in a given  
edit mode in one click?

Future:
* I'd like to see if there's a way to group tags at the top with the  
rest + potentially move all page information to the top somewhere

Thanks
-Vincent

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Re: [Proposal] XWiki 2.0 Skin

vmassol
Administrator
err... the bumblebee will not be there right? :)

Thanks
-Vincent

On Aug 7, 2009, at 7:19 PM, Vincent Massol wrote:

>
> On Aug 7, 2009, at 7:13 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
>
>> Hi devs,
>>
>> You can see the proposal for the new skin at
>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Skin20P1
>> Comments, opinions and implementation help are welcomed :)
>
> * General: I like it a lot
> * What happens when you click "Edit"? Is it possible to go in a  
> given edit mode in one click?
>
> Future:
> * I'd like to see if there's a way to group tags at the top with the  
> rest + potentially move all page information to the top somewhere
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>

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Re: [Proposal] XWiki 2.0 Skin

vmassol
Administrator
And just to be sure: the 3 column view is just an example of what it  
would like and not a default, right?

(it would be too large if it were on by default).

Thanks
-Vincent

On Aug 7, 2009, at 7:20 PM, Vincent Massol wrote:

> err... the bumblebee will not be there right? :)
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> On Aug 7, 2009, at 7:19 PM, Vincent Massol wrote:
>
>>
>> On Aug 7, 2009, at 7:13 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
>>
>>> Hi devs,
>>>
>>> You can see the proposal for the new skin at
>>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Skin20P1
>>> Comments, opinions and implementation help are welcomed :)
>>
>> * General: I like it a lot
>> * What happens when you click "Edit"? Is it possible to go in a  
>> given edit mode in one click?
>>
>> Future:
>> * I'd like to see if there's a way to group tags at the top with  
>> the rest + potentially move all page information to the top somewhere
>>
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent
>>
>

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Re: [Proposal] XWiki 2.0 Skin

Guillaume Lerouge
Hi,

On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 7:21 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:

> And just to be sure: the 3 column view is just an example of what it
> would like and not a default, right?
>
> (it would be too large if it were on by default).


It's just an example, you can have the layout you want.


> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> On Aug 7, 2009, at 7:20 PM, Vincent Massol wrote:
>
> > err... the bumblebee will not be there right? :)
>

Don't worry, the bees are there only here to demonstrate that it will be
easy to use a background-image behind the logo if needed ;-)

They won't be there in the final skin.

>
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> >
> > On Aug 7, 2009, at 7:19 PM, Vincent Massol wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On Aug 7, 2009, at 7:13 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi devs,
> >>>
> >>> You can see the proposal for the new skin at
> >>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Skin20P1
> >>> Comments, opinions and implementation help are welcomed :)
> >>
> >> * General: I like it a lot
> >> * What happens when you click "Edit"? Is it possible to go in a
> >> given edit mode in one click?
>

If you look at the interaction example given, you'll see that you can either
click straight on "Edit" which brings you to the default edition mode or
hover over Edit and the various edition options will show up.

See http://www.sohtanaka.com/web-design/examples/horizontal-subnav/ for the
concept.

>> Future:
> >> * I'd like to see if there's a way to group tags at the top with
> >> the rest + potentially move all page information to the top somewhere
>

Another option I thought about was to put the page information stuff in the
Information tab, leave the tabs at the bottom in edit mode, and when in edit
mode put the focus on the information tab and make the parent and syntax
editable from there.

I'm afraid putting too much information at the top would make the document
header too heavy.

>>
> >> Thanks
> >> -Vincent
> >>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>

I like this proposal quite much too :-)
Guillaume

--
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Product Manager - XWiki
Skype: wikibc
Twitter: glerouge
http://guillaumelerouge.com/
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Re: [Proposal] XWiki 2.0 Skin

Sergiu Dumitriu-2
In reply to this post by vmassol
Vincent Massol wrote:

> On Aug 7, 2009, at 7:13 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
>
>> Hi devs,
>>
>> You can see the proposal for the new skin at
>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Skin20P1
>> Comments, opinions and implementation help are welcomed :)
>
> Future:
> * I'd like to see if there's a way to group tags at the top with the  
> rest + potentially move all page information to the top somewhere

You can't have everything at the top. And I wouldn't like it. When I
come to a page, I want to see the content. "Content is King". Everybody
who ever used the Web knows that comments are at the bottom. Attachments
too. In many blog platforms tags are at the bottom as well. People know
this. If not, they can learn it.

WikiPatterns lists a lot of patterns that can push the wiki forward or
backward, but most of them are about people, and not about the placement
of things in the UI. People should encourage each other to use tags and
comments; the fact that we push them higher on the page doesn't mean
that people will start using them more often; it just annoys by standing
between the user and the content. And after I read the article and I'm
at the bottom, I have to scroll back up to tag or rate it. Or should I
tag a document before actually reading it?

Anyway, I'd really like to hear more from our users on this topic.

--
Sergiu Dumitriu
http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
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Re: [Proposal] XWiki 2.0 Skin

vmassol
Administrator

On Aug 7, 2009, at 9:29 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:

> Vincent Massol wrote:
>> On Aug 7, 2009, at 7:13 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
>>
>>> Hi devs,
>>>
>>> You can see the proposal for the new skin at
>>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Skin20P1
>>> Comments, opinions and implementation help are welcomed :)
>>
>> Future:
>> * I'd like to see if there's a way to group tags at the top with the
>> rest + potentially move all page information to the top somewhere
>
> You can't have everything at the top. And I wouldn't like it. When I
> come to a page, I want to see the content. "Content is King".  
> Everybody
> who ever used the Web knows that comments are at the bottom.  
> Attachments
> too. In many blog platforms tags are at the bottom as well. People  
> know
> this. If not, they can learn it.

What I'd like actually is not the actual content on top of course but  
an easy way to navigate to that content (info, attachments, comments,  
etc).
Right now we kind of have this already with the action toolbar but I  
have the feeling it can be improved and it doesn't have a link to the  
page info for example.

Here's a example:
http://confluence.atlassian.com/display/DOC/Confluence+2.8+Screen+and+Menu+Changes

If you're logged in then the Tools menu has more actions.

- One think I like is the link to view the latest change directly at  
the top (in the line that says who was the last modifier).
- Another nice thing is the little icon showing the attachment and the  
number of attachments

FOSWiki also does it with icons and I don't feel they're standing in  
the way of the content:
http://foswiki.org/

Last, Lauren't experiment on http://laurent.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/ModificationVM/ 
  shows everything at the top. I don't know how well or how badly it  
would work but it doesn't look too bad.

> WikiPatterns lists a lot of patterns that can push the wiki forward or
> backward, but most of them are about people, and not about the  
> placement
> of things in the UI. People should encourage each other to use tags  
> and
> comments; the fact that we push them higher on the page doesn't mean
> that people will start using them more often; it just annoys by  
> standing
> between the user and the content. And after I read the article and I'm
> at the bottom, I have to scroll back up to tag or rate it. Or should I
> tag a document before actually reading it?

I also don't want to clutter things. I hate clutter.

I'm not sure about tags at the top. Twiki does it but I don't like the  
way they've done it. I remember seeing somewhere where it was done in  
a non obtrusive way. however if we already have one line for the last  
updated it might be too much to have another one maybe. Lauren't page  
does it nicely also I think.

Thanks
-Vincent

> Anyway, I'd really like to hear more from our users on this topic.
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Re: [Proposal] XWiki 2.0 Skin

Sergiu Dumitriu-2
Vincent Massol wrote:

> On Aug 7, 2009, at 9:29 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:
>
>> Vincent Massol wrote:
>>> On Aug 7, 2009, at 7:13 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi devs,
>>>>
>>>> You can see the proposal for the new skin at
>>>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Skin20P1
>>>> Comments, opinions and implementation help are welcomed :)
>>> Future:
>>> * I'd like to see if there's a way to group tags at the top with the
>>> rest + potentially move all page information to the top somewhere
>> You can't have everything at the top. And I wouldn't like it. When I
>> come to a page, I want to see the content. "Content is King".  
>> Everybody
>> who ever used the Web knows that comments are at the bottom.  
>> Attachments
>> too. In many blog platforms tags are at the bottom as well. People  
>> know
>> this. If not, they can learn it.
>
> What I'd like actually is not the actual content on top of course but  
> an easy way to navigate to that content (info, attachments, comments,  
> etc).
> Right now we kind of have this already with the action toolbar but I  
> have the feeling it can be improved and it doesn't have a link to the  
> page info for example.
>
> Here's a example:
> http://confluence.atlassian.com/display/DOC/Confluence+2.8+Screen+and+Menu+Changes
>
> If you're logged in then the Tools menu has more actions.
>
> - One think I like is the link to view the latest change directly at  
> the top (in the line that says who was the last modifier).
> - Another nice thing is the little icon showing the attachment and the  
> number of attachments
>
> FOSWiki also does it with icons and I don't feel they're standing in  
> the way of the content:
> http://foswiki.org/

The main difference between Confluence/TWiki and XWiki is that they have
only links, while we actually display the information. Indeed, having
just the links to view comments/attachments/tags at the bottom would be
wrong. But we're actually displaying them, which is completely different
from putting a link in a toolbar. Thus, comparing the TWiki UI with ours
is like "apples and oranges".

> Last, Lauren't experiment on http://laurent.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/ModificationVM/ 
>   shows everything at the top. I don't know how well or how badly it  
> would work but it doesn't look too bad.

I don't know, I'm not too fond of it. It's invisible information that
appears only if you know how to make it visible. I am forced to click to
access it. For example the tags are a pretty important piece information
(that's why we're considering moving them at the top, to make it more
visible), yet I have to click on a label to actually see them. Not to
mention that they're unavailable without javascript.

Second, when this information appears, it blocks the main content. If we
were to put the comments in the same way, as a visitor I wouldn't notice
them, and when I open them up, I can't see the content anymore. How can
I comment if I can't see what I'm commenting about?

>> WikiPatterns lists a lot of patterns that can push the wiki forward or
>> backward, but most of them are about people, and not about the  
>> placement
>> of things in the UI. People should encourage each other to use tags  
>> and
>> comments; the fact that we push them higher on the page doesn't mean
>> that people will start using them more often; it just annoys by  
>> standing
>> between the user and the content. And after I read the article and I'm
>> at the bottom, I have to scroll back up to tag or rate it. Or should I
>> tag a document before actually reading it?
>
> I also don't want to clutter things. I hate clutter.
>
> I'm not sure about tags at the top. Twiki does it but I don't like the  
> way they've done it. I remember seeing somewhere where it was done in  
> a non obtrusive way. however if we already have one line for the last  
> updated it might be too much to have another one maybe. Lauren't page  
> does it nicely also I think.


--
Sergiu Dumitriu
http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
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Re: [Proposal] XWiki 2.0 Skin

Sergiu Dumitriu-2
In reply to this post by Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
Ecaterina Valica wrote:
> Hi devs,
>
> You can see the proposal for the new skin at
> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Skin20P1
> Comments, opinions and implementation help are welcomed :)

That looks light and clean, it's good to see a nice, simple look without
many decorations.

Some things are missing, though:
* there's no link to Administration;
* I see no way to switch to another language.

Also, some more improvements need to be included in this new skin, other
than just a lighter appearance. For instance, the menu needs to be
reorganized:
* PRINT has been a wrong term for a very long time, and needs to be
changed to EXPORT
* I'm not sure we need both VIEW and SHOW; maybe they could be combined?
VIEW: Document | Wiki code | ...
* WATCH is an entry for which the actual usage is ambiguous (at least in
my opinion). To make it more clear, I'd propose:
   ** to break the entries from the WATCH menu in 2: the one related to
the page stays in the page menu, while the "Watch list management" will
appear next to "Administration" (probably someplace at the top)
   ** to make it more clear whether the current document is being
watched or not, an empty or full star icon (symbol often used for
"favorites") can be placed next to the text.

--
Sergiu Dumitriu
http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
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Re: [Proposal] XWiki 2.0 Skin

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by Sergiu Dumitriu-2

On Aug 7, 2009, at 10:20 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:

> Vincent Massol wrote:
>> On Aug 7, 2009, at 9:29 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:
>>
>>> Vincent Massol wrote:
>>>> On Aug 7, 2009, at 7:13 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi devs,
>>>>>
>>>>> You can see the proposal for the new skin at
>>>>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Skin20P1
>>>>> Comments, opinions and implementation help are welcomed :)
>>>> Future:
>>>> * I'd like to see if there's a way to group tags at the top with  
>>>> the
>>>> rest + potentially move all page information to the top somewhere
>>> You can't have everything at the top. And I wouldn't like it. When I
>>> come to a page, I want to see the content. "Content is King".
>>> Everybody
>>> who ever used the Web knows that comments are at the bottom.
>>> Attachments
>>> too. In many blog platforms tags are at the bottom as well. People
>>> know
>>> this. If not, they can learn it.
>>
>> What I'd like actually is not the actual content on top of course but
>> an easy way to navigate to that content (info, attachments, comments,
>> etc).
>> Right now we kind of have this already with the action toolbar but I
>> have the feeling it can be improved and it doesn't have a link to the
>> page info for example.
>>
>> Here's a example:
>> http://confluence.atlassian.com/display/DOC/Confluence+2.8+Screen+and+Menu+Changes
>>
>> If you're logged in then the Tools menu has more actions.
>>
>> - One think I like is the link to view the latest change directly at
>> the top (in the line that says who was the last modifier).
>> - Another nice thing is the little icon showing the attachment and  
>> the
>> number of attachments
>>
>> FOSWiki also does it with icons and I don't feel they're standing in
>> the way of the content:
>> http://foswiki.org/
>
> The main difference between Confluence/TWiki and XWiki is that they  
> have
> only links, while we actually display the information. Indeed, having
> just the links to view comments/attachments/tags at the bottom would  
> be
> wrong. But we're actually displaying them, which is completely  
> different
> from putting a link in a toolbar. Thus, comparing the TWiki UI with  
> ours
> is like "apples and oranges".
>
>> Last, Lauren't experiment on http://laurent.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/ModificationVM/
>>  shows everything at the top. I don't know how well or how badly it
>> would work but it doesn't look too bad.
>
> I don't know, I'm not too fond of it. It's invisible information that
> appears only if you know how to make it visible. I am forced to  
> click to
> access it. For example the tags are a pretty important piece  
> information
> (that's why we're considering moving them at the top, to make it more
> visible), yet I have to click on a label to actually see them. Not to
> mention that they're unavailable without javascript.
>
> Second, when this information appears, it blocks the main content.  
> If we
> were to put the comments in the same way, as a visitor I wouldn't  
> notice
> them, and when I open them up, I can't see the content anymore. How  
> can
> I comment if I can't see what I'm commenting about?

I think I'd always keep comments and attachments at the bottom.

I don't have a strong opinion on all this, I'd just like that we don't  
discard this possibility when we make further proposals. In any case  
we're getting ahead of ourselves since the current proposal is only  
for XWiki 2.0 and doesn't include all this.... :)

The only thing that I currently find a bit strange is the new footer  
which creates a new zone. So basically we have 3 zones for page info:
- top of the doc with breadcrumb
- first footer with author + tags
- second footer with the tabs.

Thanks
-Vincent

>
>>> WikiPatterns lists a lot of patterns that can push the wiki  
>>> forward or
>>> backward, but most of them are about people, and not about the
>>> placement
>>> of things in the UI. People should encourage each other to use tags
>>> and
>>> comments; the fact that we push them higher on the page doesn't mean
>>> that people will start using them more often; it just annoys by
>>> standing
>>> between the user and the content. And after I read the article and  
>>> I'm
>>> at the bottom, I have to scroll back up to tag or rate it. Or  
>>> should I
>>> tag a document before actually reading it?
>>
>> I also don't want to clutter things. I hate clutter.
>>
>> I'm not sure about tags at the top. Twiki does it but I don't like  
>> the
>> way they've done it. I remember seeing somewhere where it was done in
>> a non obtrusive way. however if we already have one line for the last
>> updated it might be too much to have another one maybe. Lauren't page
>> does it nicely also I think.
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Re: [Proposal] XWiki 2.0 Skin

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by Sergiu Dumitriu-2

On Aug 7, 2009, at 10:20 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:

> Ecaterina Valica wrote:
>> Hi devs,
>>
>> You can see the proposal for the new skin at
>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Skin20P1
>> Comments, opinions and implementation help are welcomed :)
>
> That looks light and clean, it's good to see a nice, simple look  
> without
> many decorations.
>
> Some things are missing, though:
> * there's no link to Administration;
> * I see no way to switch to another language.
>
> Also, some more improvements need to be included in this new skin,  
> other
> than just a lighter appearance. For instance, the menu needs to be
> reorganized:
> * PRINT has been a wrong term for a very long time, and needs to be
> changed to EXPORT
> * I'm not sure we need both VIEW and SHOW; maybe they could be  
> combined?
> VIEW: Document | Wiki code | ...
> * WATCH is an entry for which the actual usage is ambiguous (at  
> least in
> my opinion). To make it more clear, I'd propose:
>   ** to break the entries from the WATCH menu in 2: the one related to
> the page stays in the page menu, while the "Watch list management"  
> will
> appear next to "Administration" (probably someplace at the top)
>   ** to make it more clear whether the current document is being
> watched or not, an empty or full star icon (symbol often used for
> "favorites") can be placed next to the text.

The office import entry is also strange in its current location.

I think JV had done some proposals on the toolbar entries at one  
point. JV?

Note that Cati's proposal was done not to change too many things from  
the current skin since it needs to be agreed and finalized in the 2.0  
time frame.

Thanks
-Vincent
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Re: [Proposal] XWiki 2.0 Skin

Guillaume Lerouge
Hi,

On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 10:32 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Aug 7, 2009, at 10:20 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:
>
> > Ecaterina Valica wrote:
> >> Hi devs,
> >>
> >> You can see the proposal for the new skin at
> >> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Skin20P1
> >> Comments, opinions and implementation help are welcomed :)
> >
> > That looks light and clean, it's good to see a nice, simple look
> > without
> > many decorations.
> >
> > Some things are missing, though:
> > * there's no link to Administration;
> > * I see no way to switch to another language.
>

I think Cati is aware of this. Both links would find a position somewhere at
the top right of the skin IIRC.

> Also, some more improvements need to be included in this new skin,
> > other
> > than just a lighter appearance. For instance, the menu needs to be
> > reorganized:
> > * PRINT has been a wrong term for a very long time, and needs to be
> > changed to EXPORT
> > * I'm not sure we need both VIEW and SHOW; maybe they could be
> > combined?
> > VIEW: Document | Wiki code | ...
> > * WATCH is an entry for which the actual usage is ambiguous (at
> > least in
> > my opinion). To make it more clear, I'd propose:
> >   ** to break the entries from the WATCH menu in 2: the one related to
> > the page stays in the page menu, while the "Watch list management"
> > will
> > appear next to "Administration" (probably someplace at the top)
> >   ** to make it more clear whether the current document is being
> > watched or not, an empty or full star icon (symbol often used for
> > "favorites") can be placed next to the text.
>
> The office import entry is also strange in its current location.
>
> I think JV had done some proposals on the toolbar entries at one
> point. JV?
>
> Note that Cati's proposal was done not to change too many things from
> the current skin since it needs to be agreed and finalized in the 2.0
> time frame.


We (Cati +JV + me) will write and send a couple proposals for a reworked
action bar to be included in the new skin ASAP.

Guillaume


> Thanks
> -Vincent
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>



--
Guillaume Lerouge
Product Manager - XWiki
Skype: wikibc
Twitter: glerouge
http://guillaumelerouge.com/
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Re: [Proposal] XWiki 2.0 Skin

Guillaume Lerouge
In reply to this post by vmassol
Hi,

On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Aug 7, 2009, at 10:20 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:
>
> > Vincent Massol wrote:
> >> On Aug 7, 2009, at 9:29 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:
> >>
> >>> Vincent Massol wrote:
> >>>> On Aug 7, 2009, at 7:13 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi devs,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You can see the proposal for the new skin at
> >>>>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Skin20P1
> >>>>> Comments, opinions and implementation help are welcomed :)
> >>>> Future:
> >>>> * I'd like to see if there's a way to group tags at the top with
> >>>> the
> >>>> rest + potentially move all page information to the top somewhere
> >>> You can't have everything at the top. And I wouldn't like it. When I
> >>> come to a page, I want to see the content. "Content is King".
> >>> Everybody
> >>> who ever used the Web knows that comments are at the bottom.
> >>> Attachments
> >>> too. In many blog platforms tags are at the bottom as well. People
> >>> know
> >>> this. If not, they can learn it.
> >>
> >> What I'd like actually is not the actual content on top of course but
> >> an easy way to navigate to that content (info, attachments, comments,
> >> etc).
> >> Right now we kind of have this already with the action toolbar but I
> >> have the feeling it can be improved and it doesn't have a link to the
> >> page info for example.
> >>
> >> Here's a example:
> >>
> http://confluence.atlassian.com/display/DOC/Confluence+2.8+Screen+and+Menu+Changes
> >>
> >> If you're logged in then the Tools menu has more actions.
> >>
> >> - One think I like is the link to view the latest change directly at
> >> the top (in the line that says who was the last modifier).
> >> - Another nice thing is the little icon showing the attachment and
> >> the
> >> number of attachments
> >>
> >> FOSWiki also does it with icons and I don't feel they're standing in
> >> the way of the content:
> >> http://foswiki.org/
> >
> > The main difference between Confluence/TWiki and XWiki is that they
> > have
> > only links, while we actually display the information. Indeed, having
> > just the links to view comments/attachments/tags at the bottom would
> > be
> > wrong. But we're actually displaying them, which is completely
> > different
> > from putting a link in a toolbar. Thus, comparing the TWiki UI with
> > ours
> > is like "apples and oranges".
> >
> >> Last, Lauren't experiment on
> http://laurent.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/ModificationVM/
> >>  shows everything at the top. I don't know how well or how badly it
> >> would work but it doesn't look too bad.
> >
> > I don't know, I'm not too fond of it. It's invisible information that
> > appears only if you know how to make it visible. I am forced to
> > click to
> > access it. For example the tags are a pretty important piece
> > information
> > (that's why we're considering moving them at the top, to make it more
> > visible), yet I have to click on a label to actually see them. Not to
> > mention that they're unavailable without javascript.
> >
> > Second, when this information appears, it blocks the main content.
> > If we
> > were to put the comments in the same way, as a visitor I wouldn't
> > notice
> > them, and when I open them up, I can't see the content anymore. How
> > can
> > I comment if I can't see what I'm commenting about?
>
> I think I'd always keep comments and attachments at the bottom.
>
> I don't have a strong opinion on all this, I'd just like that we don't
> discard this possibility when we make further proposals. In any case
> we're getting ahead of ourselves since the current proposal is only
> for XWiki 2.0 and doesn't include all this.... :)


One way to address this would be to display entries from the "view" menu by
default while in view mode (similar to what's done in edit mode) and to put
the number of comments and attachments next to menu entries in the action ->
they would thus act as quicklinks towards the bottom of the page and provide
useful information in an elegant fashion. I'll ask Cati if she can draft
something that we could assess. It might make the menu interaction a bit
weird though...


> The only thing that I currently find a bit strange is the new footer
> which creates a new zone. So basically we have 3 zones for page info:
> - top of the doc with breadcrumb
> - first footer with author + tags
> - second footer with the tabs.


Well, you end up with a content area with a header + footer that look the
same, and an additional area at the bottom with the comments, attachments,
history & information -> I personally find it clean / it doesn't shock me.
Let's see what others think :-)

Guillaume

Thanks

> -Vincent
>
> >
> >>> WikiPatterns lists a lot of patterns that can push the wiki
> >>> forward or
> >>> backward, but most of them are about people, and not about the
> >>> placement
> >>> of things in the UI. People should encourage each other to use tags
> >>> and
> >>> comments; the fact that we push them higher on the page doesn't mean
> >>> that people will start using them more often; it just annoys by
> >>> standing
> >>> between the user and the content. And after I read the article and
> >>> I'm
> >>> at the bottom, I have to scroll back up to tag or rate it. Or
> >>> should I
> >>> tag a document before actually reading it?
> >>
> >> I also don't want to clutter things. I hate clutter.
> >>
> >> I'm not sure about tags at the top. Twiki does it but I don't like
> >> the
> >> way they've done it. I remember seeing somewhere where it was done in
> >> a non obtrusive way. however if we already have one line for the last
> >> updated it might be too much to have another one maybe. Lauren't page
> >> does it nicely also I think.
> _______________________________________________
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>



--
Guillaume Lerouge
Product Manager - XWiki
Skype: wikibc
Twitter: glerouge
http://guillaumelerouge.com/
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Re: [Proposal] XWiki 2.0 Skin

Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
In reply to this post by vmassol
>
> What I'd like actually is not the actual content on top of course but
> an easy way to navigate to that content (info, attachments, comments,
> etc).


Right now you have an easy way to navigate to that content by using "Show"
in the action menu (links to Comments, Attachments, History, Information).
The problem with this submenu is that it's not intuitive and not well
placed. We have many actions in it and we don't know what are important and
what are helpfull. And here comes the discussions about redesigning the
information architecture in the menu.


>
> Right now we kind of have this already with the action toolbar but I
> have the feeling it can be improved and it doesn't have a link to the
> page info for example.
>
> Here's a example:
>
> http://confluence.atlassian.com/display/DOC/Confluence+2.8+Screen+and+Menu+Changes
>
> If you're logged in then the Tools menu has more actions.
>
> - One think I like is the link to view the latest change directly at
> the top (in the line that says who was the last modifier).
> - Another nice thing is the little icon showing the attachment and the
> number of attachments
>
> FOSWiki also does it with icons and I don't feel they're standing in
> the way of the content:
> http://foswiki.org/
>

The bad things about the examples is that they take you to other page to
show you that information and I don't like that. They take away the context.
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Re: [Proposal] XWiki 2.0 Skin

Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
In reply to this post by Sergiu Dumitriu-2
>
> > Last, Lauren't experiment on
> http://laurent.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/ModificationVM/
> >   shows everything at the top. I don't know how well or how badly it
> > would work but it doesn't look too bad.
>
> I don't know, I'm not too fond of it. It's invisible information that
> appears only if you know how to make it visible. I am forced to click to
> access it. For example the tags are a pretty important piece information
> (that's why we're considering moving them at the top, to make it more
> visible), yet I have to click on a label to actually see them. Not to
> mention that they're unavailable without javascript.
>
> Second, when this information appears, it blocks the main content. If we
> were to put the comments in the same way, as a visitor I wouldn't notice
> them, and when I open them up, I can't see the content anymore. How can
> I comment if I can't see what I'm commenting about?


I agree with Sergiu. It blocks the information and makes it in small little
blocks. I don't like popups.

Tags should be at the bottom. My question is: do you think "Created by"
should be displayed near the Tags or just put it in the "Information" tab?
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Re: [Proposal] XWiki 2.0 Skin

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)

On Aug 10, 2009, at 1:00 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:

>>
>> What I'd like actually is not the actual content on top of course but
>> an easy way to navigate to that content (info, attachments, comments,
>> etc).
>
>
> Right now you have an easy way to navigate to that content by using  
> "Show"
> in the action menu (links to Comments, Attachments, History,  
> Information).
> The problem with this submenu is that it's not intuitive and not well
> placed. We have many actions in it and we don't know what are  
> important and
> what are helpfull. And here comes the discussions about redesigning  
> the
> information architecture in the menu.

I agree.

>> Right now we kind of have this already with the action toolbar but I
>> have the feeling it can be improved and it doesn't have a link to the
>> page info for example.
>>
>> Here's a example:
>>
>> http://confluence.atlassian.com/display/DOC/Confluence+2.8+Screen+and+Menu+Changes
>>
>> If you're logged in then the Tools menu has more actions.
>>
>> - One think I like is the link to view the latest change directly at
>> the top (in the line that says who was the last modifier).
>> - Another nice thing is the little icon showing the attachment and  
>> the
>> number of attachments
>>
>> FOSWiki also does it with icons and I don't feel they're standing in
>> the way of the content:
>> http://foswiki.org/
>>
>
> The bad things about the examples is that they take you to other  
> page to
> show you that information and I don't like that. They take away the  
> context.

I agree but then it's also a question of how much you have to display.
If you look at the info page for confluence you'll see it has a lot of  
information in it.

-Vincent
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Re: [Proposal] XWiki 2.0 Skin

Jean-Vincent Drean-3
In reply to this post by Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Ecaterina Valica<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Second, when this information appears, it blocks the main content. If we
>> were to put the comments in the same way, as a visitor I wouldn't notice
>> them, and when I open them up, I can't see the content anymore. How can
>> I comment if I can't see what I'm commenting about?
>
> I agree with Sergiu. It blocks the information and makes it in small little
> blocks. I don't like popups.
>

Note that those popups were just a test, Laurent wanted to see what
it'd look like.
The last time we discussed it we agreed that it was better to have
anchors, by far.

Thanks,
JV.
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Re: [Proposal] XWiki 2.0 Skin

Sergiu Dumitriu-2
In reply to this post by vmassol
Vincent Massol wrote:

> On Aug 10, 2009, at 1:00 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
>
>>> What I'd like actually is not the actual content on top of course but
>>> an easy way to navigate to that content (info, attachments, comments,
>>> etc).
>>
>> Right now you have an easy way to navigate to that content by using  
>> "Show"
>> in the action menu (links to Comments, Attachments, History,  
>> Information).
>> The problem with this submenu is that it's not intuitive and not well
>> placed. We have many actions in it and we don't know what are  
>> important and
>> what are helpfull. And here comes the discussions about redesigning  
>> the
>> information architecture in the menu.
>
> I agree.
>
>>> Right now we kind of have this already with the action toolbar but I
>>> have the feeling it can be improved and it doesn't have a link to the
>>> page info for example.
>>>
>>> Here's a example:
>>>
>>> http://confluence.atlassian.com/display/DOC/Confluence+2.8+Screen+and+Menu+Changes
>>>
>>> If you're logged in then the Tools menu has more actions.
>>>
>>> - One think I like is the link to view the latest change directly at
>>> the top (in the line that says who was the last modifier).
>>> - Another nice thing is the little icon showing the attachment and  
>>> the
>>> number of attachments
>>>
>>> FOSWiki also does it with icons and I don't feel they're standing in
>>> the way of the content:
>>> http://foswiki.org/
>>>
>> The bad things about the examples is that they take you to other  
>> page to
>> show you that information and I don't like that. They take away the  
>> context.
>
> I agree but then it's also a question of how much you have to display.
> If you look at the info page for confluence you'll see it has a lot of  
> information in it.

And that is bad in two ways.

- I think that we display more information than they do, so they're not
better than us

- Personally, I think that their interface sucks big time. There is no
clear separation of the content. Everything is a big heap of text, all
looking the same, so it's hard to spot something in there. This shows
the true value of using margins and paddings correctly. So they are much
worse than us.

--
Sergiu Dumitriu
http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
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Re: [Proposal] XWiki 2.0 Skin

Sergiu Dumitriu-2
In reply to this post by Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
Ecaterina Valica wrote:

>>> Last, Lauren't experiment on
>> http://laurent.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/ModificationVM/
>>>   shows everything at the top. I don't know how well or how badly it
>>> would work but it doesn't look too bad.
>> I don't know, I'm not too fond of it. It's invisible information that
>> appears only if you know how to make it visible. I am forced to click to
>> access it. For example the tags are a pretty important piece information
>> (that's why we're considering moving them at the top, to make it more
>> visible), yet I have to click on a label to actually see them. Not to
>> mention that they're unavailable without javascript.
>>
>> Second, when this information appears, it blocks the main content. If we
>> were to put the comments in the same way, as a visitor I wouldn't notice
>> them, and when I open them up, I can't see the content anymore. How can
>> I comment if I can't see what I'm commenting about?
>
>
> I agree with Sergiu. It blocks the information and makes it in small little
> blocks. I don't like popups.
>
> Tags should be at the bottom. My question is: do you think "Created by"
> should be displayed near the Tags or just put it in the "Information" tab?

IMO, "created by" is a pretty important information, maybe more that
"last modified by". The information tab is hidden by default, so I think
  that it's better to put it near the tags.

--
Sergiu Dumitriu
http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
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Re: [Proposal] XWiki 2.0 Skin

Guillaume Lerouge
Hi,

On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 4:19 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ecaterina Valica wrote:
> >>> Last, Lauren't experiment on
> >> http://laurent.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/ModificationVM/
> >>>   shows everything at the top. I don't know how well or how badly it
> >>> would work but it doesn't look too bad.
> >> I don't know, I'm not too fond of it. It's invisible information that
> >> appears only if you know how to make it visible. I am forced to click to
> >> access it. For example the tags are a pretty important piece information
> >> (that's why we're considering moving them at the top, to make it more
> >> visible), yet I have to click on a label to actually see them. Not to
> >> mention that they're unavailable without javascript.
> >>
> >> Second, when this information appears, it blocks the main content. If we
> >> were to put the comments in the same way, as a visitor I wouldn't notice
> >> them, and when I open them up, I can't see the content anymore. How can
> >> I comment if I can't see what I'm commenting about?
> >
> >
> > I agree with Sergiu. It blocks the information and makes it in small
> little
> > blocks. I don't like popups.
> >
> > Tags should be at the bottom. My question is: do you think "Created by"
> > should be displayed near the Tags or just put it in the "Information"
> tab?
>
> IMO, "created by" is a pretty important information, maybe more that
> "last modified by". The information tab is hidden by default, so I think
>  that it's better to put it near the tags.


I agree with Sergiu, it's better to have the "created by" at the bottom of
the content rather than in the Information tab.

Guillaume


> --
> Sergiu Dumitriu
> http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>



--
Guillaume Lerouge
Product Manager - XWiki
Skype: wikibc
Twitter: glerouge
http://guillaumelerouge.com/
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