Replace the Mailing Lists by a Forum

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Replace the Mailing Lists by a Forum

Guillaume Delhumeau
Hi everybody.

Today I would like to speak about an issue that annoys me for years.

We are working on a tool whose one of the objectives is to stop scattering
information in multiple places. It's even the main argument explained in
the video integrated on the home page of XWiki:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QTWrZ7OfzI.

But on the other hand, we, developers of XWiki, do the opposite in
practice. We discuss on mailing lists that are archived on Markmail, we
report issues on Jira and we do investigations on design.xwiki.org, and I
don't even count Github. A newcomer have to understand the role and the
functioning of each tool. It's quite complex.

I don't think we should give up Jira because it is the best tool available
in its domain and there is no serious competitor.

However, concerning the mailing lists, it's very different. Let me list
some problems:

- We recently had troubles with some emails that were lost because of
subtleties in the email protocols.
- Someone who just want to discuss once have to register to the mailing
list and then receive thousands of emails every year.
- Some emails are lost in the SPAM catchers.
- You cannot use serious text formatting. As far as I know, HTML is not
supported on the ML nor in Markmail.
- You cannot send attachments.
- People looking at messages on Markmail do not always understand how to
answer (I've seen some people trying to answer directly on Markmail because
they believe it WAS the messaging tool).
- This is "so 90s"!

It still have some advantages:
- Users can use their beloved email client.
- Mail lists are quite standards in the Open Source world.

However it does not balance the drawbacks.

To fix this, I see several options:

A - Evaluate and improve the Forum Application (
http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Extension/ForumApplication) and
use our own Dog Food.
B - If it is too costly, use any PHP forum that the Open Source world have.
phpBB for example is the common choice. However, it does not centralize
everything but it replaces the couple ML/Markmail and these tools are very
well-known.
C - Use JIRA tickets with a certain label for development discussions
because sometime the debates are spread between issues and threads, so it
could be better to have everything directly on the issue. (FTR I don't
think JIRA is the right tool for that but I wanted to list all options).

This is not an action plan but a first step in that direction. Let me hear
what you think.

Thanks,
Guillaume
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Re: Replace the Mailing Lists by a Forum

Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
I don't think using a Forum would make much improvements. Yes, maybe it
would be easier for new contributors, but for the old ones (accustomed with
a certain way to communicate) would be harder.

In practice we won't be able to remove the mails since it's the core of the
communication. All the JIRA changes send e-mails, every commit sends an
e-mail, build, etc.
Now I agree that regarding design proposals (and one example is
http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-13070) I found it also hard to follow
the conversation since there were answers and proposals on the mailinglist
and in parallel on the JIRA.

We are using the mails for more purposes:
- Communication (of releases, events): instead of using creating a blog
post
- Votes: you cannot actually create JIRA entries for votes, since this is
not development related
- Brainstorming: again cannot create JIRA since there is nothing final,
just requesting opinions. Usually people use chats for this, but in mails
we have archives and it's async.
- Design proposals: here it's not ideal to create layouts in mails, since
there is no advanced styling support and we don't have additional macros
like gallery, etc. that can control the way we make the proposal. Other
organizations use GitHub dedicated Design issues for this topic, but if we
were to start using GitHub we would then question the usage of JIRA.
Design.xwiki.org is needed since it collects all the topics on design +
allows prototyping areas + it's dedicated to the topic.
- other?

Regarding your options:
A - I don't think I would like to use the app for this purpose + we don't
have the concept of NEW/Not read + I would still need mail notifications
B - php? :) still not thrilled with the change
C - this would be interesting, to try to have all things in one place. We
would need to add more issue types or separate somehow the ideas and tasks
from the normal development issues. But still JIRA is not ideal when it
comes to design proposals, since it's so hard to know what is the latest
image we need to discuss and we cannot really delete/hide old images.

So, I understand the issue and I feel it too sometimes (depending on the
type of mail - but mostly for design proposals), but I don't know if using
a Forum is the solution.

Thanks,
Caty

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 1:13 PM, Guillaume Delhumeau <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi everybody.
>
> Today I would like to speak about an issue that annoys me for years.
>
> We are working on a tool whose one of the objectives is to stop scattering
> information in multiple places. It's even the main argument explained in
> the video integrated on the home page of XWiki:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QTWrZ7OfzI.
>
> But on the other hand, we, developers of XWiki, do the opposite in
> practice. We discuss on mailing lists that are archived on Markmail, we
> report issues on Jira and we do investigations on design.xwiki.org, and I
> don't even count Github. A newcomer have to understand the role and the
> functioning of each tool. It's quite complex.
>
> I don't think we should give up Jira because it is the best tool available
> in its domain and there is no serious competitor.
>
> However, concerning the mailing lists, it's very different. Let me list
> some problems:
>
> - We recently had troubles with some emails that were lost because of
> subtleties in the email protocols.
> - Someone who just want to discuss once have to register to the mailing
> list and then receive thousands of emails every year.
> - Some emails are lost in the SPAM catchers.
> - You cannot use serious text formatting. As far as I know, HTML is not
> supported on the ML nor in Markmail.
> - You cannot send attachments.
> - People looking at messages on Markmail do not always understand how to
> answer (I've seen some people trying to answer directly on Markmail because
> they believe it WAS the messaging tool).
> - This is "so 90s"!
>
> It still have some advantages:
> - Users can use their beloved email client.
> - Mail lists are quite standards in the Open Source world.
>
> However it does not balance the drawbacks.
>
> To fix this, I see several options:
>
> A - Evaluate and improve the Forum Application (
> http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Extension/ForumApplication) and
> use our own Dog Food.
> B - If it is too costly, use any PHP forum that the Open Source world have.
> phpBB for example is the common choice. However, it does not centralize
> everything but it replaces the couple ML/Markmail and these tools are very
> well-known.
> C - Use JIRA tickets with a certain label for development discussions
> because sometime the debates are spread between issues and threads, so it
> could be better to have everything directly on the issue. (FTR I don't
> think JIRA is the right tool for that but I wanted to list all options).
>
> This is not an action plan but a first step in that direction. Let me hear
> what you think.
>
> Thanks,
> Guillaume
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: Replace the Mailing Lists by a Forum

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by Guillaume Delhumeau

> On 22 Nov 2016, at 12:13, Guillaume Delhumeau <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi everybody.
>
> Today I would like to speak about an issue that annoys me for years.
>
> We are working on a tool whose one of the objectives is to stop scattering
> information in multiple places. It's even the main argument explained in
> the video integrated on the home page of XWiki:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QTWrZ7OfzI.
>
> But on the other hand, we, developers of XWiki, do the opposite in
> practice. We discuss on mailing lists that are archived on Markmail, we
> report issues on Jira and we do investigations on design.xwiki.org, and I
> don't even count Github.

Honestly I don’t see the relationship between the tool we develop and how it’s developed. These are completely separate things!

Using a car is pretty easy but creating one is hard. That’s normal and expected :)

Now if your point is to brainstorm about how we could improve the tools we use to develop, sure, let’s brainstorm! :)

I like that we have several tool such as:
- one tool for the issue tracker (jira)
- one tool for proposal/decisions (mailing list and nabble forum - bidirectional)
- one tool for archiving discussions (markmail)
- one tool for design proposals (wiki)
- one tool for storing code (github)
- one tool for translations (l10n)
- one tool for live discussions (IRC)
- one tool for documentation (xwiki.org)
- one tool for quality reports (sonar.xwiki.org)
- one tool for CI (jenkins at ci.xwiki.org)
- one tool for storing our artifacts (nexus, at nexus.xwiki.org)
- one tool for storing xwiki extensions (extensions.xwiki.org)

Is that complex? Yes. Is development easy? No. Do we want to do it well? Yes.

They’re all required! All the tools are listed here BTW: http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/DevelopmentPractices#HGeneralDevelopmentFlow :)

Now we can discuss and decide if each of these tools is the best. For example replacing some ML with a forum other than Nabble; don’t forget that we do have a forum at http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/Forum. The main problem I see with Nabble is that it requires 2 sign ups.

> A newcomer have to understand the role and the
> functioning of each tool. It's quite complex.
>
> I don't think we should give up Jira because it is the best tool available
> in its domain and there is no serious competitor.
>
> However, concerning the mailing lists, it's very different. Let me list
> some problems:
>
> - We recently had troubles with some emails that were lost because of
> subtleties in the email protocols.
> - Someone who just want to discuss once have to register to the mailing
> list and then receive thousands of emails every year.
> - Some emails are lost in the SPAM catchers.
> - You cannot use serious text formatting. As far as I know, HTML is not
> supported on the ML nor in Markmail.
> - You cannot send attachments.
> - People looking at messages on Markmail do not always understand how to
> answer (I've seen some people trying to answer directly on Markmail because
> they believe it WAS the messaging tool).
> - This is "so 90s"!
>
> It still have some advantages:
> - Users can use their beloved email client.
> - Mail lists are quite standards in the Open Source world.
>
> However it does not balance the drawbacks.
>
> To fix this, I see several options:

Also see these discussion threads from the past:
* "Do we need a forum?: http://markmail.org/message/gbdnyb7jbh4ha5ja
* "Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software”: http://markmail.org/message/dyfhqyuug7xgjru2
* Jeremie worked on a mail archiving app: see http://markmail.org/message/dyfhqyuug7xgjru2 and http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Extension/MailArchive+Application
 

> A - Evaluate and improve the Forum Application (
> http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Extension/ForumApplication) and
> use our own Dog Food.
> B - If it is too costly, use any PHP forum that the Open Source world have.
> phpBB for example is the common choice. However, it does not centralize
> everything but it replaces the couple ML/Markmail and these tools are very
> well-known.
> C - Use JIRA tickets with a certain label for development discussions
> because sometime the debates are spread between issues and threads, so it
> could be better to have everything directly on the issue. (FTR I don't
> think JIRA is the right tool for that but I wanted to list all options).
>
> This is not an action plan but a first step in that direction. Let me hear
> what you think.

My global POV (will reply with more details later on, need to finish something first):

We need a solution that’s not too costly (in term of development, maintenance, etc). At first sight, I’d say it’s not our objective to develop a forum (nor an issue tracker) and whatever solution we develop would definitely not be a best of breed solution. Personally I like best of breed solutions.

Note that In the other threads I mentioned there were other solutions proposed such as stackoverflow, etc.

I think the first thing to do Guillaume is to read the previous threads and come up with a design page on design.xwiki.org about the features (user stories, use cases) we’d like to have in a our tool to replace the ML.

Thanks
-Vincent

> Thanks,
> Guillaume
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Re: Replace the Mailing Lists by a Forum

Aaron MacSween
In reply to this post by Guillaume Delhumeau
George published a blog post about this
<http://www.xwiki.com/en/Blog/why%2Demail%2Dchains%2Dare%2Dnot%2Dproductive>


Le 16-11-22 à 12:13 PM, Guillaume Delhumeau a écrit :

> Hi everybody.
>
> Today I would like to speak about an issue that annoys me for years.
>
> We are working on a tool whose one of the objectives is to stop scattering
> information in multiple places. It's even the main argument explained in
> the video integrated on the home page of XWiki:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QTWrZ7OfzI.
>
> But on the other hand, we, developers of XWiki, do the opposite in
> practice. We discuss on mailing lists that are archived on Markmail, we
> report issues on Jira and we do investigations on design.xwiki.org, and I
> don't even count Github. A newcomer have to understand the role and the
> functioning of each tool. It's quite complex.
>
> I don't think we should give up Jira because it is the best tool available
> in its domain and there is no serious competitor.
>
> However, concerning the mailing lists, it's very different. Let me list
> some problems:
>
> - We recently had troubles with some emails that were lost because of
> subtleties in the email protocols.
> - Someone who just want to discuss once have to register to the mailing
> list and then receive thousands of emails every year.
> - Some emails are lost in the SPAM catchers.
> - You cannot use serious text formatting. As far as I know, HTML is not
> supported on the ML nor in Markmail.
> - You cannot send attachments.
> - People looking at messages on Markmail do not always understand how to
> answer (I've seen some people trying to answer directly on Markmail because
> they believe it WAS the messaging tool).
> - This is "so 90s"!
>
> It still have some advantages:
> - Users can use their beloved email client.
> - Mail lists are quite standards in the Open Source world.
>
> However it does not balance the drawbacks.
>
> To fix this, I see several options:
>
> A - Evaluate and improve the Forum Application (
> http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Extension/ForumApplication) and
> use our own Dog Food.
> B - If it is too costly, use any PHP forum that the Open Source world have.
> phpBB for example is the common choice. However, it does not centralize
> everything but it replaces the couple ML/Markmail and these tools are very
> well-known.
> C - Use JIRA tickets with a certain label for development discussions
> because sometime the debates are spread between issues and threads, so it
> could be better to have everything directly on the issue. (FTR I don't
> think JIRA is the right tool for that but I wanted to list all options).
>
> This is not an action plan but a first step in that direction. Let me hear
> what you think.
>
> Thanks,
> Guillaume
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs


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Re: Replace the Mailing Lists by a Forum

vmassol
Administrator
And other guys also posted blogs posts on forum vs ML, for ex:
https://www.freelock.com/blog/john-locke/2010-03/mailing-list-or-forum-theory

Thanks
-Vincent

> On 22 Nov 2016, at 13:46, Aaron MacSween <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> George published a blog post about this
> <http://www.xwiki.com/en/Blog/why%2Demail%2Dchains%2Dare%2Dnot%2Dproductive>
>
>
> Le 16-11-22 à 12:13 PM, Guillaume Delhumeau a écrit :
>> Hi everybody.
>>
>> Today I would like to speak about an issue that annoys me for years.
>>
>> We are working on a tool whose one of the objectives is to stop scattering
>> information in multiple places. It's even the main argument explained in
>> the video integrated on the home page of XWiki:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QTWrZ7OfzI.
>>
>> But on the other hand, we, developers of XWiki, do the opposite in
>> practice. We discuss on mailing lists that are archived on Markmail, we
>> report issues on Jira and we do investigations on design.xwiki.org, and I
>> don't even count Github. A newcomer have to understand the role and the
>> functioning of each tool. It's quite complex.
>>
>> I don't think we should give up Jira because it is the best tool available
>> in its domain and there is no serious competitor.
>>
>> However, concerning the mailing lists, it's very different. Let me list
>> some problems:
>>
>> - We recently had troubles with some emails that were lost because of
>> subtleties in the email protocols.
>> - Someone who just want to discuss once have to register to the mailing
>> list and then receive thousands of emails every year.
>> - Some emails are lost in the SPAM catchers.
>> - You cannot use serious text formatting. As far as I know, HTML is not
>> supported on the ML nor in Markmail.
>> - You cannot send attachments.
>> - People looking at messages on Markmail do not always understand how to
>> answer (I've seen some people trying to answer directly on Markmail because
>> they believe it WAS the messaging tool).
>> - This is "so 90s"!
>>
>> It still have some advantages:
>> - Users can use their beloved email client.
>> - Mail lists are quite standards in the Open Source world.
>>
>> However it does not balance the drawbacks.
>>
>> To fix this, I see several options:
>>
>> A - Evaluate and improve the Forum Application (
>> http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Extension/ForumApplication) and
>> use our own Dog Food.
>> B - If it is too costly, use any PHP forum that the Open Source world have.
>> phpBB for example is the common choice. However, it does not centralize
>> everything but it replaces the couple ML/Markmail and these tools are very
>> well-known.
>> C - Use JIRA tickets with a certain label for development discussions
>> because sometime the debates are spread between issues and threads, so it
>> could be better to have everything directly on the issue. (FTR I don't
>> think JIRA is the right tool for that but I wanted to list all options).
>>
>> This is not an action plan but a first step in that direction. Let me hear
>> what you think.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Guillaume
>> _______________________________________________
>> devs mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

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Re: Replace the Mailing Lists by a Forum

Guillaume Delhumeau
In reply to this post by vmassol
2016-11-22 13:16 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:

>
> > On 22 Nov 2016, at 12:13, Guillaume Delhumeau <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi everybody.
> >
> > Today I would like to speak about an issue that annoys me for years.
> >
> > We are working on a tool whose one of the objectives is to stop
> scattering
> > information in multiple places. It's even the main argument explained in
> > the video integrated on the home page of XWiki:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QTWrZ7OfzI.
> >
> > But on the other hand, we, developers of XWiki, do the opposite in
> > practice. We discuss on mailing lists that are archived on Markmail, we
> > report issues on Jira and we do investigations on design.xwiki.org, and
> I
> > don't even count Github.
>
> Honestly I don’t see the relationship between the tool we develop and how
> it’s developed. These are completely separate things!
>

We develop a tool that centralize information and we don't use it to
centralize our own informations, except documentation.


>
> Using a car is pretty easy but creating one is hard. That’s normal and
> expected :)
>

Yes but if you also create a tool to help you creating a car and you don't
use it yourself, you're giving a bad image to your product.


>
> Now if your point is to brainstorm about how we could improve the tools we
> use to develop, sure, let’s brainstorm! :)
>

Yes, that is what really matters.


>
> I like that we have several tool such as:
> - one tool for the issue tracker (jira)
> - one tool for proposal/decisions (mailing list and nabble forum -
> bidirectional)
> - one tool for archiving discussions (markmail)
> - one tool for design proposals (wiki)
> - one tool for storing code (github)
> - one tool for translations (l10n)
> - one tool for live discussions (IRC)
> - one tool for documentation (xwiki.org)
> - one tool for quality reports (sonar.xwiki.org)
> - one tool for CI (jenkins at ci.xwiki.org)
> - one tool for storing our artifacts (nexus, at nexus.xwiki.org)
> - one tool for storing xwiki extensions (extensions.xwiki.org)
>
> Is that complex? Yes. Is development easy? No. Do we want to do it well?
> Yes.
>

OK so let's forget my point about centralization and focus at the list of
problems I have mentioned.


> They’re all required! All the tools are listed here BTW:
> http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/DevelopmentPractices#
> HGeneralDevelopmentFlow :)
>
> Now we can discuss and decide if each of these tools is the best. For
> example replacing some ML with a forum other than Nabble; don’t forget that
> we do have a forum at http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/Forum.
> The main problem I see with Nabble is that it requires 2 sign ups.
>

That's a pretty big one.


>
> > A newcomer have to understand the role and the
> > functioning of each tool. It's quite complex.
> >
> > I don't think we should give up Jira because it is the best tool
> available
> > in its domain and there is no serious competitor.
> >
> > However, concerning the mailing lists, it's very different. Let me list
> > some problems:
> >
> > - We recently had troubles with some emails that were lost because of
> > subtleties in the email protocols.
> > - Someone who just want to discuss once have to register to the mailing
> > list and then receive thousands of emails every year.
> > - Some emails are lost in the SPAM catchers.
> > - You cannot use serious text formatting. As far as I know, HTML is not
> > supported on the ML nor in Markmail.
> > - You cannot send attachments.
> > - People looking at messages on Markmail do not always understand how to
> > answer (I've seen some people trying to answer directly on Markmail
> because
> > they believe it WAS the messaging tool).
> > - This is "so 90s"!
> >
> > It still have some advantages:
> > - Users can use their beloved email client.
> > - Mail lists are quite standards in the Open Source world.
> >
> > However it does not balance the drawbacks.
> >
> > To fix this, I see several options:
>
> Also see these discussion threads from the past:
> * "Do we need a forum?: http://markmail.org/message/gbdnyb7jbh4ha5ja
> * "Drop mailing lists in favor of a forum software”:
> http://markmail.org/message/dyfhqyuug7xgjru2
> * Jeremie worked on a mail archiving app: see http://markmail.org/message/
> dyfhqyuug7xgjru2 and http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Extension/
> MailArchive+Application
>
> > A - Evaluate and improve the Forum Application (
> > http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Extension/ForumApplication)
> and
> > use our own Dog Food.
> > B - If it is too costly, use any PHP forum that the Open Source world
> have.
> > phpBB for example is the common choice. However, it does not centralize
> > everything but it replaces the couple ML/Markmail and these tools are
> very
> > well-known.
> > C - Use JIRA tickets with a certain label for development discussions
> > because sometime the debates are spread between issues and threads, so it
> > could be better to have everything directly on the issue. (FTR I don't
> > think JIRA is the right tool for that but I wanted to list all options).
> >
> > This is not an action plan but a first step in that direction. Let me
> hear
> > what you think.
>
> My global POV (will reply with more details later on, need to finish
> something first):
>
> We need a solution that’s not too costly (in term of development,
> maintenance, etc). At first sight, I’d say it’s not our objective to
> develop a forum (nor an issue tracker) and whatever solution we develop
> would definitely not be a best of breed solution. Personally I like best of
> breed solutions.
>

So a dedicated forum would definitively be a better tool than a ML :)


>
> Note that In the other threads I mentioned there were other solutions
> proposed such as stackoverflow, etc.
>
> I think the first thing to do Guillaume is to read the previous threads
> and come up with a design page on design.xwiki.org about the features
> (user stories, use cases) we’d like to have in a our tool to replace the ML.
>

You are right. I am going to read the propositions and the arguments of
each party to understand the problem.


>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> > Thanks,
> > Guillaume
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>



--
Guillaume Delhumeau ([hidden email])
Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
Committer on the XWiki.org project
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Re: Replace the Mailing Lists by a Forum

vmassol
Administrator

> On 22 Nov 2016, at 14:18, Guillaume Delhumeau <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> 2016-11-22 13:16 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:
>
>>
>>> On 22 Nov 2016, at 12:13, Guillaume Delhumeau <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi everybody.
>>>
>>> Today I would like to speak about an issue that annoys me for years.
>>>
>>> We are working on a tool whose one of the objectives is to stop
>> scattering
>>> information in multiple places. It's even the main argument explained in
>>> the video integrated on the home page of XWiki:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QTWrZ7OfzI.
>>>
>>> But on the other hand, we, developers of XWiki, do the opposite in
>>> practice. We discuss on mailing lists that are archived on Markmail, we
>>> report issues on Jira and we do investigations on design.xwiki.org, and
>> I
>>> don't even count Github.
>>
>> Honestly I don’t see the relationship between the tool we develop and how
>> it’s developed. These are completely separate things!
>>
>
> We develop a tool that centralize information and we don't use it to
> centralize our own informations, except documentation.
>
>
>>
>> Using a car is pretty easy but creating one is hard. That’s normal and
>> expected :)
>>
>
> Yes but if you also create a tool to help you creating a car and you don't
> use it yourself,

XWiki is not a tool to help develop software. It can be used for some parts of the software development process (the documentation part, the requirements part, etc). But for example it won’t help you store your sources files and it won’t help you develop your Java Code (your IDE will though).

> you're giving a bad image to your product.

I’d never promote XWiki as a tool to replace any of the tools I’ve mentioned in my previous reply. If you do, you’re doing a disservice to your users.

XWiki is not:
- a forum
- a CI
- a SCM
- a chat tool
- a mailing list
- etc.

Each of these tools have a purpose and it’s certainly not that of XWiki.

For example a forum is a place to discuss. A wiki is not a place to discuss (it can be as an edge case but it’s certainly not a best of breed tool for that). A wiki is first and foremost a place where you can aggregate knowledge.

So yes we should use XWiki to aggregate knowledge And this is exactly what we do on xwiki.org and design.xwiki.org.

[snip]

Thanks
-Vincent







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Re: Replace the Mailing Lists by a Forum

Caleb James DeLisle-3
If I might join in and ask, what should XWiki be used for ?

On 22/11/16 14:39, Vincent Massol wrote:
> I’d never promote XWiki as a tool to replace any of the tools I’ve mentioned in my previous reply. If you do, you’re doing a disservice to your users.
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Re: Replace the Mailing Lists by a Forum

Guillaume Delhumeau
In reply to this post by vmassol
2016-11-22 14:39 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:

>
> > On 22 Nov 2016, at 14:18, Guillaume Delhumeau <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > 2016-11-22 13:16 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >>
> >>> On 22 Nov 2016, at 12:13, Guillaume Delhumeau <
> >> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi everybody.
> >>>
> >>> Today I would like to speak about an issue that annoys me for years.
> >>>
> >>> We are working on a tool whose one of the objectives is to stop
> >> scattering
> >>> information in multiple places. It's even the main argument explained
> in
> >>> the video integrated on the home page of XWiki:
> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QTWrZ7OfzI.
> >>>
> >>> But on the other hand, we, developers of XWiki, do the opposite in
> >>> practice. We discuss on mailing lists that are archived on Markmail, we
> >>> report issues on Jira and we do investigations on design.xwiki.org,
> and
> >> I
> >>> don't even count Github.
> >>
> >> Honestly I don’t see the relationship between the tool we develop and
> how
> >> it’s developed. These are completely separate things!
> >>
> >
> > We develop a tool that centralize information and we don't use it to
> > centralize our own informations, except documentation.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Using a car is pretty easy but creating one is hard. That’s normal and
> >> expected :)
> >>
> >
> > Yes but if you also create a tool to help you creating a car and you
> don't
> > use it yourself,
>
> XWiki is not a tool to help develop software. It can be used for some
> parts of the software development process (the documentation part, the
> requirements part, etc). But for example it won’t help you store your
> sources files and it won’t help you develop your Java Code (your IDE will
> though).
>

I completely agree and there is no discord on this.

But I still believe that if we promote our tool as a better alternative for
emails and we keep sending brainstorm, votes, news, we're not giving a
consistent signal.

Just look at the video:


> * Share your ideas & knowledge, promote collective intelligence


Your answer is ML is the best breed for that...


>
> > you're giving a bad image to your product.
>
> I’d never promote XWiki as a tool to replace any of the tools I’ve
> mentioned in my previous reply. If you do, you’re doing a disservice to
> your users.
>
> XWiki is not:
> - a forum
> - a CI
> - a SCM
> - a chat tool
> - a mailing list
> - etc.
>
> Each of these tools have a purpose and it’s certainly not that of XWiki.
>
> For example a forum is a place to discuss. A wiki is not a place to
> discuss (it can be as an edge case but it’s certainly not a best of breed
> tool for that). A wiki is first and foremost a place where you can
> aggregate knowledge.
>
> So yes we should use XWiki to aggregate knowledge And this is exactly what
> we do on xwiki.org and design.xwiki.org.
>
> [snip]
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>



--
Guillaume Delhumeau ([hidden email])
Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
Committer on the XWiki.org project
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Re: Replace the Mailing Lists by a Forum

vmassol
Administrator

> On 22 Nov 2016, at 15:03, Guillaume Delhumeau <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> 2016-11-22 14:39 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:
>
>>
>>> On 22 Nov 2016, at 14:18, Guillaume Delhumeau <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> 2016-11-22 13:16 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 22 Nov 2016, at 12:13, Guillaume Delhumeau <
>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi everybody.
>>>>>
>>>>> Today I would like to speak about an issue that annoys me for years.
>>>>>
>>>>> We are working on a tool whose one of the objectives is to stop
>>>> scattering
>>>>> information in multiple places. It's even the main argument explained
>> in
>>>>> the video integrated on the home page of XWiki:
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QTWrZ7OfzI.
>>>>>
>>>>> But on the other hand, we, developers of XWiki, do the opposite in
>>>>> practice. We discuss on mailing lists that are archived on Markmail, we
>>>>> report issues on Jira and we do investigations on design.xwiki.org,
>> and
>>>> I
>>>>> don't even count Github.
>>>>
>>>> Honestly I don’t see the relationship between the tool we develop and
>> how
>>>> it’s developed. These are completely separate things!
>>>>
>>>
>>> We develop a tool that centralize information and we don't use it to
>>> centralize our own informations, except documentation.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Using a car is pretty easy but creating one is hard. That’s normal and
>>>> expected :)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes but if you also create a tool to help you creating a car and you
>> don't
>>> use it yourself,
>>
>> XWiki is not a tool to help develop software. It can be used for some
>> parts of the software development process (the documentation part, the
>> requirements part, etc). But for example it won’t help you store your
>> sources files and it won’t help you develop your Java Code (your IDE will
>> though).
>>
>
> I completely agree and there is no discord on this.
>
> But I still believe that if we promote our tool as a better alternative for
> emails and we keep sending brainstorm, votes, news, we're not giving a
> consistent signal.

I’m not sure I agree that a wiki (xwiki or any wiki) should replace email.

I see a wiki as a way to extract pure knowledge from their temporary places (irc, mailing lists, etc) into a place where it can be aggregated and augmented, representing the sum of knowledge on a topic.

So, a wiki is a good alternative for replacing knowledge stored in emails but emails and mailing lists are better for asynchronous interactions. If you use comments if a wiki to achieve this then you’re just using emails too (since you’re going to notify that a comment has been posted and you’ll send an email and then users can respond to email and then you get the same problems you have with email, ie you don’t have a single summary of the knowledge ;)).

BTW I put forums in the same category as emails for organizing information.

> Just look at the video:
>
>
>> * Share your ideas & knowledge, promote collective intelligence
>
>
> Your answer is ML is the best breed for that…

Where did  I say that? :)

Wikis are the best for knowledge aggregation and collective intelligence for sure.

But development is not just about that. It’s also about discussing and reaching conclusions and agreements.

Thanks
-Vincent

> you're giving a bad image to your product.
>>
>> I’d never promote XWiki as a tool to replace any of the tools I’ve
>> mentioned in my previous reply. If you do, you’re doing a disservice to
>> your users.
>>
>> XWiki is not:
>> - a forum
>> - a CI
>> - a SCM
>> - a chat tool
>> - a mailing list
>> - etc.
>>
>> Each of these tools have a purpose and it’s certainly not that of XWiki.
>>
>> For example a forum is a place to discuss. A wiki is not a place to
>> discuss (it can be as an edge case but it’s certainly not a best of breed
>> tool for that). A wiki is first and foremost a place where you can
>> aggregate knowledge.
>>
>> So yes we should use XWiki to aggregate knowledge And this is exactly what
>> we do on xwiki.org and design.xwiki.org.
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent
>>

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Re: Replace the Mailing Lists by a Forum

Guillaume Delhumeau
2016-11-22 15:25 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:

>
> > On 22 Nov 2016, at 15:03, Guillaume Delhumeau <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > 2016-11-22 14:39 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >>
> >>> On 22 Nov 2016, at 14:18, Guillaume Delhumeau <
> >> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> 2016-11-22 13:16 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 22 Nov 2016, at 12:13, Guillaume Delhumeau <
> >>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi everybody.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Today I would like to speak about an issue that annoys me for years.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> We are working on a tool whose one of the objectives is to stop
> >>>> scattering
> >>>>> information in multiple places. It's even the main argument explained
> >> in
> >>>>> the video integrated on the home page of XWiki:
> >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QTWrZ7OfzI.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But on the other hand, we, developers of XWiki, do the opposite in
> >>>>> practice. We discuss on mailing lists that are archived on Markmail,
> we
> >>>>> report issues on Jira and we do investigations on design.xwiki.org,
> >> and
> >>>> I
> >>>>> don't even count Github.
> >>>>
> >>>> Honestly I don’t see the relationship between the tool we develop and
> >> how
> >>>> it’s developed. These are completely separate things!
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> We develop a tool that centralize information and we don't use it to
> >>> centralize our own informations, except documentation.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Using a car is pretty easy but creating one is hard. That’s normal and
> >>>> expected :)
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Yes but if you also create a tool to help you creating a car and you
> >> don't
> >>> use it yourself,
> >>
> >> XWiki is not a tool to help develop software. It can be used for some
> >> parts of the software development process (the documentation part, the
> >> requirements part, etc). But for example it won’t help you store your
> >> sources files and it won’t help you develop your Java Code (your IDE
> will
> >> though).
> >>
> >
> > I completely agree and there is no discord on this.
> >
> > But I still believe that if we promote our tool as a better alternative
> for
> > emails and we keep sending brainstorm, votes, news, we're not giving a
> > consistent signal.
>
> I’m not sure I agree that a wiki (xwiki or any wiki) should replace email.
>
> I see a wiki as a way to extract pure knowledge from their temporary
> places (irc, mailing lists, etc) into a place where it can be aggregated
> and augmented, representing the sum of knowledge on a topic.
>

This is the upcoming knowledge-base flavor. But I have always considered
XWiki to be more than that. We have put a lot of effort to create:
- Application Within Minutes (it makes me thing about Microsoft Access)
- File Manager Application (there is Cloud solutions for that)
- XPoll Application
- Task Manager Application
- Ideas Application
and so on...

Anyway I've read (partially) the other threads about this subject and I
understand the counter-arguments now. I don't fully agree but I can
understand.

Thanks,
Guillaume
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Re: Replace the Mailing Lists by a Forum

vmassol
Administrator

> On 22 Nov 2016, at 15:40, Guillaume Delhumeau <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> 2016-11-22 15:25 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:
>
>>
>>> On 22 Nov 2016, at 15:03, Guillaume Delhumeau <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> 2016-11-22 14:39 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 22 Nov 2016, at 14:18, Guillaume Delhumeau <
>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> 2016-11-22 13:16 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 22 Nov 2016, at 12:13, Guillaume Delhumeau <
>>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi everybody.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Today I would like to speak about an issue that annoys me for years.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We are working on a tool whose one of the objectives is to stop
>>>>>> scattering
>>>>>>> information in multiple places. It's even the main argument explained
>>>> in
>>>>>>> the video integrated on the home page of XWiki:
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QTWrZ7OfzI.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But on the other hand, we, developers of XWiki, do the opposite in
>>>>>>> practice. We discuss on mailing lists that are archived on Markmail,
>> we
>>>>>>> report issues on Jira and we do investigations on design.xwiki.org,
>>>> and
>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> don't even count Github.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Honestly I don’t see the relationship between the tool we develop and
>>>> how
>>>>>> it’s developed. These are completely separate things!
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We develop a tool that centralize information and we don't use it to
>>>>> centralize our own informations, except documentation.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Using a car is pretty easy but creating one is hard. That’s normal and
>>>>>> expected :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes but if you also create a tool to help you creating a car and you
>>>> don't
>>>>> use it yourself,
>>>>
>>>> XWiki is not a tool to help develop software. It can be used for some
>>>> parts of the software development process (the documentation part, the
>>>> requirements part, etc). But for example it won’t help you store your
>>>> sources files and it won’t help you develop your Java Code (your IDE
>> will
>>>> though).
>>>>
>>>
>>> I completely agree and there is no discord on this.
>>>
>>> But I still believe that if we promote our tool as a better alternative
>> for
>>> emails and we keep sending brainstorm, votes, news, we're not giving a
>>> consistent signal.
>>
>> I’m not sure I agree that a wiki (xwiki or any wiki) should replace email.
>>
>> I see a wiki as a way to extract pure knowledge from their temporary
>> places (irc, mailing lists, etc) into a place where it can be aggregated
>> and augmented, representing the sum of knowledge on a topic.
>>
>
> This is the upcoming knowledge-base flavor. But I have always considered
> XWiki to be more than that. We have put a lot of effort to create:
> - Application Within Minutes (it makes me thing about Microsoft Access)
> - File Manager Application (there is Cloud solutions for that)
> - XPoll Application
> - Task Manager Application
> - Ideas Application
> and so on…

Yes and that’s why XWiki is great! You can create custom small apps in it easily for all your needs.

Several of those apps are "anti-wiki” concept BTW (such as File Manager app, Forum app, etc) since they scatter information instead of aggregating them and allowing easy edit/save (the wiki concept).

So yes, *theoretically*, we could imagine XWiki implementing the best possible CI tool, best Forum tool, best Chat tool, best Task management tool, etc.

In practice it’s unlikely to happen because you’ll find companies dedicated to providing solutions for those (it’s likely that JIRA will always be a better *generic* issue tracker than the Task application in xwiki just to give one example). Another example is WYSIWYG. We were developing ours till we switched to CK because it’s hard to compete with someone else making a living developing a specific tool.

But it doesn’t matter because:
1) Not everyone need the best possible tool. If the needs are not very high it can be more than enough to have a simple tool doing what you need.
2) XWiki can provide tools that can be better adapted/customized to specific needs and thus be better than generic best of breed tools in some cases.

Personally I’d love to have a Forum app in XWiki that does what stackoverflow does for example. The reality is that the current forum app will still need a lot of time to be invested in it to reach the same level of features.

Does the xwiki dev team have the time to develop that vs using an existing forum app that does the job and more? My personal opinion is no, we should spend the time we have in polishing XWiki, making it the best possible wiki platform to develop apps on top of it.

Could we use the Forum app as it is for our needs? Maybe. This is why I said you/we should start listing the use cases we need solved since we won’t get anywhere without being more precise in term of our needs. Same if you want to replace JIRA by something else (Github issues for example).

> Anyway I've read (partially) the other threads about this subject and I
> understand the counter-arguments now. I don't fully agree but I can
> understand.

I haven’t read them again so I don’t know where I stand at this point :)

But I’m open to discuss better solution to replace one or several mailing lists. However starting the discussion on saying that a wiki is better than lists or lists are better than wiki will not get us far IMO.

A design page on design.xwiki.org with a table listing the use cases we need/want, the various alternatives and the pros/cons could help progress on this topic.

Let’s see what others think.

Thanks
-Vincent

> Thanks,
> Guillaume

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Re: Replace the Mailing Lists by a Forum

Julio
Hi,
Would not it be interesting to use google groups? For example, the Django
Project uses google groups for your mailing list.
https://www.djangoproject.com/community/

Julio

2016-11-22 13:01 GMT-02:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:

>
> > On 22 Nov 2016, at 15:40, Guillaume Delhumeau <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > 2016-11-22 15:25 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >>
> >>> On 22 Nov 2016, at 15:03, Guillaume Delhumeau <
> >> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> 2016-11-22 14:39 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 22 Nov 2016, at 14:18, Guillaume Delhumeau <
> >>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2016-11-22 13:16 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 22 Nov 2016, at 12:13, Guillaume Delhumeau <
> >>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi everybody.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Today I would like to speak about an issue that annoys me for
> years.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We are working on a tool whose one of the objectives is to stop
> >>>>>> scattering
> >>>>>>> information in multiple places. It's even the main argument
> explained
> >>>> in
> >>>>>>> the video integrated on the home page of XWiki:
> >>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QTWrZ7OfzI.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> But on the other hand, we, developers of XWiki, do the opposite in
> >>>>>>> practice. We discuss on mailing lists that are archived on
> Markmail,
> >> we
> >>>>>>> report issues on Jira and we do investigations on design.xwiki.org
> ,
> >>>> and
> >>>>>> I
> >>>>>>> don't even count Github.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Honestly I don’t see the relationship between the tool we develop
> and
> >>>> how
> >>>>>> it’s developed. These are completely separate things!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> We develop a tool that centralize information and we don't use it to
> >>>>> centralize our own informations, except documentation.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Using a car is pretty easy but creating one is hard. That’s normal
> and
> >>>>>> expected :)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes but if you also create a tool to help you creating a car and you
> >>>> don't
> >>>>> use it yourself,
> >>>>
> >>>> XWiki is not a tool to help develop software. It can be used for some
> >>>> parts of the software development process (the documentation part, the
> >>>> requirements part, etc). But for example it won’t help you store your
> >>>> sources files and it won’t help you develop your Java Code (your IDE
> >> will
> >>>> though).
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I completely agree and there is no discord on this.
> >>>
> >>> But I still believe that if we promote our tool as a better alternative
> >> for
> >>> emails and we keep sending brainstorm, votes, news, we're not giving a
> >>> consistent signal.
> >>
> >> I’m not sure I agree that a wiki (xwiki or any wiki) should replace
> email.
> >>
> >> I see a wiki as a way to extract pure knowledge from their temporary
> >> places (irc, mailing lists, etc) into a place where it can be aggregated
> >> and augmented, representing the sum of knowledge on a topic.
> >>
> >
> > This is the upcoming knowledge-base flavor. But I have always considered
> > XWiki to be more than that. We have put a lot of effort to create:
> > - Application Within Minutes (it makes me thing about Microsoft Access)
> > - File Manager Application (there is Cloud solutions for that)
> > - XPoll Application
> > - Task Manager Application
> > - Ideas Application
> > and so on…
>
> Yes and that’s why XWiki is great! You can create custom small apps in it
> easily for all your needs.
>
> Several of those apps are "anti-wiki” concept BTW (such as File Manager
> app, Forum app, etc) since they scatter information instead of aggregating
> them and allowing easy edit/save (the wiki concept).
>
> So yes, *theoretically*, we could imagine XWiki implementing the best
> possible CI tool, best Forum tool, best Chat tool, best Task management
> tool, etc.
>
> In practice it’s unlikely to happen because you’ll find companies
> dedicated to providing solutions for those (it’s likely that JIRA will
> always be a better *generic* issue tracker than the Task application in
> xwiki just to give one example). Another example is WYSIWYG. We were
> developing ours till we switched to CK because it’s hard to compete with
> someone else making a living developing a specific tool.
>
> But it doesn’t matter because:
> 1) Not everyone need the best possible tool. If the needs are not very
> high it can be more than enough to have a simple tool doing what you need.
> 2) XWiki can provide tools that can be better adapted/customized to
> specific needs and thus be better than generic best of breed tools in some
> cases.
>
> Personally I’d love to have a Forum app in XWiki that does what
> stackoverflow does for example. The reality is that the current forum app
> will still need a lot of time to be invested in it to reach the same level
> of features.
>
> Does the xwiki dev team have the time to develop that vs using an existing
> forum app that does the job and more? My personal opinion is no, we should
> spend the time we have in polishing XWiki, making it the best possible wiki
> platform to develop apps on top of it.
>
> Could we use the Forum app as it is for our needs? Maybe. This is why I
> said you/we should start listing the use cases we need solved since we
> won’t get anywhere without being more precise in term of our needs. Same if
> you want to replace JIRA by something else (Github issues for example).
>
> > Anyway I've read (partially) the other threads about this subject and I
> > understand the counter-arguments now. I don't fully agree but I can
> > understand.
>
> I haven’t read them again so I don’t know where I stand at this point :)
>
> But I’m open to discuss better solution to replace one or several mailing
> lists. However starting the discussion on saying that a wiki is better than
> lists or lists are better than wiki will not get us far IMO.
>
> A design page on design.xwiki.org with a table listing the use cases we
> need/want, the various alternatives and the pros/cons could help progress
> on this topic.
>
> Let’s see what others think.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> > Thanks,
> > Guillaume
>
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: Replace the Mailing Lists by a Forum

Caleb James DeLisle-3
I kind of like this idea because it preserves the email interface for
people who want that but at the same time it allows people to interact
with it as if it were a forum.



On 23/11/16 01:27, Julio Brum wrote:

> Hi,
> Would not it be interesting to use google groups? For example, the Django
> Project uses google groups for your mailing list.
> https://www.djangoproject.com/community/
>
> Julio
>
> 2016-11-22 13:01 GMT-02:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:
>
>>
>>> On 22 Nov 2016, at 15:40, Guillaume Delhumeau <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> 2016-11-22 15:25 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 22 Nov 2016, at 15:03, Guillaume Delhumeau <
>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> 2016-11-22 14:39 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 22 Nov 2016, at 14:18, Guillaume Delhumeau <
>>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2016-11-22 13:16 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 22 Nov 2016, at 12:13, Guillaume Delhumeau <
>>>>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi everybody.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Today I would like to speak about an issue that annoys me for
>> years.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We are working on a tool whose one of the objectives is to stop
>>>>>>>> scattering
>>>>>>>>> information in multiple places. It's even the main argument
>> explained
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> the video integrated on the home page of XWiki:
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QTWrZ7OfzI.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But on the other hand, we, developers of XWiki, do the opposite in
>>>>>>>>> practice. We discuss on mailing lists that are archived on
>> Markmail,
>>>> we
>>>>>>>>> report issues on Jira and we do investigations on design.xwiki.org
>> ,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> don't even count Github.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Honestly I don’t see the relationship between the tool we develop
>> and
>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>> it’s developed. These are completely separate things!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We develop a tool that centralize information and we don't use it to
>>>>>>> centralize our own informations, except documentation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Using a car is pretty easy but creating one is hard. That’s normal
>> and
>>>>>>>> expected :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes but if you also create a tool to help you creating a car and you
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> use it yourself,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> XWiki is not a tool to help develop software. It can be used for some
>>>>>> parts of the software development process (the documentation part, the
>>>>>> requirements part, etc). But for example it won’t help you store your
>>>>>> sources files and it won’t help you develop your Java Code (your IDE
>>>> will
>>>>>> though).
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I completely agree and there is no discord on this.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I still believe that if we promote our tool as a better alternative
>>>> for
>>>>> emails and we keep sending brainstorm, votes, news, we're not giving a
>>>>> consistent signal.
>>>>
>>>> I’m not sure I agree that a wiki (xwiki or any wiki) should replace
>> email.
>>>>
>>>> I see a wiki as a way to extract pure knowledge from their temporary
>>>> places (irc, mailing lists, etc) into a place where it can be aggregated
>>>> and augmented, representing the sum of knowledge on a topic.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is the upcoming knowledge-base flavor. But I have always considered
>>> XWiki to be more than that. We have put a lot of effort to create:
>>> - Application Within Minutes (it makes me thing about Microsoft Access)
>>> - File Manager Application (there is Cloud solutions for that)
>>> - XPoll Application
>>> - Task Manager Application
>>> - Ideas Application
>>> and so on…
>>
>> Yes and that’s why XWiki is great! You can create custom small apps in it
>> easily for all your needs.
>>
>> Several of those apps are "anti-wiki” concept BTW (such as File Manager
>> app, Forum app, etc) since they scatter information instead of aggregating
>> them and allowing easy edit/save (the wiki concept).
>>
>> So yes, *theoretically*, we could imagine XWiki implementing the best
>> possible CI tool, best Forum tool, best Chat tool, best Task management
>> tool, etc.
>>
>> In practice it’s unlikely to happen because you’ll find companies
>> dedicated to providing solutions for those (it’s likely that JIRA will
>> always be a better *generic* issue tracker than the Task application in
>> xwiki just to give one example). Another example is WYSIWYG. We were
>> developing ours till we switched to CK because it’s hard to compete with
>> someone else making a living developing a specific tool.
>>
>> But it doesn’t matter because:
>> 1) Not everyone need the best possible tool. If the needs are not very
>> high it can be more than enough to have a simple tool doing what you need.
>> 2) XWiki can provide tools that can be better adapted/customized to
>> specific needs and thus be better than generic best of breed tools in some
>> cases.
>>
>> Personally I’d love to have a Forum app in XWiki that does what
>> stackoverflow does for example. The reality is that the current forum app
>> will still need a lot of time to be invested in it to reach the same level
>> of features.
>>
>> Does the xwiki dev team have the time to develop that vs using an existing
>> forum app that does the job and more? My personal opinion is no, we should
>> spend the time we have in polishing XWiki, making it the best possible wiki
>> platform to develop apps on top of it.
>>
>> Could we use the Forum app as it is for our needs? Maybe. This is why I
>> said you/we should start listing the use cases we need solved since we
>> won’t get anywhere without being more precise in term of our needs. Same if
>> you want to replace JIRA by something else (Github issues for example).
>>
>>> Anyway I've read (partially) the other threads about this subject and I
>>> understand the counter-arguments now. I don't fully agree but I can
>>> understand.
>>
>> I haven’t read them again so I don’t know where I stand at this point :)
>>
>> But I’m open to discuss better solution to replace one or several mailing
>> lists. However starting the discussion on saying that a wiki is better than
>> lists or lists are better than wiki will not get us far IMO.
>>
>> A design page on design.xwiki.org with a table listing the use cases we
>> need/want, the various alternatives and the pros/cons could help progress
>> on this topic.
>>
>> Let’s see what others think.
>>
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent
>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Guillaume
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> devs mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>>
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: Replace the Mailing Lists by a Forum

Caleb James DeLisle-3
In reply to this post by Caleb James DeLisle-3
No answer?

I was not asking in jest, I see that XWiki is advertized as a
solution to many types of Knowledge Management problems and yet
you (Vincent) said that it should not replace a Forum, Chat or
Mailing List. I think there should be some common understanding
of what XWiki should and should not be doing.

Thanks,
Caleb


On 22/11/16 14:41, Caleb James DeLisle wrote:
> If I might join in and ask, what should XWiki be used for ?
>
> On 22/11/16 14:39, Vincent Massol wrote:
>> I’d never promote XWiki as a tool to replace any of the tools I’ve mentioned in my previous reply. If you do, you’re doing a disservice to your users.
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
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Re: Replace the Mailing Lists by a Forum

Guillaume Delhumeau
In reply to this post by Caleb James DeLisle-3
We also have Nabble for that:
http://xwiki.475771.n2.nabble.com/Re-organize-the-Drawer-s-entries-td7601700.html

That you can see there:
http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/Forum

But IMO, it does not substitute to a real forum, mostly because of the lack
of formatting.

2016-11-23 10:02 GMT+01:00 Caleb James DeLisle <[hidden email]>:

> I kind of like this idea because it preserves the email interface for
> people who want that but at the same time it allows people to interact
> with it as if it were a forum.
>
>
>
>
> On 23/11/16 01:27, Julio Brum wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> Would not it be interesting to use google groups? For example, the Django
>> Project uses google groups for your mailing list.
>> https://www.djangoproject.com/community/
>>
>> Julio
>>
>> 2016-11-22 13:01 GMT-02:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>
>>> On 22 Nov 2016, at 15:40, Guillaume Delhumeau <
>>>>
>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2016-11-22 15:25 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 22 Nov 2016, at 15:03, Guillaume Delhumeau <
>>>>>>
>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2016-11-22 14:39 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 22 Nov 2016, at 14:18, Guillaume Delhumeau <
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2016-11-22 13:16 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 22 Nov 2016, at 12:13, Guillaume Delhumeau <
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi everybody.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Today I would like to speak about an issue that annoys me for
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> years.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We are working on a tool whose one of the objectives is to stop
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> scattering
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> information in multiple places. It's even the main argument
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> explained
>>>
>>>> in
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the video integrated on the home page of XWiki:
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QTWrZ7OfzI.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But on the other hand, we, developers of XWiki, do the opposite in
>>>>>>>>>> practice. We discuss on mailing lists that are archived on
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Markmail,
>>>
>>>> we
>>>>>
>>>>>> report issues on Jira and we do investigations on design.xwiki.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ,
>>>
>>>> and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> don't even count Github.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Honestly I don’t see the relationship between the tool we develop
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and
>>>
>>>> how
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> it’s developed. These are completely separate things!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We develop a tool that centralize information and we don't use it to
>>>>>>>> centralize our own informations, except documentation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Using a car is pretty easy but creating one is hard. That’s normal
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and
>>>
>>>> expected :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes but if you also create a tool to help you creating a car and you
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> use it yourself,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> XWiki is not a tool to help develop software. It can be used for some
>>>>>>> parts of the software development process (the documentation part,
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> requirements part, etc). But for example it won’t help you store your
>>>>>>> sources files and it won’t help you develop your Java Code (your IDE
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> will
>>>>>
>>>>>> though).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I completely agree and there is no discord on this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I still believe that if we promote our tool as a better
>>>>>> alternative
>>>>>>
>>>>> for
>>>>>
>>>>>> emails and we keep sending brainstorm, votes, news, we're not giving a
>>>>>> consistent signal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I’m not sure I agree that a wiki (xwiki or any wiki) should replace
>>>>>
>>>> email.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I see a wiki as a way to extract pure knowledge from their temporary
>>>>> places (irc, mailing lists, etc) into a place where it can be
>>>>> aggregated
>>>>> and augmented, representing the sum of knowledge on a topic.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> This is the upcoming knowledge-base flavor. But I have always considered
>>>> XWiki to be more than that. We have put a lot of effort to create:
>>>> - Application Within Minutes (it makes me thing about Microsoft Access)
>>>> - File Manager Application (there is Cloud solutions for that)
>>>> - XPoll Application
>>>> - Task Manager Application
>>>> - Ideas Application
>>>> and so on…
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes and that’s why XWiki is great! You can create custom small apps in it
>>> easily for all your needs.
>>>
>>> Several of those apps are "anti-wiki” concept BTW (such as File Manager
>>> app, Forum app, etc) since they scatter information instead of
>>> aggregating
>>> them and allowing easy edit/save (the wiki concept).
>>>
>>> So yes, *theoretically*, we could imagine XWiki implementing the best
>>> possible CI tool, best Forum tool, best Chat tool, best Task management
>>> tool, etc.
>>>
>>> In practice it’s unlikely to happen because you’ll find companies
>>> dedicated to providing solutions for those (it’s likely that JIRA will
>>> always be a better *generic* issue tracker than the Task application in
>>> xwiki just to give one example). Another example is WYSIWYG. We were
>>> developing ours till we switched to CK because it’s hard to compete with
>>> someone else making a living developing a specific tool.
>>>
>>> But it doesn’t matter because:
>>> 1) Not everyone need the best possible tool. If the needs are not very
>>> high it can be more than enough to have a simple tool doing what you
>>> need.
>>> 2) XWiki can provide tools that can be better adapted/customized to
>>> specific needs and thus be better than generic best of breed tools in
>>> some
>>> cases.
>>>
>>> Personally I’d love to have a Forum app in XWiki that does what
>>> stackoverflow does for example. The reality is that the current forum app
>>> will still need a lot of time to be invested in it to reach the same
>>> level
>>> of features.
>>>
>>> Does the xwiki dev team have the time to develop that vs using an
>>> existing
>>> forum app that does the job and more? My personal opinion is no, we
>>> should
>>> spend the time we have in polishing XWiki, making it the best possible
>>> wiki
>>> platform to develop apps on top of it.
>>>
>>> Could we use the Forum app as it is for our needs? Maybe. This is why I
>>> said you/we should start listing the use cases we need solved since we
>>> won’t get anywhere without being more precise in term of our needs. Same
>>> if
>>> you want to replace JIRA by something else (Github issues for example).
>>>
>>> Anyway I've read (partially) the other threads about this subject and I
>>>> understand the counter-arguments now. I don't fully agree but I can
>>>> understand.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I haven’t read them again so I don’t know where I stand at this point :)
>>>
>>> But I’m open to discuss better solution to replace one or several mailing
>>> lists. However starting the discussion on saying that a wiki is better
>>> than
>>> lists or lists are better than wiki will not get us far IMO.
>>>
>>> A design page on design.xwiki.org with a table listing the use cases we
>>> need/want, the various alternatives and the pros/cons could help progress
>>> on this topic.
>>>
>>> Let’s see what others think.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> -Vincent
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>> Guillaume
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> devs mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> devs mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>



--
Guillaume Delhumeau ([hidden email])
Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
Committer on the XWiki.org project
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Re: Replace the Mailing Lists by a Forum

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by Caleb James DeLisle-3

> On 23 Nov 2016, at 10:02, Caleb James DeLisle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I kind of like this idea because it preserves the email interface for
> people who want that but at the same time it allows people to interact
> with it as if it were a forum.

Note: Users can already do that with Nabble (and they do use this - a majority of users email come from Nabble already):
http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/Forum

However it’s slightly more convoluted that Google Groups:
* You register with Nabble (you receive an email to confirm your email address and activate your account)
* You can then click “reply” on a thread. When you do you get a warning from Nabble saying that this forum is a getway to a mailing list and that you need to be registered to the list too in order to be able to post. You get a “subscribe” button.
* When you click the “subscribe” button a request is made for you to register your email to the list and you receive a confirmation email that you need to reply to.
* From then on you’re good.

Thanks
-Vincent

> On 23/11/16 01:27, Julio Brum wrote:
>> Hi,
>> Would not it be interesting to use google groups? For example, the Django
>> Project uses google groups for your mailing list.
>> https://www.djangoproject.com/community/
>>
>> Julio
>>
>> 2016-11-22 13:01 GMT-02:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>>
>>>> On 22 Nov 2016, at 15:40, Guillaume Delhumeau <
>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 2016-11-22 15:25 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 22 Nov 2016, at 15:03, Guillaume Delhumeau <
>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2016-11-22 14:39 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 22 Nov 2016, at 14:18, Guillaume Delhumeau <
>>>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2016-11-22 13:16 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 22 Nov 2016, at 12:13, Guillaume Delhumeau <
>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi everybody.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Today I would like to speak about an issue that annoys me for
>>> years.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We are working on a tool whose one of the objectives is to stop
>>>>>>>>> scattering
>>>>>>>>>> information in multiple places. It's even the main argument
>>> explained
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> the video integrated on the home page of XWiki:
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QTWrZ7OfzI.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But on the other hand, we, developers of XWiki, do the opposite in
>>>>>>>>>> practice. We discuss on mailing lists that are archived on
>>> Markmail,
>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>> report issues on Jira and we do investigations on design.xwiki.org
>>> ,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> don't even count Github.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Honestly I don’t see the relationship between the tool we develop
>>> and
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>> it’s developed. These are completely separate things!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We develop a tool that centralize information and we don't use it to
>>>>>>>> centralize our own informations, except documentation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Using a car is pretty easy but creating one is hard. That’s normal
>>> and
>>>>>>>>> expected :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes but if you also create a tool to help you creating a car and you
>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>> use it yourself,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> XWiki is not a tool to help develop software. It can be used for some
>>>>>>> parts of the software development process (the documentation part, the
>>>>>>> requirements part, etc). But for example it won’t help you store your
>>>>>>> sources files and it won’t help you develop your Java Code (your IDE
>>>>> will
>>>>>>> though).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I completely agree and there is no discord on this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I still believe that if we promote our tool as a better alternative
>>>>> for
>>>>>> emails and we keep sending brainstorm, votes, news, we're not giving a
>>>>>> consistent signal.
>>>>>
>>>>> I’m not sure I agree that a wiki (xwiki or any wiki) should replace
>>> email.
>>>>>
>>>>> I see a wiki as a way to extract pure knowledge from their temporary
>>>>> places (irc, mailing lists, etc) into a place where it can be aggregated
>>>>> and augmented, representing the sum of knowledge on a topic.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is the upcoming knowledge-base flavor. But I have always considered
>>>> XWiki to be more than that. We have put a lot of effort to create:
>>>> - Application Within Minutes (it makes me thing about Microsoft Access)
>>>> - File Manager Application (there is Cloud solutions for that)
>>>> - XPoll Application
>>>> - Task Manager Application
>>>> - Ideas Application
>>>> and so on…
>>>
>>> Yes and that’s why XWiki is great! You can create custom small apps in it
>>> easily for all your needs.
>>>
>>> Several of those apps are "anti-wiki” concept BTW (such as File Manager
>>> app, Forum app, etc) since they scatter information instead of aggregating
>>> them and allowing easy edit/save (the wiki concept).
>>>
>>> So yes, *theoretically*, we could imagine XWiki implementing the best
>>> possible CI tool, best Forum tool, best Chat tool, best Task management
>>> tool, etc.
>>>
>>> In practice it’s unlikely to happen because you’ll find companies
>>> dedicated to providing solutions for those (it’s likely that JIRA will
>>> always be a better *generic* issue tracker than the Task application in
>>> xwiki just to give one example). Another example is WYSIWYG. We were
>>> developing ours till we switched to CK because it’s hard to compete with
>>> someone else making a living developing a specific tool.
>>>
>>> But it doesn’t matter because:
>>> 1) Not everyone need the best possible tool. If the needs are not very
>>> high it can be more than enough to have a simple tool doing what you need.
>>> 2) XWiki can provide tools that can be better adapted/customized to
>>> specific needs and thus be better than generic best of breed tools in some
>>> cases.
>>>
>>> Personally I’d love to have a Forum app in XWiki that does what
>>> stackoverflow does for example. The reality is that the current forum app
>>> will still need a lot of time to be invested in it to reach the same level
>>> of features.
>>>
>>> Does the xwiki dev team have the time to develop that vs using an existing
>>> forum app that does the job and more? My personal opinion is no, we should
>>> spend the time we have in polishing XWiki, making it the best possible wiki
>>> platform to develop apps on top of it.
>>>
>>> Could we use the Forum app as it is for our needs? Maybe. This is why I
>>> said you/we should start listing the use cases we need solved since we
>>> won’t get anywhere without being more precise in term of our needs. Same if
>>> you want to replace JIRA by something else (Github issues for example).
>>>
>>>> Anyway I've read (partially) the other threads about this subject and I
>>>> understand the counter-arguments now. I don't fully agree but I can
>>>> understand.
>>>
>>> I haven’t read them again so I don’t know where I stand at this point :)
>>>
>>> But I’m open to discuss better solution to replace one or several mailing
>>> lists. However starting the discussion on saying that a wiki is better than
>>> lists or lists are better than wiki will not get us far IMO.
>>>
>>> A design page on design.xwiki.org with a table listing the use cases we
>>> need/want, the various alternatives and the pros/cons could help progress
>>> on this topic.
>>>
>>> Let’s see what others think.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> -Vincent
>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Guillaume
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> devs mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> devs mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>>
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

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Re: Replace the Mailing Lists by a Forum

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by Caleb James DeLisle-3
Hi Caleb,

> On 23 Nov 2016, at 10:06, Caleb James DeLisle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> No answer?
>
> I was not asking in jest, I see that XWiki is advertized as a
> solution to many types of Knowledge Management problems and yet
> you (Vincent) said that it should not replace a Forum, Chat or
> Mailing List. I think there should be some common understanding
> of what XWiki should and should not be doing.

Note that I don’t consider having said that and that’s not my opinion :)

I also consider that I have already replied with a lengthy reply at http://markmail.org/message/qmstmwke643hrm6y

If you wish to continue the discussion, it would be nice if you could reply to this post and tell me where you don’t agree.

Thanks
-Vincent

> Thanks,
> Caleb
>
>
> On 22/11/16 14:41, Caleb James DeLisle wrote:
>> If I might join in and ask, what should XWiki be used for ?
>>
>> On 22/11/16 14:39, Vincent Massol wrote:
>>> I’d never promote XWiki as a tool to replace any of the tools I’ve mentioned in my previous reply. If you do, you’re doing a disservice to your users.

_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs