State of the XWiki Community

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
18 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

State of the XWiki Community

Sergiu Dumitriu-2
Hi Community,

The following message expresses my personal opinions as a member of the
community, so it might not be entirely accurate. The goal is to start a
discussion about how can we attract more contributors and committers to
the XWiki open source project, and will address three main subjects:

- the current state of the community and committers
- the possibility of joining or creating a non-profit foundation to
govern XWiki
- the possibility of using Fundry as a way for users to fund XWiki
development

-----
Status of the community

At the start of a new year, it's time to look a bit at the status of
XWiki, the project and the community.

XWiki was created by Ludovic Dubost as an open source project from the
start. Later, he founded a commercial company (XWiki SAS, back then
XPertNet SaRL) as a way to financially support the development of the
product. It kept the project entirely open, unlike the many false open
source companies that only offer a basic open source version, forcing
people to buy the commercial one (the open core model), or that only
release the source code while still doing behind-the-curtains
development, or that almost completely ignore the outside community.

See the XWiki SAS values: http://purl.org/xwiki/sas-values and
manifesto: http://purl.org/xwiki/sas-manifesto

The committers, elected for their merit, and not made automatically as
employees of the company, always tried to maintain a healthy community
and attract new contributors/committers. Thus, the XWiki software is
developed not by the XWiki SAS company, but by the XWiki community.
http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/Community/ has a lot of information about
the community, and the development process.

As of January 2011, there are 16 core committers, 12 of which are XWiki
SAS employees, and 3 are or were related to XWiki SAS one way or another.
http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/Community/HallOfFame#HCoreCommitters

A big part of the development is aided by non-committer members of the
community, either by providing patches, testing and reporting bugs,
requesting new features, providing feedback, answering on the mailing
lists, etc. As committers, we tried to listen to the community when
developing the project, but as paid employees we have to also listen to
the company requirements. With a limited manpower it's very hard to
evolve as fast as the community would want, or in all the directions
that the community wants. And we welcome any help here.

The project is healthy, we have regular and frequent releases, with
visible progress with each new release (see Vincent's statistics on
http://massol.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/Blog/XWikiIn2010 for more details).
Still, I'm a little disappointed with the development speed. Lately, out
of the 16 committers on average about 3-4 are actually available for
platform development during a day.

* How can we help speed up the growth of the community?
* How can we attract more developers outside XWiki SAS?

-----
Joining/forming a free software foundation

One possible reason while so few people are willing to become committers
could be that XWiki SAS might appear to over-control the software, and a
clear non-profit foundation on top of XWiki might make it more obvious
that XWiki is a true open source project, and anybody is welcome to join.

XWiki SAS is a member of the OW2 consortium http://ow2.org/ , and this
membership also extends a bit to the XWiki project. OW2 used to host all
our infrastructure, SVN, mailing lists, downloads... Currently only the
official downloads linked from the main download page are hosted on OW2
servers, as we've gradually moved parts of the development
infrastructure on servers provided by XWiki SAS.

While OW2 is a great home for XWiki SAS, it's mostly a company
consortium, not a software development foundation. The most development
help coming from OW2 consists of research projects involving both OW2
and XWiki SAS, thus the OW2 membership doesn't bring much value when it
comes to code.

One option is to form an XWiki non-profit Foundation, which will govern
all XWiki-related software development. The main disadvantage would be
that there's a risk that it won't make any difference at all, while
adding the burden of more paperwork. This is where your opinion comes
into play, since there's no point in doing all the hard work if the
community doesn't see a clear benefit in it.

The Apache Foundation has the huge disadvantage that it requires a
license change, but it's a very well known home for software
development, with good visibility.

The Software Freedom Conservancy has been getting a lot of press
recently, since several high profile projects joined it. It's got a few
top-notch projects under its hood, so XWiki would be among well known
projects in there.

A smaller, compatible alternative is Codehaus, but I'm not convinced
they would make a difference with respect to our needs.

Other foundations aren't really suited for XWiki, since they either
don't bring value to the community because they don't foster
inter-project collaboration (SourceForge, Google Code), or don't match
the project goals (FSF, GNU, Eclipse, Linux, Mozilla...).

So, some questions in regard to this subject:

* Is there anybody that would like contribute more / become a committer?
* Do users believe that a foundation on top of XWiki will help attract
more developers?

Please note that this is not THE discussion about which foundation to
join, just trying to see if there is a benefit in doing so.

-----
Supporting code development

Becoming a committer requires time, and few people can spend that time
when there's no direct benefit involved. XWiki SAS employees are already
being paid to work with XWiki, so they can contribute to the platform
because the company benefits directly from their work. Employees of
other companies that deal with XWiki do spend time contributing, but
very few actually got to hang around enough to be voted as committers,
although many came close, but stopped short of it.

One way of supporting code development is to contact XWiki SAS and sign
a contract to develop one or more features with a higher priority.

An alternative, which allows to share the cost with other
companies/individuals, is to collaboratively request and support feature
development (crowdfunding), for example through Fundry, a new site
especially designed for this. I've set up an account for XWiki at
https://fundry.com/project/58-xwiki . This is also a good place to
donate to the XWiki project, since there are no visible ways to
financially support the project.

Fundry would allow to gather financial incentives for non-employees to
contribute more code, thus involving the community more in the direction
the software evolves, and attracting more potential contributors.

* Do you (the community) think this is a good idea and it would help?
* Would you be willing to contribute/donate to the project?

-----

Please provide us with your feedback, so we can advance on these topics.

Thanks,
--
Sergiu Dumitriu
http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
_______________________________________________
users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: State of the XWiki Community

Roman Muntyanu
Hi Sergiu,
 
 Thanks for the interesting story :)
 
 
* How can we help speed up the growth of the community?
 Continue doing this brilliant work you do. And ...
 
 
* How can we attract more developers outside XWiki SAS?
... here's a list of some ideas (might contain crazy ones)
 * First thing is to bring more users (see http://www.google.com/trends?q=xwiki%2C+foswiki%2C+twiki%2C+confluence ) among which new developers shall emerge
 * At many points XWiki is more powerful than Confluence, outline them
 * You have to populate the knowledge about XWiki to the Community
 * If you want to attract developers, advertize among developers
 * Advertize with features developers and development teams like
 * Probably advertize XWiki (sourceforge, apache, codehaus) through ads
 * Try to convince Apache (or at least projects within Apache you have close relations with), Codehaus etc. to host it's numerous docs on XWiki
 * XWiki functionality as a document storage is more than sufficient. Build more applications on top of it (e.g. agile tools, project management tools) to attract more users. (another e.g. we try to use XWiki for storing all the knowledge about our project, including meetings, user stories etc. It would be nice to bring in some agile features like meeting minutes, product backlog, integration with Jira)
 * Ability to build applications on top of XWiki is its main advantage you have to extend and advertise to a wide community.
 * If I owned a software development company I'd send my developers/managers/architects for internship on XWiki for 3-6 iteration cycles to learn all that cool things you do. Maybe I'm not the only one?

Some concerns
 * Main XWiki competitor is Confluence
 * Unfortunately for XWiki, when one buys Jira - he's likely to buy Confluence
 * Now is the moment, of truth, XWiki either becomes popular, or vanishes in the fight with Confluence (which might start or already started receiving features from XWiki)
 * I really hope that XWiki.org will survive not to be either bought by or turn into a commercial company (like Compass and EHCache were somewhere in the past). It so demotivating for the open-source committer that someone has used his hard and volunteer work to get richer.

Some major points from the story below
 * SearchEngineOptimization matters (http://www.google.com.ua/search?q=wiki+engine)
 * Project Homepage UI matters
 * Project UI matters (and currently its good, keep an eye on it ;) )
 * Ease of installation matters
 * Ease of configuration / Hot configuration (ability to change smth without restarting the server) matters. And currently its the way you go (plugin management module)
 * Modularity / Extensibility (with numerous plug-ins) matter
 * Community (those who are able to support you) matter
 * Documentation / Tutorials matter (thanks for the numerous docs on how to setup and tune XWiki)
 * How easy you input your information matters (WYSIWYG + Document import rock!)
 * Healthy development process matters
 * Being heard by the community is nice
 * Frequent feature-fruitful releases are nice
 
 THE STORY BELOW
 Now I will tell you my story of getting addicted to XWiki.
 We required a wiki for our project and from all of the available choices we initially took FOS Wiki. However having an experience with Attassian Confluence, I neither liked the UI nor syntax. Being a Java developer (Tomcat/JBoss) I as well hated complex installation of that wiki itself as well as plug-ins for it. The structure of that wiki was hard to understand. Funny to mention but most of all I hated how it formats the Java code :)
 Soon after we started using FOS Wiki, having that heavy feeling of something isn't right I did a quick final random poke for other open-source frameworks (preferably Java, where I could develop the feature I miss or patch the bug I find). I must say that XWiki was far not the first one I found but ...
 I was conquered with sweet-as-a-candy design of XWiki site (Toucan Skin at that moment).
 So I quickly downloaded the installer, set it up on my local machine and started getting more and more astonished with the nice features XWiki provided. Just to name few
   * It had more logical (or at least more obvious) organization of documents
   * Eye-pleasing UI
   * Easy installation
   * A ton of plugins and extension
   * All was configurable and in many cases even from UI without the need to restart the server
 Hell, I was even capable to hack (patch) the code colorer library to use styles I wanted (later was added as config parameter)!
   * The syntax 2.0 was nice (again, thanks for the recent emoticons feature :) ) and the code from WYSIWYG editor came out clean and shining.
   * ... and logical addition is the Word documents import (no more download/edit/reupload attachments!!!)
 That was EXACTLY what I was looking for!
 And then I've learned programming abilities of XWiki which made me totally convinced that it's the most advanced open source wiki tool available.
 
 I have subscribed to the mailing list, and followed how the process of development was organized.
 It was another pleasant surprise. Starting from the ability to participate in decisions like voting for/discussing UI/Code enhancements and ending with how often the releases were made and how well iterative time-boxed approach was applied (especially taking into account that team is distributed). Modular structure (obviously inspired by close relationships with Maven ;) ) of the project and how well it has been architected for modularity deserves separate words. From development point of view, your project is Perfect. It would be very nice for a junior developer, junior software architect, junior PM to work in such team to get that knowledge. So one thing you could do is to establish a sort of courses for developers from other companies.
 The community turned out to be responsive and I was able to solve any issue I had with XWiki (quite few I must say).
 I also like the amount and quality of various documentation (from user to development guides) that helped me a lot not to post dummy FAQs on users mailing list.

 Being so fond of XWiki why wouldn't I become a constantly available contributor? In my case the factors are time and inspiration. Most of the time I either come home late and tired or don't have an inspiration. E.g. while I write this message it's far after the midnight on my clock. I would need to be a real geek, to start coding ... whom, I guess, I'm not, like many other XWiki users.
 
 However I do feel there are things (above) that are going to attract people.
 
* Is there anybody that would like contribute more / become a committer?
I wish my employer would send me for internship on XWiki ;)

* Do users believe that a foundation on top of XWiki will help attract more developers?
If the foundation will be responsible ONLY for managing donations that would go to donation-driven feature development. But you don't need a whole foundation for it, right?
 
* Do you (the community) think this is a good idea and it would help?
It is definitely attractive. Yet code quality might suffer, because employee working for money is different from open source contributor working for beauty

* Would you be willing to contribute/donate to the project?
Money donation did cross my mind when I opened Sergiu's page :)
Well, I try to contribute to XWiki when I have time/inspiration (like this post). Not more nor less.

Dear reader, hope you did not get too bored by now. Thanks for reading it all.

Regards,
 Roman
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: State of the XWiki Community

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by Sergiu Dumitriu-2
Hi Sergiu/everyone,

See below.

On Jan 13, 2011, at 9:53 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:

> Hi Community,
>
> The following message expresses my personal opinions as a member of the
> community, so it might not be entirely accurate. The goal is to start a
> discussion about how can we attract more contributors and committers to
> the XWiki open source project, and will address three main subjects:
>
> - the current state of the community and committers
> - the possibility of joining or creating a non-profit foundation to
> govern XWiki
> - the possibility of using Fundry as a way for users to fund XWiki
> development
>
> -----
> Status of the community
>
> At the start of a new year, it's time to look a bit at the status of
> XWiki, the project and the community.
>
> XWiki was created by Ludovic Dubost as an open source project from the
> start. Later, he founded a commercial company (XWiki SAS, back then
> XPertNet SaRL) as a way to financially support the development of the
> product. It kept the project entirely open, unlike the many false open
> source companies that only offer a basic open source version, forcing
> people to buy the commercial one (the open core model), or that only
> release the source code while still doing behind-the-curtains
> development, or that almost completely ignore the outside community.
>
> See the XWiki SAS values: http://purl.org/xwiki/sas-values and
> manifesto: http://purl.org/xwiki/sas-manifesto
>
> The committers, elected for their merit, and not made automatically as
> employees of the company, always tried to maintain a healthy community
> and attract new contributors/committers. Thus, the XWiki software is
> developed not by the XWiki SAS company, but by the XWiki community.
> http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/Community/ has a lot of information about
> the community, and the development process.
>
> As of January 2011, there are 16 core committers, 12 of which are XWiki
> SAS employees, and 3 are or were related to XWiki SAS one way or another.
> http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/Community/HallOfFame#HCoreCommitters

I've just updated this page and added an Affiliation column for increased transparency:
http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/HallOfFame

> A big part of the development is aided by non-committer members of the
> community, either by providing patches, testing and reporting bugs,
> requesting new features, providing feedback, answering on the mailing
> lists, etc. As committers, we tried to listen to the community when
> developing the project, but as paid employees we have to also listen to
> the company requirements. With a limited manpower it's very hard to
> evolve as fast as the community would want, or in all the directions
> that the community wants. And we welcome any help here.
>
> The project is healthy, we have regular and frequent releases, with
> visible progress with each new release (see Vincent's statistics on
> http://massol.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/Blog/XWikiIn2010 for more details).
> Still, I'm a little disappointed with the development speed. Lately, out
> of the 16 committers on average about 3-4 are actually available for
> platform development during a day.
>
> * How can we help speed up the growth of the community?

Find a way to sponsor more people? :)

IMO the community is growing fast. I think you mean the development team (committership), right?

> * How can we attract more developers outside XWiki SAS?

(Here's below a repost to an internal mail where we were discussing about whether the bar is too high or not to contribute to xwiki's development, with slight modifications)

"
I think we need to separate 2 areas:
* core contributions
* extension contributions

This is the same in all open source project (linux core, vs peripheral things). The level of quality asked is not the same for core contributions vs extension contributions or peripheral domains (non core). I doubt very much that the linux kernel accepts contributions that don't have a very good quality level for example. Same for Firefox or any other Mozilla project.

In practice I don't think we can expect people external to XWiki SAS or more generally people not paid to work on XWiki for 2 reasons:
1) there are committers paid to work daily on them and as such they progress much faster than anyone outside could (since those person outside are not paid for that and don't have extensible time - they do it in their free time - it's almost impossible to follow code and discussions).
2) it requires a high quality level

I'm always surprised and have a great admiration when people succeed in contributing to core things, like Sergiu in his time, Denis and Caleb.

Also I think that most open source project have a very small number of people who are actually core committers (you can count them on  one or 2 hands). When you see open source projects with tons of contributors they're actually contributing to peripheral things like: translations, themes, extensions, etc.

What I've been trying to organize since I joined the XWiki project is to transform a huge monolithic core into separate domains and submodules in order to make contributing easier. The smaller our core becomes and the larger our extensions become and the easier it'll be to contribute to them IMO.

We do care about all contributions but the problem is that if you look at the patches we have in JIRA (there are 40:http://jira.xwiki.org/jira/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?mode=hide&requestId=10191) the huge majority cannot be applied either because they're too generic, missing tests, have no documentation, etc. The only way to apply them is to spend a considerable amount of time (usually about 3-4 more time than the contributor himself/herself has spent). Should we just commit stuff even if there are no tests, it's not been validated, doesn't follow our best practices, has no documentation, etc? I'd say no since it's increasing our technical debt and we (committers) will have to pay it (it's always paid).

So there are several things we can do IMO:
1) architecture improvement:
- Continue moving stuff out of xwiki-core into modules and continue making our architecture modular and move things out of the core.
- With the upcoming extension manager we'll make a giant leap in that direction since we'll be able to remove bundled extensions from the core and instead allow them to be installed by the user using the extension manager, at runtime.
- Add interface extensions so that contributors can contribute UI extensions to XWiki
2) continue reviewing/apply patches when they arrive
3) redesign xwiki.org to make it more participative. See the proposal made for the contrbution area, making contributors more visible (http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/XWikiOrgProposal2)
4) improve the dev documentation on xwiki.org for contributors
5) create a foundation (although I'm not sure it'll help attract developers but it's good anyway to have)
6) move to git. This could make it easier for contributors to have their branches easily without having to contribute back work to the project (but the downside is that contributors may feel less tempted to contribute back stuff)
7) continue promoting contrib.xwiki.org which is an area where we accept all contributions without any check
8) set up a bounty system where we advertise bounties. I'm still a bit skeptical about it (since it means we'll need to find committers with the time to review contributions) but there's only one way to find if it could work.

Then there are more radical ideas:
9) Join another forge (Eclipse, Apache, Codehaus, etc)
10) Merge with another wiki project (for example jspwiki at apache)
11) find more money to be able to pay for more developers. This could mean accepting donation through the Foundation to pay for bounties for example

We could also propose to more contributors to become committers. Do we have people in mind that we think could be committers right now?

The only thing I'm personally not ready to do right now (unless convinced otherwise) is to reduce our quality rules and accept any contributions independently of their quality. If some of you think we should do this please raise it and we can discuss it. Brest is to discuss it practice by practice.

To be honest I think our quality level is not particularly high. We have lots of commits done without any test for example.

Sonar provides a good view of the quality (Globally we seem to be improving on most fronts but not that much):
http://nemo.sonarsource.org/dashboard/index/178313
"

> -----
> Joining/forming a free software foundation
>
> One possible reason while so few people are willing to become committers
> could be that XWiki SAS might appear to over-control the software, and a
> clear non-profit foundation on top of XWiki might make it more obvious
> that XWiki is a true open source project, and anybody is welcome to join.

I don't think this is the case but I may be wrong. IMO it's more that XWiki SAS sponsors a lot of devs to work full time on XWiki dev thus making it less needed for others to contribute to get what they need (they just have to wait for it to become available in the product)...

> XWiki SAS is a member of the OW2 consortium http://ow2.org/ , and this
> membership also extends a bit to the XWiki project. OW2 used to host all
> our infrastructure, SVN, mailing lists, downloads... Currently only the
> official downloads linked from the main download page are hosted on OW2
> servers, as we've gradually moved parts of the development
> infrastructure on servers provided by XWiki SAS.
>
> While OW2 is a great home for XWiki SAS, it's mostly a company
> consortium, not a software development foundation. The most development
> help coming from OW2 consists of research projects involving both OW2
> and XWiki SAS, thus the OW2 membership doesn't bring much value when it
> comes to code.
>
> One option is to form an XWiki non-profit Foundation, which will govern
> all XWiki-related software development. The main disadvantage would be
> that there's a risk that it won't make any difference at all, while
> adding the burden of more paperwork. This is where your opinion comes
> into play, since there's no point in doing all the hard work if the
> community doesn't see a clear benefit in it.

+1 for creating a Foundation for me. It has some advantages:

* Clearer separation between XWiki SAS and the XWiki open source project (even though the roles and boundaries are already very clear). It would help for example for Ludovic Dubost (who owns the XWiki mark) to license it to the community)
* Ability to accept donations
* Have an official entity that we can use in events, marketing messages for the open source project, etc
* Ability to have people representing the full ecosystem at the board of the foundation (we'd need to decide on a governance model)

> The Apache Foundation has the huge disadvantage that it requires a
> license change, but it's a very well known home for software
> development, with good visibility.

Yes visibility would be multiplied x10 but it's has its drawbacks too:
* license change
* slower pace (when requiring infra softare or machines for example)
* more "bureaucratic"

> The Software Freedom Conservancy has been getting a lot of press
> recently, since several high profile projects joined it. It's got a few
> top-notch projects under its hood, so XWiki would be among well known
> projects in there.

Would need to check this out, never heard about it.

> A smaller, compatible alternative is Codehaus, but I'm not convinced
> they would make a difference with respect to our needs.

Agreed.

> Other foundations aren't really suited for XWiki, since they either
> don't bring value to the community because they don't foster
> inter-project collaboration (SourceForge, Google Code), or don't match
> the project goals (FSF, GNU, Eclipse, Linux, Mozilla...).

Except potentially merging the XWiki Rendering engine/WikiModel with Eclipse's WikiText project but that's a specific topic in itself.
BTW that rendering engine could also be proposed to the ASF too should we want that, we don't have to move the whole XWiki project.

> So, some questions in regard to this subject:
>
> * Is there anybody that would like contribute more / become a committer?
> * Do users believe that a foundation on top of XWiki will help attract
> more developers?
>
> Please note that this is not THE discussion about which foundation to
> join, just trying to see if there is a benefit in doing so.
>
> -----
> Supporting code development
>
> Becoming a committer requires time, and few people can spend that time
> when there's no direct benefit involved. XWiki SAS employees are already
> being paid to work with XWiki, so they can contribute to the platform
> because the company benefits directly from their work. Employees of
> other companies that deal with XWiki do spend time contributing, but
> very few actually got to hang around enough to be voted as committers,
> although many came close, but stopped short of it.
>
> One way of supporting code development is to contact XWiki SAS and sign
> a contract to develop one or more features with a higher priority.
>
> An alternative, which allows to share the cost with other
> companies/individuals, is to collaboratively request and support feature
> development (crowdfunding), for example through Fundry, a new site
> especially designed for this. I've set up an account for XWiki at
> https://fundry.com/project/58-xwiki . This is also a good place to
> donate to the XWiki project, since there are no visible ways to
> financially support the project.
>
> Fundry would allow to gather financial incentives for non-employees to
> contribute more code, thus involving the community more in the direction
> the software evolves, and attracting more potential contributors.
>
> * Do you (the community) think this is a good idea and it would help?
> * Would you be willing to contribute/donate to the project?

+1 for setting up that Foundry/Bounty system from me. Where do the money goes to? Do they handle that (playing the man in the middle)?

Thanks
-Vincent

> -----
>
> Please provide us with your feedback, so we can advance on these topics.
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Sergiu Dumitriu
> http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
_______________________________________________
users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: State of the XWiki Community

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by Roman Muntyanu
Hi Roman,

Thanks a lot for your feedback. Lots of good points.

It's also good to see that you like the way XWiki is being developed! :)

At some point, we should put on a wiki page all the good ideas that emerged from this thread.

Thanks
-Vincent

On Jan 19, 2011, at 3:15 PM, coldserenity wrote:

>
> Hi Sergiu,
>
> Thanks for the interesting story :)
>
>
> * How can we help speed up the growth of the community?
> Continue doing this brilliant work you do. And ...
>
>
> * How can we attract more developers outside XWiki SAS?
> ... here's a list of some ideas (might contain crazy ones)
> * First thing is to bring more users (see
> http://www.google.com/trends?q=xwiki%2C+foswiki%2C+twiki%2C+confluence )
> among which new developers shall emerge
> * At many points XWiki is more powerful than Confluence, outline them
> * You have to populate the knowledge about XWiki to the Community
> * If you want to attract developers, advertize among developers
> * Advertize with features developers and development teams like
> * Probably advertize XWiki (sourceforge, apache, codehaus) through ads
> * Try to convince Apache (or at least projects within Apache you have close
> relations with), Codehaus etc. to host it's numerous docs on XWiki
> * XWiki functionality as a document storage is more than sufficient. Build
> more applications on top of it (e.g. agile tools, project management tools)
> to attract more users. (another e.g. we try to use XWiki for storing all the
> knowledge about our project, including meetings, user stories etc. It would
> be nice to bring in some agile features like meeting minutes, product
> backlog, integration with Jira)
> * Ability to build applications on top of XWiki is its main advantage you
> have to extend and advertise to a wide community.
> * If I owned a software development company I'd send my
> developers/managers/architects for internship on XWiki for 3-6 iteration
> cycles to learn all that cool things you do. Maybe I'm not the only one?
>
> Some concerns
> * Main XWiki competitor is Confluence
> * Unfortunately for XWiki, when one buys Jira - he's likely to buy
> Confluence
> * Now is the moment, of truth, XWiki either becomes popular, or vanishes in
> the fight with Confluence (which might start or already started receiving
> features from XWiki)
> * I really hope that XWiki.org will survive not to be either bought by or
> turn into a commercial company (like Compass and EHCache were somewhere in
> the past). It so demotivating for the open-source committer that someone has
> used his hard and volunteer work to get richer.
>
> Some major points from the story below
> * SearchEngineOptimization matters
> (http://www.google.com.ua/search?q=wiki+engine)
> * Project Homepage UI matters
> * Project UI matters (and currently its good, keep an eye on it ;) )
> * Ease of installation matters
> * Ease of configuration / Hot configuration (ability to change smth without
> restarting the server) matters. And currently its the way you go (plugin
> management module)
> * Modularity / Extensibility (with numerous plug-ins) matter
> * Community (those who are able to support you) matter
> * Documentation / Tutorials matter (thanks for the numerous docs on how to
> setup and tune XWiki)
> * How easy you input your information matters (WYSIWYG + Document import
> rock!)
> * Healthy development process matters
> * Being heard by the community is nice
> * Frequent feature-fruitful releases are nice
>
> THE STORY BELOW
> Now I will tell you my story of getting addicted to XWiki.
> We required a wiki for our project and from all of the available choices we
> initially took FOS Wiki. However having an experience with Attassian
> Confluence, I neither liked the UI nor syntax. Being a Java developer
> (Tomcat/JBoss) I as well hated complex installation of that wiki itself as
> well as plug-ins for it. The structure of that wiki was hard to understand.
> Funny to mention but most of all I hated how it formats the Java code :)
> Soon after we started using FOS Wiki, having that heavy feeling of
> something isn't right I did a quick final random poke for other open-source
> frameworks (preferably Java, where I could develop the feature I miss or
> patch the bug I find). I must say that XWiki was far not the first one I
> found but ...
> I was conquered with sweet-as-a-candy design of XWiki site (Toucan Skin at
> that moment).
> So I quickly downloaded the installer, set it up on my local machine and
> started getting more and more astonished with the nice features XWiki
> provided. Just to name few
>   * It had more logical (or at least more obvious) organization of
> documents
>   * Eye-pleasing UI
>   * Easy installation
>   * A ton of plugins and extension
>   * All was configurable and in many cases even from UI without the need to
> restart the server
> Hell, I was even capable to hack (patch) the code colorer library to use
> styles I wanted (later was added as config parameter)!
>   * The syntax 2.0 was nice (again, thanks for the recent emoticons feature
> :) ) and the code from WYSIWYG editor came out clean and shining.
>   * ... and logical addition is the Word documents import (no more
> download/edit/reupload attachments!!!)
> That was EXACTLY what I was looking for!
> And then I've learned programming abilities of XWiki which made me totally
> convinced that it's the most advanced open source wiki tool available.
>
> I have subscribed to the mailing list, and followed how the process of
> development was organized.
> It was another pleasant surprise. Starting from the ability to participate
> in decisions like voting for/discussing UI/Code enhancements and ending with
> how often the releases were made and how well iterative time-boxed approach
> was applied (especially taking into account that team is distributed).
> Modular structure (obviously inspired by close relationships with Maven ;) )
> of the project and how well it has been architected for modularity deserves
> separate words. From development point of view, your project is Perfect. It
> would be very nice for a junior developer, junior software architect, junior
> PM to work in such team to get that knowledge. So one thing you could do is
> to establish a sort of courses for developers from other companies.
> The community turned out to be responsive and I was able to solve any issue
> I had with XWiki (quite few I must say).
> I also like the amount and quality of various documentation (from user to
> development guides) that helped me a lot not to post dummy FAQs on users
> mailing list.
>
> Being so fond of XWiki why wouldn't I become a constantly available
> contributor? In my case the factors are time and inspiration. Most of the
> time I either come home late and tired or don't have an inspiration. E.g.
> while I write this message it's far after the midnight on my clock. I would
> need to be a real geek, to start coding ... whom, I guess, I'm not, like
> many other XWiki users.
>
> However I do feel there are things (above) that are going to attract
> people.
>
>
> * Is there anybody that would like contribute more / become a committer?
> I wish my employer would send me for internship on XWiki ;)
>
>
> * Do users believe that a foundation on top of XWiki will help attract more
> developers?
> If the foundation will be responsible ONLY for managing donations that would
> go to donation-driven feature development. But you don't need a whole
> foundation for it, right?
>
>
> * Do you (the community) think this is a good idea and it would help?
> It is definitely attractive. Yet code quality might suffer, because employee
> working for money is different from open source contributor working for
> beauty
>
>
> * Would you be willing to contribute/donate to the project?
> Money donation did cross my mind when I opened Sergiu's page :)
> Well, I try to contribute to XWiki when I have time/inspiration (like this
> post). Not more nor less.
>
> Dear reader, hope you did not get too bored by now. Thanks for reading it
> all.
>
> Regards,
> Roman
> --
> View this message in context: http://xwiki.475771.n2.nabble.com/State-of-the-XWiki-Community-tp5919692p5939808.html
> Sent from the XWiki- Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users

_______________________________________________
users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: State of the XWiki Community

Caleb James DeLisle
In reply to this post by vmassol
This is a interesting conversation. I have been thinking recently about what motivates people to
contribute to free software projects. What I have come up with is this:
1. They need it to do _that_.
2. If they contribute code then their contribution will be maintained with the trunk (perhaps even
improved), if they try to maintain a patch set in-house, they will be forced to make changes to it
each time a new version comes out. IMO this is a big motivator for people to clean up their code and
meet project standards.


On 01/27/2011 08:46 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:

> Hi Sergiu/everyone,
>
> See below.
>
> On Jan 13, 2011, at 9:53 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:
>
>> Hi Community,
>>
>> The following message expresses my personal opinions as a member of the
>> community, so it might not be entirely accurate. The goal is to start a
>> discussion about how can we attract more contributors and committers to
>> the XWiki open source project, and will address three main subjects:
>>
>> - the current state of the community and committers
>> - the possibility of joining or creating a non-profit foundation to
>> govern XWiki
>> - the possibility of using Fundry as a way for users to fund XWiki
>> development
>>
>> -----
>> Status of the community
>>
>> At the start of a new year, it's time to look a bit at the status of
>> XWiki, the project and the community.
>>
>> XWiki was created by Ludovic Dubost as an open source project from the
>> start. Later, he founded a commercial company (XWiki SAS, back then
>> XPertNet SaRL) as a way to financially support the development of the
>> product. It kept the project entirely open, unlike the many false open
>> source companies that only offer a basic open source version, forcing
>> people to buy the commercial one (the open core model), or that only
>> release the source code while still doing behind-the-curtains
>> development, or that almost completely ignore the outside community.
>>
>> See the XWiki SAS values: http://purl.org/xwiki/sas-values and
>> manifesto: http://purl.org/xwiki/sas-manifesto
>>
>> The committers, elected for their merit, and not made automatically as
>> employees of the company, always tried to maintain a healthy community
>> and attract new contributors/committers. Thus, the XWiki software is
>> developed not by the XWiki SAS company, but by the XWiki community.
>> http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/Community/ has a lot of information about
>> the community, and the development process.
>>
>> As of January 2011, there are 16 core committers, 12 of which are XWiki
>> SAS employees, and 3 are or were related to XWiki SAS one way or another.
>> http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/Community/HallOfFame#HCoreCommitters
>
> I've just updated this page and added an Affiliation column for increased transparency:
> http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/HallOfFame
>
>> A big part of the development is aided by non-committer members of the
>> community, either by providing patches, testing and reporting bugs,
>> requesting new features, providing feedback, answering on the mailing
>> lists, etc. As committers, we tried to listen to the community when
>> developing the project, but as paid employees we have to also listen to
>> the company requirements. With a limited manpower it's very hard to
>> evolve as fast as the community would want, or in all the directions
>> that the community wants. And we welcome any help here.
>>
>> The project is healthy, we have regular and frequent releases, with
>> visible progress with each new release (see Vincent's statistics on
>> http://massol.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/Blog/XWikiIn2010 for more details).
>> Still, I'm a little disappointed with the development speed. Lately, out
>> of the 16 committers on average about 3-4 are actually available for
>> platform development during a day.
>>
>> * How can we help speed up the growth of the community?
>
> Find a way to sponsor more people? :)
>
> IMO the community is growing fast. I think you mean the development team (committership), right?
>
>> * How can we attract more developers outside XWiki SAS?
>
> (Here's below a repost to an internal mail where we were discussing about whether the bar is too high or not to contribute to xwiki's development, with slight modifications)
>
> "
> I think we need to separate 2 areas:
> * core contributions
> * extension contributions
>
> This is the same in all open source project (linux core, vs peripheral things). The level of quality asked is not the same for core contributions vs extension contributions or peripheral domains (non core). I doubt very much that the linux kernel accepts contributions that don't have a very good quality level for example. Same for Firefox or any other Mozilla project.


My understanding is Linux recklessly breaks old api at the internal/modular level. Given #2 (top),
our tiptoeing through deprecation/migration processes may actually harm us by encouraging people to
keep their modifications secret.


>
> In practice I don't think we can expect people external to XWiki SAS or more generally people not paid to work on XWiki for 2 reasons:
> 1) there are committers paid to work daily on them and as such they progress much faster than anyone outside could (since those person outside are not paid for that and don't have extensible time - they do it in their free time - it's almost impossible to follow code and discussions).
> 2) it requires a high quality level
>
> I'm always surprised and have a great admiration when people succeed in contributing to core things, like Sergiu in his time, Denis and Caleb.
>
> Also I think that most open source project have a very small number of people who are actually core committers (you can count them on  one or 2 hands). When you see open source projects with tons of contributors they're actually contributing to peripheral things like: translations, themes, extensions, etc.
>
> What I've been trying to organize since I joined the XWiki project is to transform a huge monolithic core into separate domains and submodules in order to make contributing easier. The smaller our core becomes and the larger our extensions become and the easier it'll be to contribute to them IMO.

Nobody will want to contribute to a module unless they use it. A question I think we should all be
asking is:
"I have a server with linux and lighttpd, mysql, php. I have a java vm on the server but it's not
being used. I am having a problem with bots signing up automatically. I don't need a wiki, I just
need a better captcha engine. What can XWiki do for me, and how can I make that happen from my php
registration script?"

>
> We do care about all contributions but the problem is that if you look at the patches we have in JIRA (there are 40:http://jira.xwiki.org/jira/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?mode=hide&requestId=10191) the huge majority cannot be applied either because they're too generic, missing tests, have no documentation, etc. The only way to apply them is to spend a considerable amount of time (usually about 3-4 more time than the contributor himself/herself has spent). Should we just commit stuff even if there are no tests, it's not been validated, doesn't follow our best practices, has no documentation, etc? I'd say no since it's increasing our technical debt and we (committers) will have to pay it (it's always paid).
>
> So there are several things we can do IMO:
> 1) architecture improvement:
> - Continue moving stuff out of xwiki-core into modules and continue making our architecture modular and move things out of the core.
> - With the upcoming extension manager we'll make a giant leap in that direction since we'll be able to remove bundled extensions from the core and instead allow them to be installed by the user using the extension manager, at runtime.
> - Add interface extensions so that contributors can contribute UI extensions to XWiki
> 2) continue reviewing/apply patches when they arrive
> 3) redesign xwiki.org to make it more participative. See the proposal made for the contrbution area, making contributors more visible (http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/XWikiOrgProposal2)
> 4) improve the dev documentation on xwiki.org for contributors

> 5) create a foundation (although I'm not sure it'll help attract developers but it's good anyway to have)

A foundation is a good idea if it has a clear goal. Incubating new projects is a great goal but
XWiki is not really a new project so I think a foundation for maintaining it would be seen as a bit
of a ruse.

> 6) move to git. This could make it easier for contributors to have their branches easily without having to contribute back work to the project (but the downside is that contributors may feel less tempted to contribute back stuff)

The people who will contribute the most back to the source are not those who want to drop a wiki on
their desktop and go, they are those who want to mix and match modules with their own and build a
totally new project. Git (and more specifically github) has a great advantage that it allows anyone
to fork a project easily. I favor hosting each core module in a separate github repository where
they can easily be forked, modified, mix-and-matched, real world tested, and proposed for inclusion
back into XWiki itself.

We also need our ECM to support JSR-330 so that people can use our modules with other dependency
injection systems.


> 7) continue promoting contrib.xwiki.org which is an area where we accept all contributions without any check
> 8) set up a bounty system where we advertise bounties. I'm still a bit skeptical about it (since it means we'll need to find committers with the time to review contributions) but there's only one way to find if it could work.

Bounties are not something to be taken lightly since there will inevitably be people who feel ripped
off and they will have to be heard/arbitrated. An idea along a similar line is an "app store" but
since there is no way to make free and open DRM and DRM in general attacks free culture, some
creativity would be needed.

>
> Then there are more radical ideas:
> 9) Join another forge (Eclipse, Apache, Codehaus, etc)
> 10) Merge with another wiki project (for example jspwiki at apache)
> 11) find more money to be able to pay for more developers. This could mean accepting donation through the Foundation to pay for bounties for example
>
> We could also propose to more contributors to become committers. Do we have people in mind that we think could be committers right now?
>
> The only thing I'm personally not ready to do right now (unless convinced otherwise) is to reduce our quality rules and accept any contributions independently of their quality. If some of you think we should do this please raise it and we can discuss it. Brest is to discuss it practice by practice.
>
> To be honest I think our quality level is not particularly high. We have lots of commits done without any test for example.
>
> Sonar provides a good view of the quality (Globally we seem to be improving on most fronts but not that much):
> http://nemo.sonarsource.org/dashboard/index/178313
> "
>
>> -----
>> Joining/forming a free software foundation
>>
>> One possible reason while so few people are willing to become committers
>> could be that XWiki SAS might appear to over-control the software, and a
>> clear non-profit foundation on top of XWiki might make it more obvious
>> that XWiki is a true open source project, and anybody is welcome to join.

Modularity and inviting people to fork (git) will ease any tensions there might be around this.

>
> I don't think this is the case but I may be wrong. IMO it's more that XWiki SAS sponsors a lot of devs to work full time on XWiki dev thus making it less needed for others to contribute to get what they need (they just have to wait for it to become available in the product)...
>
>> XWiki SAS is a member of the OW2 consortium http://ow2.org/ , and this
>> membership also extends a bit to the XWiki project. OW2 used to host all
>> our infrastructure, SVN, mailing lists, downloads... Currently only the
>> official downloads linked from the main download page are hosted on OW2
>> servers, as we've gradually moved parts of the development
>> infrastructure on servers provided by XWiki SAS.
>>
>> While OW2 is a great home for XWiki SAS, it's mostly a company
>> consortium, not a software development foundation. The most development
>> help coming from OW2 consists of research projects involving both OW2
>> and XWiki SAS, thus the OW2 membership doesn't bring much value when it
>> comes to code.
>>
>> One option is to form an XWiki non-profit Foundation, which will govern
>> all XWiki-related software development. The main disadvantage would be
>> that there's a risk that it won't make any difference at all, while
>> adding the burden of more paperwork. This is where your opinion comes
>> into play, since there's no point in doing all the hard work if the
>> community doesn't see a clear benefit in it.
>
> +1 for creating a Foundation for me. It has some advantages:
>
> * Clearer separation between XWiki SAS and the XWiki open source project (even though the roles and boundaries are already very clear). It would help for example for Ludovic Dubost (who owns the XWiki mark) to license it to the community)
> * Ability to accept donations
> * Have an official entity that we can use in events, marketing messages for the open source project, etc
> * Ability to have people representing the full ecosystem at the board of the foundation (we'd need to decide on a governance model)
>
>> The Apache Foundation has the huge disadvantage that it requires a
>> license change, but it's a very well known home for software
>> development, with good visibility.
>
> Yes visibility would be multiplied x10 but it's has its drawbacks too:
> * license change
> * slower pace (when requiring infra softare or machines for example)
> * more "bureaucratic"
>
>> The Software Freedom Conservancy has been getting a lot of press
>> recently, since several high profile projects joined it. It's got a few
>> top-notch projects under its hood, so XWiki would be among well known
>> projects in there.
>
> Would need to check this out, never heard about it.
>
>> A smaller, compatible alternative is Codehaus, but I'm not convinced
>> they would make a difference with respect to our needs.
>
> Agreed.
>
>> Other foundations aren't really suited for XWiki, since they either
>> don't bring value to the community because they don't foster
>> inter-project collaboration (SourceForge, Google Code), or don't match
>> the project goals (FSF, GNU, Eclipse, Linux, Mozilla...).
>
> Except potentially merging the XWiki Rendering engine/WikiModel with Eclipse's WikiText project but that's a specific topic in itself.
> BTW that rendering engine could also be proposed to the ASF too should we want that, we don't have to move the whole XWiki project.
>
>> So, some questions in regard to this subject:
>>
>> * Is there anybody that would like contribute more / become a committer?
>> * Do users believe that a foundation on top of XWiki will help attract
>> more developers?
>>
>> Please note that this is not THE discussion about which foundation to
>> join, just trying to see if there is a benefit in doing so.
>>
>> -----
>> Supporting code development
>>
>> Becoming a committer requires time, and few people can spend that time
>> when there's no direct benefit involved. XWiki SAS employees are already
>> being paid to work with XWiki, so they can contribute to the platform
>> because the company benefits directly from their work. Employees of
>> other companies that deal with XWiki do spend time contributing, but
>> very few actually got to hang around enough to be voted as committers,
>> although many came close, but stopped short of it.
>>
>> One way of supporting code development is to contact XWiki SAS and sign
>> a contract to develop one or more features with a higher priority.
>>
>> An alternative, which allows to share the cost with other
>> companies/individuals, is to collaboratively request and support feature
>> development (crowdfunding), for example through Fundry, a new site
>> especially designed for this. I've set up an account for XWiki at
>> https://fundry.com/project/58-xwiki . This is also a good place to
>> donate to the XWiki project, since there are no visible ways to
>> financially support the project.
>>
>> Fundry would allow to gather financial incentives for non-employees to
>> contribute more code, thus involving the community more in the direction
>> the software evolves, and attracting more potential contributors.
>>
>> * Do you (the community) think this is a good idea and it would help?
>> * Would you be willing to contribute/donate to the project?
>
> +1 for setting up that Foundry/Bounty system from me. Where do the money goes to? Do they handle that (playing the man in the middle)?
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>> -----
>>
>> Please provide us with your feedback, so we can advance on these topics.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --
>> Sergiu Dumitriu
>> http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>

_______________________________________________
users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: State of the XWiki Community

Roman Muntyanu
In reply to this post by Sergiu Dumitriu-2
Sorry for animating this old thread, just wanted this to be in one place with the relevant rest.

I've had an idea cross my mind today about promoting XWiki.

It's hard to imagine more or less serious software project nowadays that could survive without:
 * Requirements tracking (Wiki)
 * Issue tracking [with agile tools]
 * Code Review
 * Continuous integration
 * Code metrics tracking
 * IDE integration (Eclipse, IntelliJ IDEA)

In non free-ware world the ultimate ruler is Atlassian set of products.
In the open source world the niche is still not taken.

Yes, there are tools like IceScrum (which btw as well originates from France), XWiki, Jenkins (former Hudson), Review Board (yet it's not on Java), Sonar. There are even integration attempts e.g. Trac (wiki+bug tracking+code review)
But all those tools are either written on different platforms (which is a real maintenance pain) or are not integrated as good as Atlassian set of tools is.

If an Alliance of open-source projects is to emerge one day to cover the gap described above, it would better be XWiki, responsible for the wiki and page rendering part in the integration.

So what XWiki development community could do in this regard, is to take the initiative of establishing this Alliance and leading it towards integration with XWiki.
Current visible set of tasks is
  * Create list of available JAVA (!) open-source project covering different aspects of the integration (e.g. Sonar is best in code metrics, Jenkins - in continuous integration etc.)
  * Contact the development teams of the above projects and negotiate the initiative
  * Analyze code-bases for integration opportunities

Hope you'll find this interesting.

Regards,
  Roman
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: State of the XWiki Community

Roman Muntyanu
In reply to this post by Sergiu Dumitriu-2
Ok, sorry once more for animating the old thread.

 * http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2011/09/15.html = one way to advertise = get more users - the more users you get, the more developers there will be required to maintain installations - the greater chance of gaining new committers.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: State of the XWiki Community

Roman Muntyanu
In reply to this post by Roman Muntyanu
One more Idea to add here:
  * There definitely should be a demo movie recorded depicting the most appealing things in XWiki. A promo video. Rationale: I've been looking for an Agile management tool, and have come across this one http://www.clockingit.com/ it has great features, but the presentation is so awful that you will not really see them until you install the system. Which many users will not do. A user must fall in love (or lust at least) with suggested tool from the "first site", enough to take the chance of installing it. For reference of what I mean under "promo video", I'll name Google as one of the usual best promo-video makers - and its tools (gDocs, Circles, Wave and etc)
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: State of the XWiki Community

Legeinfo
In reply to this post by Sergiu Dumitriu-2
Hi Sergiu!

XWiki is great! This community is very integrative and friendly!

Use the Wiki! 
- for making the documentation: PDF generating of up-to-date user handbook etc..
- for feedback. Use the Wiki, not a mailing list nor a forum software. Integrate everything in the Wiki.

Thanks. I like the spirit of the community!
Volker from Oslo, Norway

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: State of the XWiki Community

Roman Muntyanu
In reply to this post by Roman Muntyanu
Hi,

Today I have noticed that XWiki made it into a commercial solution
 * http://www.cloudbees.com/platform-ecosystem.cb
 * http://www.marketwatch.com/story/cloudbees-adds-mongohq-papertrail-and-xwiki-to-integrated-partner-ecosystem-of-hosted-cloud-services-for-java-developers-2011-10-24
My congratulations! :)

One more observation that XWiki is primarily presented in European counties
on 2012.01.21 following request
http://www.google.com/trends/?q=XWiki&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0
produced
1. Algeria
2. France
3. Morocco
4. Czech Republic
5. Switzerland
6. Belgium
7. Romania
8. Singapore
9. Austria
10. India

I think it's essential to get other markets to increase the community (north America comes first to mind, however taking into consideration number of population - China, India and fast growing Latin America world that might depend)

Regards,
  Roman
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: State of the XWiki Community

vmassol
Administrator

On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:42 AM, coldserenity wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Today I have noticed that XWiki made it into a commercial solution
> * http://www.cloudbees.com/platform-ecosystem.cb
> *
> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/cloudbees-adds-mongohq-papertrail-and-xwiki-to-integrated-partner-ecosystem-of-hosted-cloud-services-for-java-developers-2011-10-24
> My congratulations! :)

Yes this is very cool and did a lot of good advertising for the xwiki project :)

> One more observation that XWiki is primarily presented in European counties
> on 2012.01.21 following request
> http://www.google.com/trends/?q=XWiki&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0
> produced
> 1. Algeria
> 2. France
> 3. Morocco
> 4. Czech Republic
> 5. Switzerland
> 6. Belgium
> 7. Romania
> 8. Singapore
> 9. Austria
> 10. India
>
> I think it's essential to get other markets to increase the community (north
> America comes first to mind, however taking into consideration number of
> population - China, India and fast growing Latin America world that might
> depend)

Indeed, any recommendation?

BTW this is strange since xwiki.org website is in English and there's no reason only people from Europe would use it. Maybe Europe countries use more open source than say in the USA. UK is not in the list either which is strange too.

Thanks
-Vincent

_______________________________________________
users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: State of the XWiki Community

Roman Muntyanu
Well,

   I do have one idea. Appear more in the news.
  Why don't you use that news about XWiki becoming part of cloudbees platform and post it into most popular technical news-sites
 e.g.
  http://www.infoq.com/ (western English-speaking world)
  http://habrahabr.ru/ (Russia and Ukraine)
  http://www.roseindia.net/ (Indian)
  those I recollect off-hand, there are definitely more.

  You could also prepare some case-studies on the technical part of XWiki and on the innovations adopted there, and post the info to the above sites or even to something like https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Vincent Massol
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 13:21 PM
To: XWiki Users
Subject: Re: [xwiki-users] State of the XWiki Community


On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:42 AM, coldserenity wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Today I have noticed that XWiki made it into a commercial solution
> * http://www.cloudbees.com/platform-ecosystem.cb
> *
> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/cloudbees-adds-mongohq-papertrail-and
> -xwiki-to-integrated-partner-ecosystem-of-hosted-cloud-services-for-ja
> va-developers-2011-10-24
> My congratulations! :)

Yes this is very cool and did a lot of good advertising for the xwiki project :)

> One more observation that XWiki is primarily presented in European
> counties on 2012.01.21 following request
> http://www.google.com/trends/?q=XWiki&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0
> produced
> 1. Algeria
> 2. France
> 3. Morocco
> 4. Czech Republic
> 5. Switzerland
> 6. Belgium
> 7. Romania
> 8. Singapore
> 9. Austria
> 10. India
>
> I think it's essential to get other markets to increase the community
> (north America comes first to mind, however taking into consideration
> number of population - China, India and fast growing Latin America
> world that might
> depend)

Indeed, any recommendation?

BTW this is strange since xwiki.org website is in English and there's no reason only people from Europe would use it. Maybe Europe countries use more open source than say in the USA. UK is not in the list either which is strange too.

Thanks
-Vincent

_______________________________________________
users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
_______________________________________________
users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Volunteers needed to write articles (was Re: State of the XWiki Community)

vmassol
Administrator
Hi Roman,

On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:57 PM, Roman Muntyanu wrote:

> Well,
>
>   I do have one idea. Appear more in the news.
>  Why don't you use that news about XWiki becoming part of cloudbees platform and post it into most popular technical news-sites
> e.g.
>  http://www.infoq.com/ (western English-speaking world)
>  http://habrahabr.ru/ (Russia and Ukraine)
>  http://www.roseindia.net/ (Indian)
>  those I recollect off-hand, there are definitely more.
>
>  You could also prepare some case-studies on the technical part of XWiki and on the innovations adopted there, and post the info to the above sites or even to something like https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat 

Indeed.

Except that it's not "you" but "we" (as in "we" the xwiki community). Everyone here is part of the xwiki community.

Note that the XWiki SAS company (http://xwiki.com) does its own marketing (re the cloudbees integration for example it did quite a lot but mostly in French: http://www.google.fr/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=cloudbees+xwiki )

I completely that the XWiki open source project is not very good at doing "tech marketing". Everyone in the community can do it and the XWiki committers too but very few of them do any advertising of XWiki in web site articles, speak at conferences, blog posts, etc. I do quite a few talks but mostly are in France (where I'm based).

So let's see: who would be wiling to write some article about a part of XWiki?

That would be a very nice way for XWiki users to contribute something back to help the open source project.

Thanks
-Vincent

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Vincent Massol
> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 13:21 PM
> To: XWiki Users
> Subject: Re: [xwiki-users] State of the XWiki Community
>
>
> On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:42 AM, coldserenity wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Today I have noticed that XWiki made it into a commercial solution
>> * http://www.cloudbees.com/platform-ecosystem.cb
>> *
>> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/cloudbees-adds-mongohq-papertrail-and
>> -xwiki-to-integrated-partner-ecosystem-of-hosted-cloud-services-for-ja
>> va-developers-2011-10-24
>> My congratulations! :)
>
> Yes this is very cool and did a lot of good advertising for the xwiki project :)
>
>> One more observation that XWiki is primarily presented in European
>> counties on 2012.01.21 following request
>> http://www.google.com/trends/?q=XWiki&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0
>> produced
>> 1. Algeria
>> 2. France
>> 3. Morocco
>> 4. Czech Republic
>> 5. Switzerland
>> 6. Belgium
>> 7. Romania
>> 8. Singapore
>> 9. Austria
>> 10. India
>>
>> I think it's essential to get other markets to increase the community
>> (north America comes first to mind, however taking into consideration
>> number of population - China, India and fast growing Latin America
>> world that might
>> depend)
>
> Indeed, any recommendation?
>
> BTW this is strange since xwiki.org website is in English and there's no reason only people from Europe would use it. Maybe Europe countries use more open source than say in the USA. UK is not in the list either which is strange too.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
_______________________________________________
users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: State of the XWiki Community

Kaya Saman
In reply to this post by Roman Muntyanu
<snip>

>> One more observation that XWiki is primarily presented in European
>> counties on 2012.01.21 following request
>> http://www.google.com/trends/?q=XWiki&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0
>> produced
>> 1. Algeria
>> 2. France
>> 3. Morocco
>> 4. Czech Republic
>> 5. Switzerland
>> 6. Belgium
>> 7. Romania
>> 8. Singapore
>> 9. Austria
>> 10. India
>>
>> I think it's essential to get other markets to increase the community
>> (north America comes first to mind, however taking into consideration
>> number of population - China, India and fast growing Latin America
>> world that might
>> depend)
> Indeed, any recommendation?
>
> BTW this is strange since xwiki.org website is in English and there's no reason only people from Europe would use it. Maybe Europe countries use more open source than say in the USA. UK is not in the list either which is strange too.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>

I agree, hit the US and Canadian markets as Xwiki has the potential to
become huge out there.

Actually living in the UK and then taking a 2 year sabbatical to Turkey
I would have thought that opensource in the US and Canada were going to
be much larger then anywhere in Europe...... since most opensource
projects kind of kick-start out there and there is a huge following of
Linux/BSD among other things.


Turkey I can definitely say is a 99.9999% MS based environment with
almost everybody using Sharepoint as the - wiki, mainsite, collaboration
suite etc.... - actually I went out there as a UNIX engineer and ended
up an MS slave as my first position was as a Sharepoint admin.
Afterwards when I went to en enterprise grade investment company they
even used Sharepoint there even though I tried to politically incline
them towards opensource source especially Xwiki but in their own terms:
'there was no support as mailing lists aren't considered support and
nobody would understand how to work it'.

In the UK while job hunting I do express my knowledge in Xwiki to any
company I come into contact with and again the response usually is 'We
use Sharepoint in this firm'.

It's just unfortunate that I am not in a senior (or any) position here
with a bunch of contacts in the same place as I definitely would try to
get Xwiki on the map! I must sincerely appologies for this as I am a
huge fan of Xwiki - bar the inability to upgrade versions currently but
that's still a work in progress ;-)


But if there's anything I can do to help the project I will in anyway I can!


Regards,


Kaya
_______________________________________________
users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Volunteers needed to write articles (was Re: State of the XWiki Community)

Kaya Saman
In reply to this post by vmassol
On 21/01/12 13:34, Vincent Massol wrote:

> Hi Roman,
>
> On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:57 PM, Roman Muntyanu wrote:
>
>> Well,
>>
>>    I do have one idea. Appear more in the news.
>>   Why don't you use that news about XWiki becoming part of cloudbees platform and post it into most popular technical news-sites
>> e.g.
>>   http://www.infoq.com/ (western English-speaking world)
>>   http://habrahabr.ru/ (Russia and Ukraine)
>>   http://www.roseindia.net/ (Indian)
>>   those I recollect off-hand, there are definitely more.
>>
>>   You could also prepare some case-studies on the technical part of XWiki and on the innovations adopted there, and post the info to the above sites or even to something like https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat
> Indeed.
>
> Except that it's not "you" but "we" (as in "we" the xwiki community). Everyone here is part of the xwiki community.
>
> Note that the XWiki SAS company (http://xwiki.com) does its own marketing (re the cloudbees integration for example it did quite a lot but mostly in French: http://www.google.fr/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=cloudbees+xwiki )
>
> I completely that the XWiki open source project is not very good at doing "tech marketing". Everyone in the community can do it and the XWiki committers too but very few of them do any advertising of XWiki in web site articles, speak at conferences, blog posts, etc. I do quite a few talks but mostly are in France (where I'm based).
>
> So let's see: who would be wiling to write some article about a part of XWiki?
>
> That would be a very nice way for XWiki users to contribute something back to help the open source project.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>
Hi remember me??? Guy with too much free time on his hands.... :-P


I would definitely be willing to contribute but unfortunately I find
myself too much alone in everything I do and apart from Forums and
Mailing lists don't really have any other resources.


I will definitely start my blog off on my wiki site with the Xwiki
projects if that helps but as stated unfortunately I am 'small-time' and
have no connections or industry ties at all :-(


If I could wrangle up a bunch of Xwiki users and start touring the globe
screaming Xwiki slogans along the way I would (don't know how productive
that would be but I hope my point is made).

Well anyway +1 resource here if anyone wants :-)


Regards,

Kaya
_______________________________________________
users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: State of the XWiki Community

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by Kaya Saman

On Jan 21, 2012, at 2:41 PM, Kaya Saman wrote:

> <snip>
>>> One more observation that XWiki is primarily presented in European
>>> counties on 2012.01.21 following request
>>> http://www.google.com/trends/?q=XWiki&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0
>>> produced
>>> 1. Algeria
>>> 2. France
>>> 3. Morocco
>>> 4. Czech Republic
>>> 5. Switzerland
>>> 6. Belgium
>>> 7. Romania
>>> 8. Singapore
>>> 9. Austria
>>> 10. India
>>>
>>> I think it's essential to get other markets to increase the community
>>> (north America comes first to mind, however taking into consideration
>>> number of population - China, India and fast growing Latin America
>>> world that might
>>> depend)
>> Indeed, any recommendation?
>>
>> BTW this is strange since xwiki.org website is in English and there's no reason only people from Europe would use it. Maybe Europe countries use more open source than say in the USA. UK is not in the list either which is strange too.
>>
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent
>>
>
> I agree, hit the US and Canadian markets as Xwiki has the potential to become huge out there.
>
> Actually living in the UK and then taking a 2 year sabbatical to Turkey I would have thought that opensource in the US and Canada were going to be much larger then anywhere in Europe...... since most opensource projects kind of kick-start out there and there is a huge following of Linux/BSD among other things.
>
>
> Turkey I can definitely say is a 99.9999% MS based environment with almost everybody using Sharepoint as the - wiki, mainsite, collaboration suite etc.... - actually I went out there as a UNIX engineer and ended up an MS slave as my first position was as a Sharepoint admin. Afterwards when I went to en enterprise grade investment company they even used Sharepoint there even though I tried to politically incline them towards opensource source especially Xwiki but in their own terms: 'there was no support as mailing lists aren't considered support and nobody would understand how to work it'.

This is a very typical misconception. It's not because some software is open source that there aren't companies doing support for it. Quite the opposite. Whereas with closed software you'll have only 1 company doing support, with open source you'll generally find several companies doing support for products… ;)

You can point them to http://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Main/Support#HProfessionalSupport
(this link is available on xwiki.org in the top level horizontal menu under the "Support" tab)

> In the UK while job hunting I do express my knowledge in Xwiki to any company I come into contact with and again the response usually is 'We use Sharepoint in this firm'.

Thanks for sharing the xwiki love around you! :) That's great.

> It's just unfortunate that I am not in a senior (or any) position here with a bunch of contacts in the same place as I definitely would try to get Xwiki on the map! I must sincerely appologies for this as I am a huge fan of Xwiki - bar the inability to upgrade versions currently but that's still a work in progress ;-)

hehe… that's still one of the difficult points even though we're trying to improve…

> But if there's anything I can do to help the project I will in anyway I can!

Thanks
-Vincent

> Regards,
>
>
> Kaya

_______________________________________________
users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Volunteers needed to write articles (was Re: State of the XWiki Community)

Roman Muntyanu
In reply to this post by vmassol
Vincent, I guess you are right. I've written so thinking more of technical articles (which I would have been able to do only having vast XWiki development experience).

However I could post my recent presentation on next-gen collaboration wikis and mention xwiki as the only open-source wiki with architecture that's capable of adopting those changes.
I could also try to post an overview on habrahabr.ru, but that sure will take a lot longer.
I can also do translations to Ukrainian and Russian.

Currently cannot give any commitments on the timeframes, but I am interested in taking part in the articles writing and when ready I shall send those for your review.

Following is the list of topics I could think of but lack experience to nicely present the information
 * XWiki architectural scalability. How good modularity results in extensibility
 * Maven best practices in XWiki
 * Wiki in the cloud
        ** An overview of techniques used for building XWiki farm where you currently grant people online wikis by request
        ** Article describing how you would configure cluster of XWikis for handling high-load (something like "how to build XWikipedia")
 * Distributed teamwork on XWiki project (that should end-up at some managerial site)
 * Work with the community (Vincent's recent post about the survey taken in 2009, collective voting)

 So basically the idea behind all that is take all the good things you have, put them into article and mention XWiki :)

Roman

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Vincent Massol
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 15:34 PM
To: XWiki Users
Subject: [xwiki-users] Volunteers needed to write articles (was Re: State of the XWiki Community)

Hi Roman,

On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:57 PM, Roman Muntyanu wrote:

> Well,
>
>   I do have one idea. Appear more in the news.
>  Why don't you use that news about XWiki becoming part of cloudbees
> platform and post it into most popular technical news-sites e.g.
>  http://www.infoq.com/ (western English-speaking world)  
> http://habrahabr.ru/ (Russia and Ukraine)  http://www.roseindia.net/ 
> (Indian)  those I recollect off-hand, there are definitely more.
>
>  You could also prepare some case-studies on the technical part of
> XWiki and on the innovations adopted there, and post the info to the
> above sites or even to something like
> https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat

Indeed.

Except that it's not "you" but "we" (as in "we" the xwiki community). Everyone here is part of the xwiki community.

Note that the XWiki SAS company (http://xwiki.com) does its own marketing (re the cloudbees integration for example it did quite a lot but mostly in French: http://www.google.fr/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=cloudbees+xwiki )

I completely that the XWiki open source project is not very good at doing "tech marketing". Everyone in the community can do it and the XWiki committers too but very few of them do any advertising of XWiki in web site articles, speak at conferences, blog posts, etc. I do quite a few talks but mostly are in France (where I'm based).

So let's see: who would be wiling to write some article about a part of XWiki?

That would be a very nice way for XWiki users to contribute something back to help the open source project.

Thanks
-Vincent

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Vincent Massol
> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 13:21 PM
> To: XWiki Users
> Subject: Re: [xwiki-users] State of the XWiki Community
>
>
> On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:42 AM, coldserenity wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Today I have noticed that XWiki made it into a commercial solution
>> * http://www.cloudbees.com/platform-ecosystem.cb
>> *
>> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/cloudbees-adds-mongohq-papertrail-an
>> d
>> -xwiki-to-integrated-partner-ecosystem-of-hosted-cloud-services-for-j
>> a
>> va-developers-2011-10-24
>> My congratulations! :)
>
> Yes this is very cool and did a lot of good advertising for the xwiki
> project :)
>
>> One more observation that XWiki is primarily presented in European
>> counties on 2012.01.21 following request
>> http://www.google.com/trends/?q=XWiki&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0
>> produced
>> 1. Algeria
>> 2. France
>> 3. Morocco
>> 4. Czech Republic
>> 5. Switzerland
>> 6. Belgium
>> 7. Romania
>> 8. Singapore
>> 9. Austria
>> 10. India
>>
>> I think it's essential to get other markets to increase the community
>> (north America comes first to mind, however taking into consideration
>> number of population - China, India and fast growing Latin America
>> world that might
>> depend)
>
> Indeed, any recommendation?
>
> BTW this is strange since xwiki.org website is in English and there's no reason only people from Europe would use it. Maybe Europe countries use more open source than say in the USA. UK is not in the list either which is strange too.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
_______________________________________________
users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
_______________________________________________
users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: State of the XWiki Community

Roman Muntyanu
In reply to this post by Roman Muntyanu
Today got a link to this book http://www.aosabook.org/en/index.html
Can't find chapter about XWiki ;)