Request: make linking easy

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Request: make linking easy

Anton Hughes
HI all

One of the key concepts of a wiki is its easy for everyone to edit. There
are various wiki syntaxs - perhaps the most popular being Mediawiki -  and
all of them have a goal of making it easy for users to write in the
specific syntax, without the need to know html.

So, one of the most basic features of a wiki, CMS, and the web, is linking.
In Html a user has to write

   - a
   - href - the user has to know if it is relative or absolute
   - link text

Its not a lot, but its still too much for non technical people.

In a normal wiki a user just writes
[[MyExamplePage]]

This is so simple that anyone can do it!

In XWiki (and I found this out by using the wysiwyg editor)
[[MyExamplePage>>doc:MyExamplePage.WebHome]]

What is doc? And WebHome? And >>? And whats with the dots, semi colons?

As a technical person I can probably figure this out. But there is no way I
could sell my management on this. Non technical people will never
understand this.

And yes, non-tech people can use the wysiwyg. But then why use a wiki? Why
not just use a CMS.






The

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Re: Request: make linking easy

vmassol
Administrator
Hi,

On 26 Nov 2015 at 20:00:54, Anton Hughes ([hidden email](mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:

> HI all
>  
> One of the key concepts of a wiki is its easy for everyone to edit. There
> are various wiki syntaxs - perhaps the most popular being Mediawiki - and
> all of them have a goal of making it easy for users to write in the
> specific syntax, without the need to know html.
>  
> So, one of the most basic features of a wiki, CMS, and the web, is linking.
> In Html a user has to write
>  
> - a
> - href - the user has to know if it is relative or absolute
> - link text
>  
> Its not a lot, but its still too much for non technical people.
>  
> In a normal wiki a user just writes
> [[MyExamplePage]]

[[MyExamplePage]] works in XWiki too :)

> This is so simple that anyone can do it!

Why don’t you try it on xwiki?

> In XWiki (and I found this out by using the wysiwyg editor)
> [[MyExamplePage>>doc:MyExamplePage.WebHome]]
>  
> What is doc? And WebHome? And >>? And whats with the dots, semi colons?

See http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Main/XWikiSyntax

BTW XWiki supports several syntaxes, see http://rendering.xwiki.org/

> As a technical person I can probably figure this out. But there is no way I
> could sell my management on this. Non technical people will never
> understand this.

> And yes, non-tech people can use the wysiwyg. But then why use a wiki? Why
> not just use a CMS.

If the only difference you see is the markup then you’re missing a lot :)

See http://www.xwiki.com/fr/comparatifs/xwiki-vs-cms for example.

Thanks
-Vincent

> Anton Hughes

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Re: Request: make linking easy

Anton Hughes
On 26 November 2015 at 20:18, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If the only difference you see is the markup then you’re missing a lot :)
>
> See http://www.xwiki.com/fr/comparatifs/xwiki-vs-cms for example.
>

This document puts a lot of focus on collaboration - which I agree is an
important aspect.
However, as I have tried to point out, its easier to write html than Xwiki
syntax.




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Re: Request: make linking easy

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by vmassol

On 26 Nov 2015 at 20:28:59, Anton Hughes ([hidden email](mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:

>  
> On 26 November 2015 at 20:18, [hidden email](mailto:[hidden email]) wrote:
> > [[MyExamplePage]] works in XWiki too :)  
> >  
> > > This is so simple that anyone can do it!  
> >  
> > Why don’t you try it on xwiki?  
> I have - and it doesnt work on XWiki. That is why I took the time to write about this. 

It works. Create a page with [[test]]. You’ll see a question mark (wanted link). Click on it, add content and save. Navigate back to your first page. The link works.

What you’re showing in the screenshots is orange and apples. In one link you link to a new page called MyExamplePage. And in the second one you link to a page named MyExamplePage.WebHome.

In Mediawiki try create a page2 that exists (and a page1 that doesn’t). Then write in another page:
[[page1]]
[[page2]]

You’ll get the same result.

Thanks
-Vincent

> Anton Hughes  


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Re: Request: make linking easy

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by Anton Hughes


On 26 Nov 2015 at 20:33:23, Anton Hughes ([hidden email]) wrote:


On 26 November 2015 at 20:18, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
If the only difference you see is the markup then you’re missing a lot :)

See http://www.xwiki.com/fr/comparatifs/xwiki-vs-cms for example.

This document puts a lot of focus on collaboration - which I agree is an important aspect.
However, as I have tried to point out, its easier to write html than Xwiki syntax. 


I think I’m going to stop the discussion here since that clearly is a false assumption and you’d be hard-pressed to find a single user agreeing with you on this.

BTW xwiki does support using HTML as an input syntax as I’ve already pointed out too in a previous answer linking to http://rendering.xwiki.org that lists all supported syntaxes.



Thanks and have a good evening

-Vincent

Anton Hughes

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Re: Request: make linking easy

Anton Hughes
In reply to this post by vmassol
On 26 November 2015 at 20:33, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It works. Create a page with [[test]]. You’ll see a question mark (wanted
> link). Click on it, add content and save. Navigate back to your first page.
> The link works.
>
> What you’re showing in the screenshots is orange and apples. In one link
> you link to a new page called MyExamplePage. And in the second one you link
> to a page named MyExamplePage.WebHome.
>
> In Mediawiki try create a page2 that exists (and a page1 that doesn’t).
> Then write in another page:
>

Youre missing my point.
I'm trying to point out how difficult it is, without prior knowledge, to do
just a simple link.
You answer by giving me links to all sorts of docs.

As I tried to illustrate, I have already created a page called
MyExamplePage. Writing [[MyExamplePage]] does NOT link to it. To correctly
link to it need to study documentation, and write a lot more.
The correct link is [[MyExamplePage>>doc:MyExamplePage.WebHome]]
This is not easy. This is not natural. This does not help collaboration.
This does require studying documentation.

Obviously for you, who use this product everyday, you think Im just
complaining about nothing. But, dont take my word - just ask any normal
user what ' [[MyExamplePage>>doc:MyExamplePage.WebHome]]' means. No one in
my office has a clue.
A wiki is about making things simple for everyday users - but you are a
heavy duty technical user. Xwiki has taken the concept of wiki and made it
brittle and technical.





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Re: Request: make linking easy

Eduard Moraru
Hi Anton,

Sorry to hear you are having such difficulties with XWiki. Even so, it`s
interesting to hear other opinions.

Regarding your particular issue with the link syntax...

TL;DR Try "[[MyExamplePage.WebHome]]". That should work out nicely for what
you want.

Detailed answer...

You say you have just created the document "MyExamplePage". However, since
you are probably using the 7.2+ UI, with the shift to Nested Pages, you
have probably actually created the page "MyExamplePage.WebHome" (unless
you've checked "Terminal Page" as an advanced user, which I doubt you did).

At this point, you should have a look at this page [1].

When you are using WYSIWYG to add a link by using the nice wizards, we have
tried (a lot actually) to make the transition to Nested Pages transparent
to users (both in the previous creation step and in the WYSIWYG editor) so
that regular users are not exposed to the technical/implementation detail
which is the "WebHome" part. Everywhere they look, users see document
titles instead of the document name "WebHome".
While still in WYSIWYG, the editor might produce an overly explicit wiki
syntax in the document's content, and, if you study the XWiki Syntax page,
you will see that all the information you mentioned is not really needed.
It is either a slightly overly explicit WYSIWYG thing but probably also
mixed with the input you`ve provided to the link wizard.

1. [[MyExamplePage>>doc:MyExamplePage.WebHome]] is broken into
[[label>>type:reference]].
2. In your case label and document name (actually space name) is the same,
so this is perfectly equivalent with: [[doc:MyExamplePage.WebHome]]
3. Now the "doc:" part is default, AFAIK, so this is why I mentioned an
overly explicit WYSIWYG editor... this means that, in the end, your like is
actually [[MyExamplePage.WebHome]].
4. The only issue left at this stage is the "WebHome" part, which, as
mentioned (and we are trying to make it well understood), is an
implementation/migration/historical detail of the Nested Pages approach
that we are pushing for since 7.2. Please keep in mind that XWiki is around
for almost 13 years now and it has evolved a lot, but never without its
growing pains. ATM, this is one of them. We are trying our best to make
everything transparent to simple users through nice UIs, but when you get
down to wiki syntax, macro parameters, includes, application development,
etc, you need to be an intermediate/advanced user and to also be aware of
these technical aspects.

In the current model, a page reference has a "wiki" field, a "space" path
field and a page "name" field. Our solution within the current model to
implement Nested Pages was to make the real page name part of the space
path (as last element) and, for the page "name" field, always user
"WebHome". In the pre 7.2 way of presenting things, this would look like we
are always creating spaces instead of pages, since (terminal) pages lack
flexibility, i.e. can no have child pages of their own. Probably the next
evolution step would be to drop the page "name" field altogether and just
keep the "path" field, which would remove the need for the "WebHome" hack
and would move more towards a "node"-based model. An even further evolution
step would be to maybe transform that path into an unique ID for the page
(which would not necessarily need to be a path), something that would allow
us to go to a parent-child based Nested Documents implementation [2].

Anyway, it's an iterative process and, at every step, we need to preserve
backwards compatibility with previous XWiki versions and/or to provide
viable and smooth migration processes, otherwise people already using XWiki
will not be very happy when they try to upgrade.

Hope this helps in understanding what is going on and that it's not really
an issue of the syntax, but of the compromise we had to make to be able to
expand our model.

-Eduard

----------
[1] http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Features/ContentOrganization
[2]
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/ParentchildUniqueIDNestedDocuments



On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 9:44 PM, Anton Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 26 November 2015 at 20:33, [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > It works. Create a page with [[test]]. You’ll see a question mark (wanted
> > link). Click on it, add content and save. Navigate back to your first
> page.
> > The link works.
> >
> > What you’re showing in the screenshots is orange and apples. In one link
> > you link to a new page called MyExamplePage. And in the second one you
> link
> > to a page named MyExamplePage.WebHome.
> >
> > In Mediawiki try create a page2 that exists (and a page1 that doesn’t).
> > Then write in another page:
> >
>
> Youre missing my point.
> I'm trying to point out how difficult it is, without prior knowledge, to do
> just a simple link.
> You answer by giving me links to all sorts of docs.
>
> As I tried to illustrate, I have already created a page called
> MyExamplePage. Writing [[MyExamplePage]] does NOT link to it. To correctly
> link to it need to study documentation, and write a lot more.
> The correct link is [[MyExamplePage>>doc:MyExamplePage.WebHome]]
> This is not easy. This is not natural. This does not help collaboration.
> This does require studying documentation.
>
> Obviously for you, who use this product everyday, you think Im just
> complaining about nothing. But, dont take my word - just ask any normal
> user what ' [[MyExamplePage>>doc:MyExamplePage.WebHome]]' means. No one in
> my office has a clue.
> A wiki is about making things simple for everyday users - but you are a
> heavy duty technical user. Xwiki has taken the concept of wiki and made it
> brittle and technical.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Anton Hughes
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>
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Re: Request: make linking easy

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by Anton Hughes
Hi Anton,

On 26 Nov 2015 at 20:44:35, Anton Hughes ([hidden email](mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:

>  
> On 26 November 2015 at 20:33, [hidden email](mailto:[hidden email]) wrote:
> > It works. Create a page with [[test]]. You’ll see a question mark (wanted link). Click on it, add content and save. Navigate back to your first page. The link works.
> >  
> > What you’re showing in the screenshots is orange and apples. In one link you link to a new page called MyExamplePage. And in the second one you link to a page named MyExamplePage.WebHome.
> >  
> > In Mediawiki try create a page2 that exists (and a page1 that doesn’t). Then write in another page:  
> Youre missing my point.  
> I'm trying to point out how difficult it is, without prior knowledge, to do just a simple link.
> You answer by giving me links to all sorts of docs.
>  
> As I tried to illustrate, I have already created a page called MyExamplePage. Writing [[MyExamplePage]] does NOT link to it. To correctly link to it need to study documentation, and write a lot more.  
> The correct link is [[MyExamplePage>>doc:MyExamplePage.WebHome]]
> This is not easy. This is not natural. This does not help collaboration. This does require studying documentation.
>  
> Obviously for you, who use this product everyday, you think Im just complaining about nothing. But, dont take my word - just ask any normal user what ' [[MyExamplePage>>doc:MyExamplePage.WebHome]]' means. No one in my office has a clue.  
> A wiki is about making things simple for everyday users - but you are a heavy duty technical user. Xwiki has taken the concept of wiki and made it brittle and technical. 


We exchanged a lot of emails yesterday. Let me try to summarize my position:

* I appreciate your feedback a lot, especially as it comes from someone not used to XWiki. This allows to have an external view different from ours which has been forged by years of using and developing XWiki.

* We currently have a problem starting with XWiki 7.2. We have a mismatch between the XWiki internal model (which supports subwikis, nested spaces and pages) and our UI in which we’re trying to completely hide the concept of Spaces so that users only see Nested Pages (note that I’ve said Nested Pages and not Nested Spaces). The issue surfaces when you start using wiki links in markup, macros or scripting APIs, which all currently accept a Reference (i.e. subwikis, nested spaces and pages, as in wiki:space1.space2.page). So we map Nested Pages onto Nested Spaces by always creating pages in a page named WebHome and in a space named after the name of the page the user wants to use.

* I don’t agree with you that having a single organization namespace is better than supporting hierarchies, and that the MediaWiki model is the best.

* The format you mentioned above, i.e. [[MyExamplePage>>doc:MyExamplePage.WebHome]] is the canonical format. You can drop “doc:” (in which case XWiki assumes you reference a doc by default). It’s there because we support lots of various other references: urls, mailto, unc, etc. See the syntax guide for more.

* The only complaint I know of (before XWiki 7.2) about the format of our links is that some user would have liked us to use the “/“ separator instead of “.”, e.g. [[label>>space/page]] instead of [[label>>space.page]].

* XWiki supports tags and a Tag UI if you wish to have various views for wiki pages. Note to self: we should add a “tag” parameter to the {{documents/}} macro (http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Extension/Documents+Macro) to list all docs with a given tag.

* Last, this feature of Nested Spaces and Nested Pages is very new (started in XWiki 7.2 and we’re still tuning it). It’ll take some time more for us to iron out all the wrinkles that result from it.

* We’re missing some documentation to explain all this. We’re also missing autocompletion of link references in the wiki editor to make it easy to link to existing pages.

Hope it helps.

Thanks
-Vincent

> Anton Hughes  


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Re: Request: make linking easy

Guillaume Lerouge
Hi Anton,

thanks for your feedback. As you noticed, XWiki is currently undergoing
significant changes in the way we handle pages and all the associated kinks
have not been worked out yet. If I may, one solution for you could be to
switch back to XWiki Enterprise 7.1 for the moment, and upgrade at a later
point in time, once things are more stable with regards to nested pages.

Regarding the way pages are organized, while I agree that the tree
organization can cause confusion for users coming from MediaWiki, the power
and flexibility coming with this (cascading rights in particular) would be
missed by users going the other way round.

Now clearly there are some difficulties coming from the fact that some
pages are nested and others aren't (I started a separate thread on this
topic). Specifically, the fact that the syntax requires "WebHome" to be
explicitly mentioned is annoying and I hope we'll be able to fix it soon.

Out of curiosity, since you seem to be familiar with MediaWiki, is there a
specific reason why you decided to go with XWiki this time?

In any case, thanks for all the feedback! Getting a fresh point of view
from newcomers is very valuable, even though we can sometimes react a bit
defensively.

Best,

Guillaume

On Friday, 27 November 2015, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Anton,
>
> On 26 Nov 2015 at 20:44:35, Anton Hughes ([hidden email] <javascript:;>
> (mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>)) wrote:
>
> >
> > On 26 November 2015 at 20:33, [hidden email] <javascript:;>(mailto:
> [hidden email] <javascript:;>) wrote:
> > > It works. Create a page with [[test]]. You’ll see a question mark
> (wanted link). Click on it, add content and save. Navigate back to your
> first page. The link works.
> > >
> > > What you’re showing in the screenshots is orange and apples. In one
> link you link to a new page called MyExamplePage. And in the second one you
> link to a page named MyExamplePage.WebHome.
> > >
> > > In Mediawiki try create a page2 that exists (and a page1 that
> doesn’t). Then write in another page:
> > Youre missing my point.
> > I'm trying to point out how difficult it is, without prior knowledge, to
> do just a simple link.
> > You answer by giving me links to all sorts of docs.
> >
> > As I tried to illustrate, I have already created a page called
> MyExamplePage. Writing [[MyExamplePage]] does NOT link to it. To correctly
> link to it need to study documentation, and write a lot more.
> > The correct link is [[MyExamplePage>>doc:MyExamplePage.WebHome]]
> > This is not easy. This is not natural. This does not help collaboration.
> This does require studying documentation.
> >
> > Obviously for you, who use this product everyday, you think Im just
> complaining about nothing. But, dont take my word - just ask any normal
> user what ' [[MyExamplePage>>doc:MyExamplePage.WebHome]]' means. No one in
> my office has a clue.
> > A wiki is about making things simple for everyday users - but you are a
> heavy duty technical user. Xwiki has taken the concept of wiki and made it
> brittle and technical.
>
>
> We exchanged a lot of emails yesterday. Let me try to summarize my
> position:
>
> * I appreciate your feedback a lot, especially as it comes from someone
> not used to XWiki. This allows to have an external view different from ours
> which has been forged by years of using and developing XWiki.
>
> * We currently have a problem starting with XWiki 7.2. We have a mismatch
> between the XWiki internal model (which supports subwikis, nested spaces
> and pages) and our UI in which we’re trying to completely hide the concept
> of Spaces so that users only see Nested Pages (note that I’ve said Nested
> Pages and not Nested Spaces). The issue surfaces when you start using wiki
> links in markup, macros or scripting APIs, which all currently accept a
> Reference (i.e. subwikis, nested spaces and pages, as in
> wiki:space1.space2.page). So we map Nested Pages onto Nested Spaces by
> always creating pages in a page named WebHome and in a space named after
> the name of the page the user wants to use.
>
> * I don’t agree with you that having a single organization namespace is
> better than supporting hierarchies, and that the MediaWiki model is the
> best.
>
> * The format you mentioned above,
> i.e. [[MyExamplePage>>doc:MyExamplePage.WebHome]] is the canonical format.
> You can drop “doc:” (in which case XWiki assumes you reference a doc by
> default). It’s there because we support lots of various other references:
> urls, mailto, unc, etc. See the syntax guide for more.
>
> * The only complaint I know of (before XWiki 7.2) about the format of our
> links is that some user would have liked us to use the “/“ separator
> instead of “.”, e.g. [[label>>space/page]] instead of [[label>>space.page]].
>
> * XWiki supports tags and a Tag UI if you wish to have various views for
> wiki pages. Note to self: we should add a “tag” parameter to the
> {{documents/}} macro (
> http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Extension/Documents+Macro) to
> list all docs with a given tag.
>
> * Last, this feature of Nested Spaces and Nested Pages is very new
> (started in XWiki 7.2 and we’re still tuning it). It’ll take some time more
> for us to iron out all the wrinkles that result from it.
>
> * We’re missing some documentation to explain all this. We’re also missing
> autocompletion of link references in the wiki editor to make it easy to
> link to existing pages.
>
> Hope it helps.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> > Anton Hughes
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list
> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>


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Re: Request: make linking easy

Hamster
In reply to this post by Anton Hughes
Hi Anton,

Perhaps WikiWords Extension is something you can look at?

@devs: with the recent changes with all the Nested Pages, does the WikiWords Extension still work?
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Re: Request: make linking easy

vmassol
Administrator
Hi Hamster,

On 2 Dec 2015 at 10:43:36, Hamster ([hidden email](mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:

> Hi Anton,
>  
> Perhaps WikiWords Extension
>  
> is something you can look at?
>  
> @devs: with the recent changes with all the Nested Pages, does the
> WikiWords Extension
>  
> still work?

It’s not impacted. It only recognizes wiki words and create a reference to a page named after the wikiword so it’s not related to NS

Thanks
-Vincent

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Re: Request: make linking easy

Hamster
Thanks for clearing that up!
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Re: Request: make linking easy

Miroslav Galajda
How does the WikiWord actually work?
How can I write the word (the page name) which is from the nested space?
Does it have some configuration for custom words, e.g. mapping word or
expression to the page or external link?

Thank you.

On 2 December 2015 at 15:14, Hamster <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks for clearing that up!
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://xwiki.475771.n2.nabble.com/Request-make-linking-easy-tp7596995p7597054.html
> Sent from the XWiki- Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
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>
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Re: Request: make linking easy

vmassol
Administrator
Hi Miroslav,


On 2 Dec 2015 at 15:50:48, Miroslav Galajda ([hidden email](mailto:[hidden email])) wrote:

> How does the WikiWord actually work?
> How can I write the word (the page name) which is from the nested space?
> Does it have some configuration for custom words, e.g. mapping word or
> expression to the page or external link?

It doesn’t work like this right now. When a wikiword is found, the target page is located in the current space with the name of the wikiword.

For example, if I’m on Sandbox.SomePage and I put in content:

"
Hello BeautifulWiki 


then BeautifulWiki will point to page Sandbox.BeautifulWiki

Thanks
-Vincent


> Thank you.
>  
> On 2 December 2015 at 15:14, Hamster wrote:
>  
> > Thanks for clearing that up!
> >
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