[VOTE] Integrate Workspaces by default in XWiki's default XAR

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[VOTE] Integrate Workspaces by default in XWiki's default XAR

vmassol
Administrator
Hi devs,

In the Roadmap proposal I've sent for XWiki 5.2 some days ago, there's this time:

"
* Have Workspace by default in XE + improved home page - Caty + Guillaume Delhumeau. FTR Guillaume is not a committer yet but he's going to work full time on XWiki development and especially on UI aspects from now on. Welcome aboard Guillaume, we need you! :)
"

Denis told me he didn't know about the proposal of having Workspaces integrated in the default XAR. Thus I'm sending this email to ensure we all agree about this.

The rationale is:

* It would be nice that when our users download XWiki (standalone version or install the default XAR) they get to see the power of XWiki. One of the very important differentiator of XWiki vs other wikis/solutions is our multi-tenancy feature and most of people downloading and installing XWiki don't see it.

* XEM/Wiki Manager are lacking polishing because the committers mostly polish the default which doesn't include those. The UIs of XEM/Wiki Manager need polishing. Having them in default will ensure that we take them into account and make them first class citizens when we develop.

Caty started working on the home page/UI improvements required to integrate this by default:
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/MultiWiki

Here's my +1

Thanks
-Vincent

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Re: [VOTE] Integrate Workspaces by default in XWiki's default XAR

Denis Gervalle-2
On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi devs,
>
> In the Roadmap proposal I've sent for XWiki 5.2 some days ago, there's
> this time:
>
> "
> * Have Workspace by default in XE + improved home page - Caty + Guillaume
> Delhumeau. FTR Guillaume is not a committer yet but he's going to work full
> time on XWiki development and especially on UI aspects from now on. Welcome
> aboard Guillaume, we need you! :)
> "
>
> Denis told me he didn't know about the proposal of having Workspaces
> integrated in the default XAR. Thus I'm sending this email to ensure we all
> agree about this.
>
> The rationale is:
>
> * It would be nice that when our users download XWiki (standalone version
> or install the default XAR) they get to see the power of XWiki. One of the
> very important differentiator of XWiki vs other wikis/solutions is our
> multi-tenancy feature and most of people downloading and installing XWiki
> don't see it.
>
> * XEM/Wiki Manager are lacking polishing because the committers mostly
> polish the default which doesn't include those. The UIs of XEM/Wiki Manager
> need polishing. Having them in default will ensure that we take them into
> account and make them first class citizens when we develop.
>
> Caty started working on the home page/UI improvements required to
> integrate this by default:
> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/MultiWiki
>
> Here's my +1
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>

Hi Vincent,

I fully agree with your argument, and we need a solution for that. But I am
concerned on not having this default integration causing difficulties with
existing farm deployment. We should also be careful to not have that
feature taking too much place when left unused.
Is there some mockup of our target or are you just expecting to make XEM to
be XE ?
What do you expect this will evolve when we introduce flavor ?

Thanks,

--
Denis Gervalle
SOFTEC sa - CEO
eGuilde sarl - CTO
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Re: [VOTE] Integrate Workspaces by default in XWiki's default XAR

vmassol
Administrator

On Jul 20, 2013, at 3:20 PM, Denis Gervalle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi devs,
>>
>> In the Roadmap proposal I've sent for XWiki 5.2 some days ago, there's
>> this time:
>>
>> "
>> * Have Workspace by default in XE + improved home page - Caty + Guillaume
>> Delhumeau. FTR Guillaume is not a committer yet but he's going to work full
>> time on XWiki development and especially on UI aspects from now on. Welcome
>> aboard Guillaume, we need you! :)
>> "
>>
>> Denis told me he didn't know about the proposal of having Workspaces
>> integrated in the default XAR. Thus I'm sending this email to ensure we all
>> agree about this.
>>
>> The rationale is:
>>
>> * It would be nice that when our users download XWiki (standalone version
>> or install the default XAR) they get to see the power of XWiki. One of the
>> very important differentiator of XWiki vs other wikis/solutions is our
>> multi-tenancy feature and most of people downloading and installing XWiki
>> don't see it.
>>
>> * XEM/Wiki Manager are lacking polishing because the committers mostly
>> polish the default which doesn't include those. The UIs of XEM/Wiki Manager
>> need polishing. Having them in default will ensure that we take them into
>> account and make them first class citizens when we develop.
>>
>> Caty started working on the home page/UI improvements required to
>> integrate this by default:
>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/MultiWiki
>>
>> Here's my +1
>>
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent
>
> Hi Vincent,
>
> I fully agree with your argument, and we need a solution for that. But I am
> concerned on not having this default integration causing difficulties with
> existing farm deployment. We should also be careful to not have that
> feature taking too much place when left unused.

Yes definitely. We need to address:
* Support for both workspace mode and farm mode
* Minimal visual addition when only 1 wiki is defined (IMO only a Add > New Wiki/Workspce menu entry in this case)
* Make sure that upgrading an existing XWiki in farm mode will not cause any problem
* Make sure that upgrading an existing XWiki in workspaces mode (i.e. XEM) will not cause any problem

> Is there some mockup of our target or are you just expecting to make XEM to
> be XE ?

Caty is working on this investigation and needs to propose something very quickly now so that we can implement it in 5.2 (already started)… :)

What Caty has already done is available at:
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/MultiWiki

> What do you expect this will evolve when we introduce flavor ?

The Workspaces flavor, see
http://xwiki.markmail.org/thread/n2yove6lr3rlzh6j

You're right, basically this means working on the Workspaces flavor in 5.2 since when we have flavors users can easily choose what they want to have.

Thanks
-Vincent

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Re: [VOTE] Integrate Workspaces by default in XWiki's default XAR

Denis Gervalle-2
On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Jul 20, 2013, at 3:20 PM, Denis Gervalle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi devs,
> >>
> >> In the Roadmap proposal I've sent for XWiki 5.2 some days ago, there's
> >> this time:
> >>
> >> "
> >> * Have Workspace by default in XE + improved home page - Caty +
> Guillaume
> >> Delhumeau. FTR Guillaume is not a committer yet but he's going to work
> full
> >> time on XWiki development and especially on UI aspects from now on.
> Welcome
> >> aboard Guillaume, we need you! :)
> >> "
> >>
> >> Denis told me he didn't know about the proposal of having Workspaces
> >> integrated in the default XAR. Thus I'm sending this email to ensure we
> all
> >> agree about this.
> >>
> >> The rationale is:
> >>
> >> * It would be nice that when our users download XWiki (standalone
> version
> >> or install the default XAR) they get to see the power of XWiki. One of
> the
> >> very important differentiator of XWiki vs other wikis/solutions is our
> >> multi-tenancy feature and most of people downloading and installing
> XWiki
> >> don't see it.
> >>
> >> * XEM/Wiki Manager are lacking polishing because the committers mostly
> >> polish the default which doesn't include those. The UIs of XEM/Wiki
> Manager
> >> need polishing. Having them in default will ensure that we take them
> into
> >> account and make them first class citizens when we develop.
> >>
> >> Caty started working on the home page/UI improvements required to
> >> integrate this by default:
> >> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/MultiWiki
> >>
> >> Here's my +1
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> -Vincent
> >
> > Hi Vincent,
> >
> > I fully agree with your argument, and we need a solution for that. But I
> am
> > concerned on not having this default integration causing difficulties
> with
> > existing farm deployment. We should also be careful to not have that
> > feature taking too much place when left unused.
>
> Yes definitely. We need to address:
> * Support for both workspace mode and farm mode
> * Minimal visual addition when only 1 wiki is defined (IMO only a Add >
> New Wiki/Workspce menu entry in this case)
> * Make sure that upgrading an existing XWiki in farm mode will not cause
> any problem
> * Make sure that upgrading an existing XWiki in workspaces mode (i.e. XEM)
> will not cause any problem
>
> > Is there some mockup of our target or are you just expecting to make XEM
> to
> > be XE ?
>
> Caty is working on this investigation and needs to propose something very
> quickly now so that we can implement it in 5.2 (already started)… :)
>
> What Caty has already done is available at:
> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/MultiWiki
>
> > What do you expect this will evolve when we introduce flavor ?
>
> The Workspaces flavor, see
> http://xwiki.markmail.org/thread/n2yove6lr3rlzh6j
>
> You're right, basically this means working on the Workspaces flavor in 5.2
> since when we have flavors users can easily choose what they want to have.
>

+1 but we should agree on the implementation (UI + farm upgrade).


> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>



--
Denis Gervalle
SOFTEC sa - CEO
eGuilde sarl - CTO
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Re: [VOTE] Integrate Workspaces by default in XWiki's default XAR

Sergiu Dumitriu-3
In reply to this post by vmassol
On 07/20/2013 07:33 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:

> Hi devs,
>
> In the Roadmap proposal I've sent for XWiki 5.2 some days ago, there's this time:
>
> "
> * Have Workspace by default in XE + improved home page - Caty + Guillaume Delhumeau. FTR Guillaume is not a committer yet but he's going to work full time on XWiki development and especially on UI aspects from now on. Welcome aboard Guillaume, we need you! :)
> "
>
> Denis told me he didn't know about the proposal of having Workspaces integrated in the default XAR. Thus I'm sending this email to ensure we all agree about this.
>
> The rationale is:
>
> * It would be nice that when our users download XWiki (standalone version or install the default XAR) they get to see the power of XWiki. One of the very important differentiator of XWiki vs other wikis/solutions is our multi-tenancy feature and most of people downloading and installing XWiki don't see it.
>
> * XEM/Wiki Manager are lacking polishing because the committers mostly polish the default which doesn't include those. The UIs of XEM/Wiki Manager need polishing. Having them in default will ensure that we take them into account and make them first class citizens when we develop.
>
> Caty started working on the home page/UI improvements required to integrate this by default:
> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/MultiWiki
>
> Here's my +1
>

This is a major shift in how first-time users perceive XWiki. Without
multi-wiki features, it still looks like a wiki, but if the homepage
changes from a "welcome to your wiki" page to a "here are your
workspaces" portal, then suddenly XWiki "becomes" something else in the
eyes of our users. I used quotes since nothing changes on the inside,
the multiwiki feature has been there since the beginning, and the single
wiki mode can still be used.

But this change in how XWiki is perceived has both advantages and
disadvantages. On one hand, it clearly shows users that XWiki is a
collaborative platform, not just a wiki, so people that need
collaboration more than just a wiki will be able to see that XWiki isn't
another boring wiki. On the other hand, people that are just looking for
a wiki that's nice to use and "not-ugly", might be put off by yet
another layer of complexity, and might drop XWiki from their list of
candidates. In other words, it alienates even more the kind of users
that already perceive XWiki as hard to use and overly complex.

So, are we willing to trade one type of users for the other? It would be
in line with our vision of "enterprise collaboration", but I still think
we shouldn't voluntarily alienate any kind of users.

An alternative is to wait for a real flavor, and then ask in the first
step of the distribution manager what kind of usage do we want. In the
meantime, we can still polish the pages that will go in the "workspaces"
flavor.

So, -0 for switching to "workspaces only" in 5.2, unless we have really
good backwards compatibility and a flavor for a simple wiki for textual
collaboration.
--
Sergiu Dumitriu
http://purl.org/net/sergiu
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Re: [VOTE] Integrate Workspaces by default in XWiki's default XAR

vmassol
Administrator

On Jul 22, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 07/20/2013 07:33 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
>> Hi devs,
>>
>> In the Roadmap proposal I've sent for XWiki 5.2 some days ago, there's this time:
>>
>> "
>> * Have Workspace by default in XE + improved home page - Caty + Guillaume Delhumeau. FTR Guillaume is not a committer yet but he's going to work full time on XWiki development and especially on UI aspects from now on. Welcome aboard Guillaume, we need you! :)
>> "
>>
>> Denis told me he didn't know about the proposal of having Workspaces integrated in the default XAR. Thus I'm sending this email to ensure we all agree about this.
>>
>> The rationale is:
>>
>> * It would be nice that when our users download XWiki (standalone version or install the default XAR) they get to see the power of XWiki. One of the very important differentiator of XWiki vs other wikis/solutions is our multi-tenancy feature and most of people downloading and installing XWiki don't see it.
>>
>> * XEM/Wiki Manager are lacking polishing because the committers mostly polish the default which doesn't include those. The UIs of XEM/Wiki Manager need polishing. Having them in default will ensure that we take them into account and make them first class citizens when we develop.
>>
>> Caty started working on the home page/UI improvements required to integrate this by default:
>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/MultiWiki
>>
>> Here's my +1
>>
>
> This is a major shift in how first-time users perceive XWiki. Without
> multi-wiki features, it still looks like a wiki, but if the homepage
> changes from a "welcome to your wiki" page to a "here are your
> workspaces" portal, then suddenly XWiki "becomes" something else in the
> eyes of our users. I used quotes since nothing changes on the inside,
> the multiwiki feature has been there since the beginning, and the single
> wiki mode can still be used.

This isn't the plan as I mentioned in my previous emails. The plan is that the home page doesn't change. All that changes for a first time user installing XWiki is that the Add menu will have more entries (Add Workspace or Add Wiki or both, Caty is still working on the proposal).

> But this change in how XWiki is perceived has both advantages and
> disadvantages. On one hand, it clearly shows users that XWiki is a
> collaborative platform, not just a wiki, so people that need
> collaboration more than just a wiki will be able to see that XWiki isn't
> another boring wiki. On the other hand, people that are just looking for
> a wiki that's nice to use and "not-ugly", might be put off by yet
> another layer of complexity, and might drop XWiki from their list of
> candidates. In other words, it alienates even more the kind of users
> that already perceive XWiki as hard to use and overly complex.
>
> So, are we willing to trade one type of users for the other? It would be
> in line with our vision of "enterprise collaboration", but I still think
> we shouldn't voluntarily alienate any kind of users.
>
> An alternative is to wait for a real flavor, and then ask in the first
> step of the distribution manager what kind of usage do we want. In the
> meantime, we can still polish the pages that will go in the "workspaces"
> flavor.
>
> So, -0 for switching to "workspaces only" in 5.2, unless we have really
> good backwards compatibility and a flavor for a simple wiki for textual
> collaboration.

I hope the above allays your fears :)

Thanks
-Vincent

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Re: [VOTE] Integrate Workspaces by default in XWiki's default XAR

vmassol
Administrator

On Jul 22, 2013, at 10:24 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Jul 22, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 07/20/2013 07:33 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
>>> Hi devs,
>>>
>>> In the Roadmap proposal I've sent for XWiki 5.2 some days ago, there's this time:
>>>
>>> "
>>> * Have Workspace by default in XE + improved home page - Caty + Guillaume Delhumeau. FTR Guillaume is not a committer yet but he's going to work full time on XWiki development and especially on UI aspects from now on. Welcome aboard Guillaume, we need you! :)
>>> "
>>>
>>> Denis told me he didn't know about the proposal of having Workspaces integrated in the default XAR. Thus I'm sending this email to ensure we all agree about this.
>>>
>>> The rationale is:
>>>
>>> * It would be nice that when our users download XWiki (standalone version or install the default XAR) they get to see the power of XWiki. One of the very important differentiator of XWiki vs other wikis/solutions is our multi-tenancy feature and most of people downloading and installing XWiki don't see it.
>>>
>>> * XEM/Wiki Manager are lacking polishing because the committers mostly polish the default which doesn't include those. The UIs of XEM/Wiki Manager need polishing. Having them in default will ensure that we take them into account and make them first class citizens when we develop.
>>>
>>> Caty started working on the home page/UI improvements required to integrate this by default:
>>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/MultiWiki
>>>
>>> Here's my +1
>>>
>>
>> This is a major shift in how first-time users perceive XWiki. Without
>> multi-wiki features, it still looks like a wiki, but if the homepage
>> changes from a "welcome to your wiki" page to a "here are your
>> workspaces" portal, then suddenly XWiki "becomes" something else in the
>> eyes of our users. I used quotes since nothing changes on the inside,
>> the multiwiki feature has been there since the beginning, and the single
>> wiki mode can still be used.
>
> This isn't the plan as I mentioned in my previous emails. The plan is that the home page doesn't change. All that changes for a first time user installing XWiki is that the Add menu will have more entries (Add Workspace or Add Wiki or both, Caty is still working on the proposal).

Said differently the goal is that for a first time user, he doesn't see any additional complexity.

Thanks
-Vincent

>> But this change in how XWiki is perceived has both advantages and
>> disadvantages. On one hand, it clearly shows users that XWiki is a
>> collaborative platform, not just a wiki, so people that need
>> collaboration more than just a wiki will be able to see that XWiki isn't
>> another boring wiki. On the other hand, people that are just looking for
>> a wiki that's nice to use and "not-ugly", might be put off by yet
>> another layer of complexity, and might drop XWiki from their list of
>> candidates. In other words, it alienates even more the kind of users
>> that already perceive XWiki as hard to use and overly complex.
>>
>> So, are we willing to trade one type of users for the other? It would be
>> in line with our vision of "enterprise collaboration", but I still think
>> we shouldn't voluntarily alienate any kind of users.
>>
>> An alternative is to wait for a real flavor, and then ask in the first
>> step of the distribution manager what kind of usage do we want. In the
>> meantime, we can still polish the pages that will go in the "workspaces"
>> flavor.
>>
>> So, -0 for switching to "workspaces only" in 5.2, unless we have really
>> good backwards compatibility and a flavor for a simple wiki for textual
>> collaboration.
>
> I hope the above allays your fears :)
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>

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Re: [VOTE] Integrate Workspaces by default in XWiki's default XAR

Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
In reply to this post by vmassol
On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 10:24 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Jul 22, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 07/20/2013 07:33 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
> >> Hi devs,
> >>
> >> In the Roadmap proposal I've sent for XWiki 5.2 some days ago, there's
> this time:
> >>
> >> "
> >> * Have Workspace by default in XE + improved home page - Caty +
> Guillaume Delhumeau. FTR Guillaume is not a committer yet but he's going to
> work full time on XWiki development and especially on UI aspects from now
> on. Welcome aboard Guillaume, we need you! :)
> >> "
> >>
> >> Denis told me he didn't know about the proposal of having Workspaces
> integrated in the default XAR. Thus I'm sending this email to ensure we all
> agree about this.
> >>
> >> The rationale is:
> >>
> >> * It would be nice that when our users download XWiki (standalone
> version or install the default XAR) they get to see the power of XWiki. One
> of the very important differentiator of XWiki vs other wikis/solutions is
> our multi-tenancy feature and most of people downloading and installing
> XWiki don't see it.
> >>
> >> * XEM/Wiki Manager are lacking polishing because the committers mostly
> polish the default which doesn't include those. The UIs of XEM/Wiki Manager
> need polishing. Having them in default will ensure that we take them into
> account and make them first class citizens when we develop.
> >>
> >> Caty started working on the home page/UI improvements required to
> integrate this by default:
> >> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/MultiWiki
> >>
> >> Here's my +1
> >>
> >
> > This is a major shift in how first-time users perceive XWiki. Without
> > multi-wiki features, it still looks like a wiki, but if the homepage
> > changes from a "welcome to your wiki" page to a "here are your
> > workspaces" portal, then suddenly XWiki "becomes" something else in the
> > eyes of our users. I used quotes since nothing changes on the inside,
> > the multiwiki feature has been there since the beginning, and the single
> > wiki mode can still be used.
>
> This isn't the plan as I mentioned in my previous emails. The plan is that
> the home page doesn't change. All that changes for a first time user
> installing XWiki is that the Add menu will have more entries (Add Workspace
> or Add Wiki or both, Caty is still working on the proposal).
>

Proposals:

* Changes to the Menu
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/HomeMenu

* Wiki/Workspace Creation
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/CreateWikiImprovements
(please chose between Option A, B or C)

Thanks,
Caty



>
> > But this change in how XWiki is perceived has both advantages and
> > disadvantages. On one hand, it clearly shows users that XWiki is a
> > collaborative platform, not just a wiki, so people that need
> > collaboration more than just a wiki will be able to see that XWiki isn't
> > another boring wiki. On the other hand, people that are just looking for
> > a wiki that's nice to use and "not-ugly", might be put off by yet
> > another layer of complexity, and might drop XWiki from their list of
> > candidates. In other words, it alienates even more the kind of users
> > that already perceive XWiki as hard to use and overly complex.
> >
> > So, are we willing to trade one type of users for the other? It would be
> > in line with our vision of "enterprise collaboration", but I still think
> > we shouldn't voluntarily alienate any kind of users.
> >
> > An alternative is to wait for a real flavor, and then ask in the first
> > step of the distribution manager what kind of usage do we want. In the
> > meantime, we can still polish the pages that will go in the "workspaces"
> > flavor.
> >
> > So, -0 for switching to "workspaces only" in 5.2, unless we have really
> > good backwards compatibility and a flavor for a simple wiki for textual
> > collaboration.
>
> I hope the above allays your fears :)
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: [VOTE] Integrate Workspaces by default in XWiki's default XAR

vmassol
Administrator
Hi Caty,

See below.

On Jul 30, 2013, at 1:10 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 10:24 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jul 22, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 07/20/2013 07:33 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
>>>> Hi devs,
>>>>
>>>> In the Roadmap proposal I've sent for XWiki 5.2 some days ago, there's
>> this time:
>>>>
>>>> "
>>>> * Have Workspace by default in XE + improved home page - Caty +
>> Guillaume Delhumeau. FTR Guillaume is not a committer yet but he's going to
>> work full time on XWiki development and especially on UI aspects from now
>> on. Welcome aboard Guillaume, we need you! :)
>>>> "
>>>>
>>>> Denis told me he didn't know about the proposal of having Workspaces
>> integrated in the default XAR. Thus I'm sending this email to ensure we all
>> agree about this.
>>>>
>>>> The rationale is:
>>>>
>>>> * It would be nice that when our users download XWiki (standalone
>> version or install the default XAR) they get to see the power of XWiki. One
>> of the very important differentiator of XWiki vs other wikis/solutions is
>> our multi-tenancy feature and most of people downloading and installing
>> XWiki don't see it.
>>>>
>>>> * XEM/Wiki Manager are lacking polishing because the committers mostly
>> polish the default which doesn't include those. The UIs of XEM/Wiki Manager
>> need polishing. Having them in default will ensure that we take them into
>> account and make them first class citizens when we develop.
>>>>
>>>> Caty started working on the home page/UI improvements required to
>> integrate this by default:
>>>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/MultiWiki
>>>>
>>>> Here's my +1
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is a major shift in how first-time users perceive XWiki. Without
>>> multi-wiki features, it still looks like a wiki, but if the homepage
>>> changes from a "welcome to your wiki" page to a "here are your
>>> workspaces" portal, then suddenly XWiki "becomes" something else in the
>>> eyes of our users. I used quotes since nothing changes on the inside,
>>> the multiwiki feature has been there since the beginning, and the single
>>> wiki mode can still be used.
>>
>> This isn't the plan as I mentioned in my previous emails. The plan is that
>> the home page doesn't change. All that changes for a first time user
>> installing XWiki is that the Add menu will have more entries (Add Workspace
>> or Add Wiki or both, Caty is still working on the proposal).
>>
>
> Proposals:
>
> * Changes to the Menu
> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/HomeMenu

* "Add menu". I think you forgot to update the 3rd screenshots which the colibri skin, right?

* "Home Menu". For 5.2 I don't think we should have the following since we don't have any UI for them:
** Administration. I don't even know what it means at the global portal/system level
** All documents. Currently we don't have a LT that displays all docs from all wikis
** Applications Index. I don't see what you would do in this one. Listing all apps for all wikis for quick navigation? Not sure it's needed
** Note: Users index should list all global users
* I don't like very much "Home" as the menu name since that represents a single wiki (the main wiki). We already have a menu entry to represent the current wiki. I'd prefer to have a "System" or "Portal" or "Farm" or …, i.e. something that represents the whole system and have only system-wide actions in it.

* "Wiki Menu". Should be the same as now + Users Index for listing all local users of the current wiki + Application Index for all apps of the current wiki, i.e. all actions that you can do on the current wiki

> * Wiki/Workspace Creation
> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/CreateWikiImprovements
> (please chose between Option A, B or C)

Definitely +1 for B. I really think we need to drop the concept of workspaces and come back to the concept of wiki/subwiki. It's much simpler for the user. What we call "workspace" can be seen as a configuration for a wiki, i.e. the usage of global users only.

Thanks
-Vincent

> Thanks,
> Caty
>
>
>
>>
>>> But this change in how XWiki is perceived has both advantages and
>>> disadvantages. On one hand, it clearly shows users that XWiki is a
>>> collaborative platform, not just a wiki, so people that need
>>> collaboration more than just a wiki will be able to see that XWiki isn't
>>> another boring wiki. On the other hand, people that are just looking for
>>> a wiki that's nice to use and "not-ugly", might be put off by yet
>>> another layer of complexity, and might drop XWiki from their list of
>>> candidates. In other words, it alienates even more the kind of users
>>> that already perceive XWiki as hard to use and overly complex.
>>>
>>> So, are we willing to trade one type of users for the other? It would be
>>> in line with our vision of "enterprise collaboration", but I still think
>>> we shouldn't voluntarily alienate any kind of users.
>>>
>>> An alternative is to wait for a real flavor, and then ask in the first
>>> step of the distribution manager what kind of usage do we want. In the
>>> meantime, we can still polish the pages that will go in the "workspaces"
>>> flavor.
>>>
>>> So, -0 for switching to "workspaces only" in 5.2, unless we have really
>>> good backwards compatibility and a flavor for a simple wiki for textual
>>> collaboration.
>>
>> I hope the above allays your fears :)
>>
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent
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Re: [VOTE] Integrate Workspaces by default in XWiki's default XAR

Guillaume Lerouge
Hi,

very nice mockups.


On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 1:26 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Caty,
>
> See below.
>
> On Jul 30, 2013, at 1:10 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 10:24 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On Jul 22, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 07/20/2013 07:33 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
> >>>> Hi devs,
> >>>>
> >>>> In the Roadmap proposal I've sent for XWiki 5.2 some days ago, there's
> >> this time:
> >>>>
> >>>> "
> >>>> * Have Workspace by default in XE + improved home page - Caty +
> >> Guillaume Delhumeau. FTR Guillaume is not a committer yet but he's
> going to
> >> work full time on XWiki development and especially on UI aspects from
> now
> >> on. Welcome aboard Guillaume, we need you! :)
> >>>> "
> >>>>
> >>>> Denis told me he didn't know about the proposal of having Workspaces
> >> integrated in the default XAR. Thus I'm sending this email to ensure we
> all
> >> agree about this.
> >>>>
> >>>> The rationale is:
> >>>>
> >>>> * It would be nice that when our users download XWiki (standalone
> >> version or install the default XAR) they get to see the power of XWiki.
> One
> >> of the very important differentiator of XWiki vs other wikis/solutions
> is
> >> our multi-tenancy feature and most of people downloading and installing
> >> XWiki don't see it.
> >>>>
> >>>> * XEM/Wiki Manager are lacking polishing because the committers mostly
> >> polish the default which doesn't include those. The UIs of XEM/Wiki
> Manager
> >> need polishing. Having them in default will ensure that we take them
> into
> >> account and make them first class citizens when we develop.
> >>>>
> >>>> Caty started working on the home page/UI improvements required to
> >> integrate this by default:
> >>>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/MultiWiki
> >>>>
> >>>> Here's my +1
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> This is a major shift in how first-time users perceive XWiki. Without
> >>> multi-wiki features, it still looks like a wiki, but if the homepage
> >>> changes from a "welcome to your wiki" page to a "here are your
> >>> workspaces" portal, then suddenly XWiki "becomes" something else in the
> >>> eyes of our users. I used quotes since nothing changes on the inside,
> >>> the multiwiki feature has been there since the beginning, and the
> single
> >>> wiki mode can still be used.
> >>
> >> This isn't the plan as I mentioned in my previous emails. The plan is
> that
> >> the home page doesn't change. All that changes for a first time user
> >> installing XWiki is that the Add menu will have more entries (Add
> Workspace
> >> or Add Wiki or both, Caty is still working on the proposal).
> >>
> >
> > Proposals:
> >
> > * Changes to the Menu
> > http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/HomeMenu
>
> * "Add menu". I think you forgot to update the 3rd screenshots which the
> colibri skin, right?
>
> * "Home Menu". For 5.2 I don't think we should have the following since we
> don't have any UI for them:
> ** Administration. I don't even know what it means at the global
> portal/system level
>

Right now it's the administration of the Main wiki, which is the only place
from which you can manage global users.


> ** All documents. Currently we don't have a LT that displays all docs from
> all wikis
> ** Applications Index. I don't see what you would do in this one. Listing
> all apps for all wikis for quick navigation? Not sure it's needed
> ** Note: Users index should list all global users
> * I don't like very much "Home" as the menu name since that represents a
> single wiki (the main wiki). We already have a menu entry to represent the
> current wiki. I'd prefer to have a "System" or "Portal" or "Farm" or …,
> i.e. something that represents the whole system and have only system-wide
> actions in it.
>

What I like with "Home" is that users instinctively know that it's the top
end of the solution, ie the place to go back to to find your way in case of
doubt.


> * "Wiki Menu". Should be the same as now + Users Index for listing all
> local users of the current wiki + Application Index for all apps of the
> current wiki, i.e. all actions that you can do on the current wiki
>
> > * Wiki/Workspace Creation
> >
> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/CreateWikiImprovements
> > (please chose between Option A, B or C)
>
> Definitely +1 for B. I really think we need to drop the concept of
> workspaces and come back to the concept of wiki/subwiki. It's much simpler
> for the user. What we call "workspace" can be seen as a configuration for a
> wiki, i.e. the usage of global users only.
>

I think this debate has not been conducted to a satisfactory end yet. We
should indeed keep just one type of sub-site (either wiki or workspace). I
like the simplicity of A, where the user is asked to perform less choices.
By the way, instead of "Empty wiki", maybe we should call that template
"Default", again to help users make a choice if in doubt.

What's a bit complicated is that "Workspaces" could be seen as a flavor for
a whole wiki farm (including the main wiki and sub-wikis) with special
behavior, for instance allowing only global users.

Guillaume

Thanks

> -Vincent
>
> > Thanks,
> > Caty
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>> But this change in how XWiki is perceived has both advantages and
> >>> disadvantages. On one hand, it clearly shows users that XWiki is a
> >>> collaborative platform, not just a wiki, so people that need
> >>> collaboration more than just a wiki will be able to see that XWiki
> isn't
> >>> another boring wiki. On the other hand, people that are just looking
> for
> >>> a wiki that's nice to use and "not-ugly", might be put off by yet
> >>> another layer of complexity, and might drop XWiki from their list of
> >>> candidates. In other words, it alienates even more the kind of users
> >>> that already perceive XWiki as hard to use and overly complex.
> >>>
> >>> So, are we willing to trade one type of users for the other? It would
> be
> >>> in line with our vision of "enterprise collaboration", but I still
> think
> >>> we shouldn't voluntarily alienate any kind of users.
> >>>
> >>> An alternative is to wait for a real flavor, and then ask in the first
> >>> step of the distribution manager what kind of usage do we want. In the
> >>> meantime, we can still polish the pages that will go in the
> "workspaces"
> >>> flavor.
> >>>
> >>> So, -0 for switching to "workspaces only" in 5.2, unless we have really
> >>> good backwards compatibility and a flavor for a simple wiki for textual
> >>> collaboration.
> >>
> >> I hope the above allays your fears :)
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> -Vincent
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: [VOTE] Integrate Workspaces by default in XWiki's default XAR

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by vmassol

On Jul 30, 2013, at 1:26 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Caty,
>
> See below.
>
> On Jul 30, 2013, at 1:10 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 10:24 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 22, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 07/20/2013 07:33 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
>>>>> Hi devs,
>>>>>
>>>>> In the Roadmap proposal I've sent for XWiki 5.2 some days ago, there's
>>> this time:
>>>>>
>>>>> "
>>>>> * Have Workspace by default in XE + improved home page - Caty +
>>> Guillaume Delhumeau. FTR Guillaume is not a committer yet but he's going to
>>> work full time on XWiki development and especially on UI aspects from now
>>> on. Welcome aboard Guillaume, we need you! :)
>>>>> "
>>>>>
>>>>> Denis told me he didn't know about the proposal of having Workspaces
>>> integrated in the default XAR. Thus I'm sending this email to ensure we all
>>> agree about this.
>>>>>
>>>>> The rationale is:
>>>>>
>>>>> * It would be nice that when our users download XWiki (standalone
>>> version or install the default XAR) they get to see the power of XWiki. One
>>> of the very important differentiator of XWiki vs other wikis/solutions is
>>> our multi-tenancy feature and most of people downloading and installing
>>> XWiki don't see it.
>>>>>
>>>>> * XEM/Wiki Manager are lacking polishing because the committers mostly
>>> polish the default which doesn't include those. The UIs of XEM/Wiki Manager
>>> need polishing. Having them in default will ensure that we take them into
>>> account and make them first class citizens when we develop.
>>>>>
>>>>> Caty started working on the home page/UI improvements required to
>>> integrate this by default:
>>>>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/MultiWiki
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's my +1
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is a major shift in how first-time users perceive XWiki. Without
>>>> multi-wiki features, it still looks like a wiki, but if the homepage
>>>> changes from a "welcome to your wiki" page to a "here are your
>>>> workspaces" portal, then suddenly XWiki "becomes" something else in the
>>>> eyes of our users. I used quotes since nothing changes on the inside,
>>>> the multiwiki feature has been there since the beginning, and the single
>>>> wiki mode can still be used.
>>>
>>> This isn't the plan as I mentioned in my previous emails. The plan is that
>>> the home page doesn't change. All that changes for a first time user
>>> installing XWiki is that the Add menu will have more entries (Add Workspace
>>> or Add Wiki or both, Caty is still working on the proposal).
>>>
>>
>> Proposals:
>>
>> * Changes to the Menu
>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/HomeMenu
>
> * "Add menu". I think you forgot to update the 3rd screenshots which the colibri skin, right?
>
> * "Home Menu". For 5.2 I don't think we should have the following since we don't have any UI for them:
> ** Administration. I don't even know what it means at the global portal/system level
> ** All documents. Currently we don't have a LT that displays all docs from all wikis
> ** Applications Index. I don't see what you would do in this one. Listing all apps for all wikis for quick navigation? Not sure it's needed
> ** Note: Users index should list all global users
> * I don't like very much "Home" as the menu name since that represents a single wiki (the main wiki). We already have a menu entry to represent the current wiki. I'd prefer to have a "System" or "Portal" or "Farm" or …, i.e. something that represents the whole system and have only system-wide actions in it.
>
> * "Wiki Menu". Should be the same as now + Users Index for listing all local users of the current wiki + Application Index for all apps of the current wiki, i.e. all actions that you can do on the current wiki

BTW when there's only 1 wiki, we shouldn't display the Portal/System/Farm menu to make it simple for users who start with one wiki or with users who only need 1 wiki.

Thanks
-Vincent

>> * Wiki/Workspace Creation
>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/CreateWikiImprovements
>> (please chose between Option A, B or C)
>
> Definitely +1 for B. I really think we need to drop the concept of workspaces and come back to the concept of wiki/subwiki. It's much simpler for the user. What we call "workspace" can be seen as a configuration for a wiki, i.e. the usage of global users only.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>> Thanks,
>> Caty
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> But this change in how XWiki is perceived has both advantages and
>>>> disadvantages. On one hand, it clearly shows users that XWiki is a
>>>> collaborative platform, not just a wiki, so people that need
>>>> collaboration more than just a wiki will be able to see that XWiki isn't
>>>> another boring wiki. On the other hand, people that are just looking for
>>>> a wiki that's nice to use and "not-ugly", might be put off by yet
>>>> another layer of complexity, and might drop XWiki from their list of
>>>> candidates. In other words, it alienates even more the kind of users
>>>> that already perceive XWiki as hard to use and overly complex.
>>>>
>>>> So, are we willing to trade one type of users for the other? It would be
>>>> in line with our vision of "enterprise collaboration", but I still think
>>>> we shouldn't voluntarily alienate any kind of users.
>>>>
>>>> An alternative is to wait for a real flavor, and then ask in the first
>>>> step of the distribution manager what kind of usage do we want. In the
>>>> meantime, we can still polish the pages that will go in the "workspaces"
>>>> flavor.
>>>>
>>>> So, -0 for switching to "workspaces only" in 5.2, unless we have really
>>>> good backwards compatibility and a flavor for a simple wiki for textual
>>>> collaboration.
>>>
>>> I hope the above allays your fears :)
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> -Vincent

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Re: [VOTE] Integrate Workspaces by default in XWiki's default XAR

Marius Dumitru Florea
In reply to this post by Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 10:24 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jul 22, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > On 07/20/2013 07:33 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
>> >> Hi devs,
>> >>
>> >> In the Roadmap proposal I've sent for XWiki 5.2 some days ago, there's
>> this time:
>> >>
>> >> "
>> >> * Have Workspace by default in XE + improved home page - Caty +
>> Guillaume Delhumeau. FTR Guillaume is not a committer yet but he's going to
>> work full time on XWiki development and especially on UI aspects from now
>> on. Welcome aboard Guillaume, we need you! :)
>> >> "
>> >>
>> >> Denis told me he didn't know about the proposal of having Workspaces
>> integrated in the default XAR. Thus I'm sending this email to ensure we all
>> agree about this.
>> >>
>> >> The rationale is:
>> >>
>> >> * It would be nice that when our users download XWiki (standalone
>> version or install the default XAR) they get to see the power of XWiki. One
>> of the very important differentiator of XWiki vs other wikis/solutions is
>> our multi-tenancy feature and most of people downloading and installing
>> XWiki don't see it.
>> >>
>> >> * XEM/Wiki Manager are lacking polishing because the committers mostly
>> polish the default which doesn't include those. The UIs of XEM/Wiki Manager
>> need polishing. Having them in default will ensure that we take them into
>> account and make them first class citizens when we develop.
>> >>
>> >> Caty started working on the home page/UI improvements required to
>> integrate this by default:
>> >> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/MultiWiki
>> >>
>> >> Here's my +1
>> >>
>> >
>> > This is a major shift in how first-time users perceive XWiki. Without
>> > multi-wiki features, it still looks like a wiki, but if the homepage
>> > changes from a "welcome to your wiki" page to a "here are your
>> > workspaces" portal, then suddenly XWiki "becomes" something else in the
>> > eyes of our users. I used quotes since nothing changes on the inside,
>> > the multiwiki feature has been there since the beginning, and the single
>> > wiki mode can still be used.
>>
>> This isn't the plan as I mentioned in my previous emails. The plan is that
>> the home page doesn't change. All that changes for a first time user
>> installing XWiki is that the Add menu will have more entries (Add Workspace
>> or Add Wiki or both, Caty is still working on the proposal).
>>
>
> Proposals:
>

> * Changes to the Menu
> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/HomeMenu

I find "Index" in "Wikis Index", "Documents Index", etc. a bit
redundant. For me "Wikis", "Documents", "Users", etc. is enough. Same
with "Watch Wiki", "Administer Wiki". I prefer "Watch", "Administer",
"Delete". But I can see how this can be confusing for some users.

I see that you moved the "Index" entries from the Space and Wiki menus
to the Home menu, but I'm not sure which context/level will be used
(wiki or space).

Also, the Share Page entry is missing. Did you move it to some other
place or are we going to drop it?

> * Wiki/Workspace Creation
> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/CreateWikiImprovements
> (please chose between Option A, B or C)

Same as Vincent, +1 for B. Workspaces are special types of sub-wikis.

Otherwise the menu looks slick. Can't wait for the new skin!

Thanks,
Marius

>
> Thanks,
> Caty
>
>
>
>>
>> > But this change in how XWiki is perceived has both advantages and
>> > disadvantages. On one hand, it clearly shows users that XWiki is a
>> > collaborative platform, not just a wiki, so people that need
>> > collaboration more than just a wiki will be able to see that XWiki isn't
>> > another boring wiki. On the other hand, people that are just looking for
>> > a wiki that's nice to use and "not-ugly", might be put off by yet
>> > another layer of complexity, and might drop XWiki from their list of
>> > candidates. In other words, it alienates even more the kind of users
>> > that already perceive XWiki as hard to use and overly complex.
>> >
>> > So, are we willing to trade one type of users for the other? It would be
>> > in line with our vision of "enterprise collaboration", but I still think
>> > we shouldn't voluntarily alienate any kind of users.
>> >
>> > An alternative is to wait for a real flavor, and then ask in the first
>> > step of the distribution manager what kind of usage do we want. In the
>> > meantime, we can still polish the pages that will go in the "workspaces"
>> > flavor.
>> >
>> > So, -0 for switching to "workspaces only" in 5.2, unless we have really
>> > good backwards compatibility and a flavor for a simple wiki for textual
>> > collaboration.
>>
>> I hope the above allays your fears :)
>>
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> devs mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>>
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
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Re: [VOTE] Integrate Workspaces by default in XWiki's default XAR

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by vmassol

On Jul 30, 2013, at 1:26 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Caty,
>
> See below.
>
> On Jul 30, 2013, at 1:10 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 10:24 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 22, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 07/20/2013 07:33 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
>>>>> Hi devs,
>>>>>
>>>>> In the Roadmap proposal I've sent for XWiki 5.2 some days ago, there's
>>> this time:
>>>>>
>>>>> "
>>>>> * Have Workspace by default in XE + improved home page - Caty +
>>> Guillaume Delhumeau. FTR Guillaume is not a committer yet but he's going to
>>> work full time on XWiki development and especially on UI aspects from now
>>> on. Welcome aboard Guillaume, we need you! :)
>>>>> "
>>>>>
>>>>> Denis told me he didn't know about the proposal of having Workspaces
>>> integrated in the default XAR. Thus I'm sending this email to ensure we all
>>> agree about this.
>>>>>
>>>>> The rationale is:
>>>>>
>>>>> * It would be nice that when our users download XWiki (standalone
>>> version or install the default XAR) they get to see the power of XWiki. One
>>> of the very important differentiator of XWiki vs other wikis/solutions is
>>> our multi-tenancy feature and most of people downloading and installing
>>> XWiki don't see it.
>>>>>
>>>>> * XEM/Wiki Manager are lacking polishing because the committers mostly
>>> polish the default which doesn't include those. The UIs of XEM/Wiki Manager
>>> need polishing. Having them in default will ensure that we take them into
>>> account and make them first class citizens when we develop.
>>>>>
>>>>> Caty started working on the home page/UI improvements required to
>>> integrate this by default:
>>>>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/MultiWiki
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's my +1
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is a major shift in how first-time users perceive XWiki. Without
>>>> multi-wiki features, it still looks like a wiki, but if the homepage
>>>> changes from a "welcome to your wiki" page to a "here are your
>>>> workspaces" portal, then suddenly XWiki "becomes" something else in the
>>>> eyes of our users. I used quotes since nothing changes on the inside,
>>>> the multiwiki feature has been there since the beginning, and the single
>>>> wiki mode can still be used.
>>>
>>> This isn't the plan as I mentioned in my previous emails. The plan is that
>>> the home page doesn't change. All that changes for a first time user
>>> installing XWiki is that the Add menu will have more entries (Add Workspace
>>> or Add Wiki or both, Caty is still working on the proposal).
>>>
>>
>> Proposals:
>>
>> * Changes to the Menu
>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/HomeMenu
>
> * "Add menu". I think you forgot to update the 3rd screenshots which the colibri skin, right?
>
> * "Home Menu". For 5.2 I don't think we should have the following since we don't have any UI for them:
> ** Administration. I don't even know what it means at the global portal/system level
> ** All documents. Currently we don't have a LT that displays all docs from all wikis
> ** Applications Index. I don't see what you would do in this one. Listing all apps for all wikis for quick navigation? Not sure it's needed
> ** Note: Users index should list all global users
> * I don't like very much "Home" as the menu name since that represents a single wiki (the main wiki). We already have a menu entry to represent the current wiki. I'd prefer to have a "System" or "Portal" or "Farm" or …, i.e. something that represents the whole system and have only system-wide actions in it.
>
> * "Wiki Menu". Should be the same as now + Users Index for listing all local users of the current wiki + Application Index for all apps of the current wiki, i.e. all actions that you can do on the current wiki
>
>> * Wiki/Workspace Creation
>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/CreateWikiImprovements
>> (please chose between Option A, B or C)
>
> Definitely +1 for B. I really think we need to drop the concept of workspaces and come back to the concept of wiki/subwiki. It's much simpler for the user. What we call "workspace" can be seen as a configuration for a wiki, i.e. the usage of global users only.

BTW for me the notion of workspaces should not exist at all and it should not be a template. A template is just a set of pages.

For me the choice for the user is just an option, i.e. whether he'd like his users to be managed locally or only globally.

Thanks
-Vincent

>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>> Thanks,
>> Caty
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> But this change in how XWiki is perceived has both advantages and
>>>> disadvantages. On one hand, it clearly shows users that XWiki is a
>>>> collaborative platform, not just a wiki, so people that need
>>>> collaboration more than just a wiki will be able to see that XWiki isn't
>>>> another boring wiki. On the other hand, people that are just looking for
>>>> a wiki that's nice to use and "not-ugly", might be put off by yet
>>>> another layer of complexity, and might drop XWiki from their list of
>>>> candidates. In other words, it alienates even more the kind of users
>>>> that already perceive XWiki as hard to use and overly complex.
>>>>
>>>> So, are we willing to trade one type of users for the other? It would be
>>>> in line with our vision of "enterprise collaboration", but I still think
>>>> we shouldn't voluntarily alienate any kind of users.
>>>>
>>>> An alternative is to wait for a real flavor, and then ask in the first
>>>> step of the distribution manager what kind of usage do we want. In the
>>>> meantime, we can still polish the pages that will go in the "workspaces"
>>>> flavor.
>>>>
>>>> So, -0 for switching to "workspaces only" in 5.2, unless we have really
>>>> good backwards compatibility and a flavor for a simple wiki for textual
>>>> collaboration.
>>>
>>> I hope the above allays your fears :)
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> -Vincent

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How to call a workspace? (Was: [VOTE] Integrate Workspaces by default in XWiki's default XAR)

Sergiu Dumitriu-2
In reply to this post by vmassol
On 07/30/2013 08:28 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
> Definitely +1 for B. I really think we need to drop the concept of workspaces and come back to the concept of wiki/subwiki. It's much simpler for the user. What we call "workspace" can be seen as a configuration for a wiki, i.e. the usage of global users only.

I disagree. For us XWiki veterans it's obvious that an XWiki wiki is an
all-powerful collection of applications and pages that can do anything
we want it to. But for users, a wiki is Wikipedia, where you can find
documentation written by amateurs that's hasn't been proof-read by a
real professional. It takes months or years of using a wiki to shift
from the external viewer bad opinion to the internal collaborator good
opinion of the term "wiki".

So "wiki" is a bad name for users. I think "workspace" is a much better
name than "wiki", although it's far from perfect. First of all because
it creates confusion between a "space" and a "workspace (wiki)".

So, what better word describes a "collaboration space" than "workspace"?

Some random ideas, most of them bad:
- node
- workgroup
- community
- rename space to directory and we can use space or workspace for the
current "wiki"
- virtual server
- environment
- sandbox
- appspace
- office
- location
- rack
- stack
- instance
- room
- workroom
- desk

Let's not forget that some of the instances are customized so much that
users don't even know they're using a wiki, so just seeing the word
"wiki" might cause confusion: "Wiki? What wiki? I'm using our company's
internal Foobars application!". So it would be a good idea to make this
term configurable.

--
Sergiu Dumitriu
http://purl.org/net/sergiu
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Re: [VOTE] Integrate Workspaces by default in XWiki's default XAR

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by vmassol

On Jul 30, 2013, at 1:26 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Caty,
>
> See below.
>
> On Jul 30, 2013, at 1:10 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 10:24 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 22, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 07/20/2013 07:33 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
>>>>> Hi devs,
>>>>>
>>>>> In the Roadmap proposal I've sent for XWiki 5.2 some days ago, there's
>>> this time:
>>>>>
>>>>> "
>>>>> * Have Workspace by default in XE + improved home page - Caty +
>>> Guillaume Delhumeau. FTR Guillaume is not a committer yet but he's going to
>>> work full time on XWiki development and especially on UI aspects from now
>>> on. Welcome aboard Guillaume, we need you! :)
>>>>> "
>>>>>
>>>>> Denis told me he didn't know about the proposal of having Workspaces
>>> integrated in the default XAR. Thus I'm sending this email to ensure we all
>>> agree about this.
>>>>>
>>>>> The rationale is:
>>>>>
>>>>> * It would be nice that when our users download XWiki (standalone
>>> version or install the default XAR) they get to see the power of XWiki. One
>>> of the very important differentiator of XWiki vs other wikis/solutions is
>>> our multi-tenancy feature and most of people downloading and installing
>>> XWiki don't see it.
>>>>>
>>>>> * XEM/Wiki Manager are lacking polishing because the committers mostly
>>> polish the default which doesn't include those. The UIs of XEM/Wiki Manager
>>> need polishing. Having them in default will ensure that we take them into
>>> account and make them first class citizens when we develop.
>>>>>
>>>>> Caty started working on the home page/UI improvements required to
>>> integrate this by default:
>>>>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/MultiWiki
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's my +1
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is a major shift in how first-time users perceive XWiki. Without
>>>> multi-wiki features, it still looks like a wiki, but if the homepage
>>>> changes from a "welcome to your wiki" page to a "here are your
>>>> workspaces" portal, then suddenly XWiki "becomes" something else in the
>>>> eyes of our users. I used quotes since nothing changes on the inside,
>>>> the multiwiki feature has been there since the beginning, and the single
>>>> wiki mode can still be used.
>>>
>>> This isn't the plan as I mentioned in my previous emails. The plan is that
>>> the home page doesn't change. All that changes for a first time user
>>> installing XWiki is that the Add menu will have more entries (Add Workspace
>>> or Add Wiki or both, Caty is still working on the proposal).
>>>
>>
>> Proposals:
>>
>> * Changes to the Menu
>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/HomeMenu
>
> * "Add menu". I think you forgot to update the 3rd screenshots which the colibri skin, right?
>
> * "Home Menu". For 5.2 I don't think we should have the following since we don't have any UI for them:
> ** Administration. I don't even know what it means at the global portal/system level
> ** All documents. Currently we don't have a LT that displays all docs from all wikis
> ** Applications Index. I don't see what you would do in this one. Listing all apps for all wikis for quick navigation? Not sure it's needed
> ** Note: Users index should list all global users
> * I don't like very much "Home" as the menu name since that represents a single wiki (the main wiki). We already have a menu entry to represent the current wiki. I'd prefer to have a "System" or "Portal" or "Farm" or …, i.e. something that represents the whole system and have only system-wide actions in it.

After more thoughts I think it's ok for a first version to have the new "Home" menu entry to represent the main wiki. However all subwikis menu entries should have the same entries except for "Wiki Index" which should only be in "Home".

In the future though, in the new model, we'll have a notion of System (farm of wikis) and maybe we'll implement it differently than in a wiki. But we can take care of this at that time… ;)

Right now the more important for me is to agree that we have only 1 concept: the notion of "Wiki" and to replace the notion of "Workspace" just by a checkbox in the wiki creation wizard:
"Allow creating local users" (which is unchecked by default).

Note that we'll also need in 5.3+ a new right IMO: the right of creating a new wiki. For 5.2 we could just have a check in the wiki creation wizard page (for example on the user having Admin rights on the main wiki). If an Admin wants to change that to allow everyone to create a wiki he could edit that page and change the check.

WDYT?

Thanks
-Vincent

> * "Wiki Menu". Should be the same as now + Users Index for listing all local users of the current wiki + Application Index for all apps of the current wiki, i.e. all actions that you can do on the current wiki
>
>> * Wiki/Workspace Creation
>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/CreateWikiImprovements
>> (please chose between Option A, B or C)
>
> Definitely +1 for B. I really think we need to drop the concept of workspaces and come back to the concept of wiki/subwiki. It's much simpler for the user. What we call "workspace" can be seen as a configuration for a wiki, i.e. the usage of global users only.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>> Thanks,
>> Caty
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> But this change in how XWiki is perceived has both advantages and
>>>> disadvantages. On one hand, it clearly shows users that XWiki is a
>>>> collaborative platform, not just a wiki, so people that need
>>>> collaboration more than just a wiki will be able to see that XWiki isn't
>>>> another boring wiki. On the other hand, people that are just looking for
>>>> a wiki that's nice to use and "not-ugly", might be put off by yet
>>>> another layer of complexity, and might drop XWiki from their list of
>>>> candidates. In other words, it alienates even more the kind of users
>>>> that already perceive XWiki as hard to use and overly complex.
>>>>
>>>> So, are we willing to trade one type of users for the other? It would be
>>>> in line with our vision of "enterprise collaboration", but I still think
>>>> we shouldn't voluntarily alienate any kind of users.
>>>>
>>>> An alternative is to wait for a real flavor, and then ask in the first
>>>> step of the distribution manager what kind of usage do we want. In the
>>>> meantime, we can still polish the pages that will go in the "workspaces"
>>>> flavor.
>>>>
>>>> So, -0 for switching to "workspaces only" in 5.2, unless we have really
>>>> good backwards compatibility and a flavor for a simple wiki for textual
>>>> collaboration.
>>>
>>> I hope the above allays your fears :)
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> -Vincent

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Re: [VOTE] Integrate Workspaces by default in XWiki's default XAR

Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau
Hi everyone!

I vote for B.

I think we should completely *drop the notion of workspaces* and *only have
the notion of "subwikis"*. During the creation wizard, we just add an
option "use the global users only" that the user can enable or not (it
should be enabled by default). So there is no type.

Then we drop the WikiManager and the WorkspaceManager UIs, and we create *a
new unified one to manage all the subwikis*.

On the wiki index, we could show all the wikis where the user have the
"view" right. All others wikis will be hidden for him (I think it is the
use case of myxwiki.org).

In this way, everything is more simple and both the use case of current
wiki farm and workspaces are supported.

Thanks,

Louis-Marie

2013/7/30 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>

>
> On Jul 30, 2013, at 1:26 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi Caty,
> >
> > See below.
> >
> > On Jul 30, 2013, at 1:10 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 10:24 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> On Jul 22, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 07/20/2013 07:33 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
> >>>>> Hi devs,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In the Roadmap proposal I've sent for XWiki 5.2 some days ago,
> there's
> >>> this time:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "
> >>>>> * Have Workspace by default in XE + improved home page - Caty +
> >>> Guillaume Delhumeau. FTR Guillaume is not a committer yet but he's
> going to
> >>> work full time on XWiki development and especially on UI aspects from
> now
> >>> on. Welcome aboard Guillaume, we need you! :)
> >>>>> "
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Denis told me he didn't know about the proposal of having Workspaces
> >>> integrated in the default XAR. Thus I'm sending this email to ensure
> we all
> >>> agree about this.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The rationale is:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> * It would be nice that when our users download XWiki (standalone
> >>> version or install the default XAR) they get to see the power of
> XWiki. One
> >>> of the very important differentiator of XWiki vs other wikis/solutions
> is
> >>> our multi-tenancy feature and most of people downloading and installing
> >>> XWiki don't see it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> * XEM/Wiki Manager are lacking polishing because the committers
> mostly
> >>> polish the default which doesn't include those. The UIs of XEM/Wiki
> Manager
> >>> need polishing. Having them in default will ensure that we take them
> into
> >>> account and make them first class citizens when we develop.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Caty started working on the home page/UI improvements required to
> >>> integrate this by default:
> >>>>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/MultiWiki
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Here's my +1
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> This is a major shift in how first-time users perceive XWiki. Without
> >>>> multi-wiki features, it still looks like a wiki, but if the homepage
> >>>> changes from a "welcome to your wiki" page to a "here are your
> >>>> workspaces" portal, then suddenly XWiki "becomes" something else in
> the
> >>>> eyes of our users. I used quotes since nothing changes on the inside,
> >>>> the multiwiki feature has been there since the beginning, and the
> single
> >>>> wiki mode can still be used.
> >>>
> >>> This isn't the plan as I mentioned in my previous emails. The plan is
> that
> >>> the home page doesn't change. All that changes for a first time user
> >>> installing XWiki is that the Add menu will have more entries (Add
> Workspace
> >>> or Add Wiki or both, Caty is still working on the proposal).
> >>>
> >>
> >> Proposals:
> >>
> >> * Changes to the Menu
> >> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/HomeMenu
> >
> > * "Add menu". I think you forgot to update the 3rd screenshots which the
> colibri skin, right?
> >
> > * "Home Menu". For 5.2 I don't think we should have the following since
> we don't have any UI for them:
> > ** Administration. I don't even know what it means at the global
> portal/system level
> > ** All documents. Currently we don't have a LT that displays all docs
> from all wikis
> > ** Applications Index. I don't see what you would do in this one.
> Listing all apps for all wikis for quick navigation? Not sure it's needed
> > ** Note: Users index should list all global users
> > * I don't like very much "Home" as the menu name since that represents a
> single wiki (the main wiki). We already have a menu entry to represent the
> current wiki. I'd prefer to have a "System" or "Portal" or "Farm" or …,
> i.e. something that represents the whole system and have only system-wide
> actions in it.
>
> After more thoughts I think it's ok for a first version to have the new
> "Home" menu entry to represent the main wiki. However all subwikis menu
> entries should have the same entries except for "Wiki Index" which should
> only be in "Home".
>
> In the future though, in the new model, we'll have a notion of System
> (farm of wikis) and maybe we'll implement it differently than in a wiki.
> But we can take care of this at that time… ;)
>
> Right now the more important for me is to agree that we have only 1
> concept: the notion of "Wiki" and to replace the notion of "Workspace" just
> by a checkbox in the wiki creation wizard:
> "Allow creating local users" (which is unchecked by default).
>
> Note that we'll also need in 5.3+ a new right IMO: the right of creating a
> new wiki. For 5.2 we could just have a check in the wiki creation wizard
> page (for example on the user having Admin rights on the main wiki). If an
> Admin wants to change that to allow everyone to create a wiki he could edit
> that page and change the check.
>
> WDYT?
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> > * "Wiki Menu". Should be the same as now + Users Index for listing all
> local users of the current wiki + Application Index for all apps of the
> current wiki, i.e. all actions that you can do on the current wiki
> >
> >> * Wiki/Workspace Creation
> >>
> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/CreateWikiImprovements
> >> (please chose between Option A, B or C)
> >
> > Definitely +1 for B. I really think we need to drop the concept of
> workspaces and come back to the concept of wiki/subwiki. It's much simpler
> for the user. What we call "workspace" can be seen as a configuration for a
> wiki, i.e. the usage of global users only.
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> >
> >> Thanks,
> >> Caty
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>> But this change in how XWiki is perceived has both advantages and
> >>>> disadvantages. On one hand, it clearly shows users that XWiki is a
> >>>> collaborative platform, not just a wiki, so people that need
> >>>> collaboration more than just a wiki will be able to see that XWiki
> isn't
> >>>> another boring wiki. On the other hand, people that are just looking
> for
> >>>> a wiki that's nice to use and "not-ugly", might be put off by yet
> >>>> another layer of complexity, and might drop XWiki from their list of
> >>>> candidates. In other words, it alienates even more the kind of users
> >>>> that already perceive XWiki as hard to use and overly complex.
> >>>>
> >>>> So, are we willing to trade one type of users for the other? It would
> be
> >>>> in line with our vision of "enterprise collaboration", but I still
> think
> >>>> we shouldn't voluntarily alienate any kind of users.
> >>>>
> >>>> An alternative is to wait for a real flavor, and then ask in the first
> >>>> step of the distribution manager what kind of usage do we want. In the
> >>>> meantime, we can still polish the pages that will go in the
> "workspaces"
> >>>> flavor.
> >>>>
> >>>> So, -0 for switching to "workspaces only" in 5.2, unless we have
> really
> >>>> good backwards compatibility and a flavor for a simple wiki for
> textual
> >>>> collaboration.
> >>>
> >>> I hope the above allays your fears :)
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>> -Vincent
>
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: How to call a workspace? (Was: [VOTE] Integrate Workspaces by default in XWiki's default XAR)

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by Sergiu Dumitriu-2

On Jul 30, 2013, at 4:15 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 07/30/2013 08:28 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
>> Definitely +1 for B. I really think we need to drop the concept of workspaces and come back to the concept of wiki/subwiki. It's much simpler for the user. What we call "workspace" can be seen as a configuration for a wiki, i.e. the usage of global users only.
>
> I disagree. For us XWiki veterans it's obvious that an XWiki wiki is an
> all-powerful collection of applications and pages that can do anything
> we want it to. But for users, a wiki is Wikipedia, where you can find
> documentation written by amateurs that's hasn't been proof-read by a
> real professional. It takes months or years of using a wiki to shift
> from the external viewer bad opinion to the internal collaborator good
> opinion of the term "wiki".
>
> So "wiki" is a bad name for users. I think "workspace" is a much better
> name than "wiki", although it's far from perfect. First of all because
> it creates confusion between a "space" and a "workspace (wiki)".
>
> So, what better word describes a "collaboration space" than "workspace"?
>
> Some random ideas, most of them bad:
> - node
> - workgroup
> - community
> - rename space to directory and we can use space or workspace for the
> current "wiki"
> - virtual server
> - environment
> - sandbox
> - appspace
> - office
> - location
> - rack
> - stack
> - instance
> - room
> - workroom
> - desk

I'm not sure this is needed. XWiki is all about the notion of wiki… even in its name. The generic name "wiki" seems a much better name to me than anything else:
* it's a set of pages that can be edited/modified by users with links between pages, using some syntax, etc.

I don't think we need to change that. Any other name would be awkward IMO.

> Let's not forget that some of the instances are customized so much that
> users don't even know they're using a wiki, so just seeing the word
> "wiki" might cause confusion: "Wiki? What wiki? I'm using our company's
> internal Foobars application!". So it would be a good idea to make this
> term configurable.

If the instance is customized so much that it doesn't look like a wiki, then whoever did this customization can easily also customize the translation resources to pick whatever suit their needs! ;)

For example, if the wiki is used as a projects wiki and they want to have one project  = one wiki, they could rename "Wiki" to "Projects".

We'll never be able to use a specialized name by default so we might as well stick with "wiki" which is the best name for what it is… a wiki ;-)

Thanks
-Vincent

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Re: How to call a workspace? (Was: [VOTE] Integrate Workspaces by default in XWiki's default XAR)

Eduard Moraru
Just my point of view on this point, since I keep seeing similar topics
popping up once in a while...

For me, the "wiki" is the entire environment (main wiki + all its
subwikis), as a whole, by definition. Since they are all connected, it is
wrong to say that we are creating new wikis (subwikis) when, in fact, we
are just creating new "spaces"/"workspaces" (spaces where the user
does/groups/catalogues his work). Also, this view is enforced by our new
direction towards virtual by default and of making subwikis part of XWiki's
data model (including the new model).

Since we are currently lacking the hierarchy feature of the the new model,
and we are faking it technically (and maybe this is where the confusion
comes from) by using new wikis(subwikis) in new databases, the term
"workspace" would, IMO, remain the best candidate. If we consider the fact
that we want to make workspaces the default (as proven in practice), we
find that the "corner" cases are actually the term "wiki" (actually
"subwiki"), which occur only in farm deployments where, indeed, a subwiki
is a fully fledged and generally isolated "wiki" from the point of view of
the owner and its users.

Also, in an enterprise environment, try explaining each time to the
Accounting, Marketing, etc. departments that:
- a "wiki" is "a set of pages that can be edited/modified by users with
links between pages, using some syntax, etc."...
- a "workspace" is "a/the space where you (do *your*) work/collaborate"

+1 for "workspace" as first-class term being promoted to users
+1 for "wiki" as technical term being mentioned in documentation to admins
(specifically for farm deployments)

Also, being an enterprise wiki, I`m not sure we want to be labelled as the
company's "wiki" instead of the company's "collaboration tool" (or "tool
used to get our work done").

Thanks,
Eduard

P.S.: As a technical/background note, just not to be misunderstood, indeed,
a workspace is implemented as just a wiki right now with additional
restrictions to satisfy its usecase. However, this is only due to our
platform's limitations. Normally, a workspace should just be a space where
a user can install apps, create other sub-spaces, and collaborate with
others. The initial proposal (for the "Wiki 3.0" XWiki SAS research
project) was to actually use spaces to implement workspaces, but since we
could not install apps (among other things), we chose to use subwikis
instead.


On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 5:29 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Jul 30, 2013, at 4:15 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 07/30/2013 08:28 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
> >> Definitely +1 for B. I really think we need to drop the concept of
> workspaces and come back to the concept of wiki/subwiki. It's much simpler
> for the user. What we call "workspace" can be seen as a configuration for a
> wiki, i.e. the usage of global users only.
> >
> > I disagree. For us XWiki veterans it's obvious that an XWiki wiki is an
> > all-powerful collection of applications and pages that can do anything
> > we want it to. But for users, a wiki is Wikipedia, where you can find
> > documentation written by amateurs that's hasn't been proof-read by a
> > real professional. It takes months or years of using a wiki to shift
> > from the external viewer bad opinion to the internal collaborator good
> > opinion of the term "wiki".
> >
> > So "wiki" is a bad name for users. I think "workspace" is a much better
> > name than "wiki", although it's far from perfect. First of all because
> > it creates confusion between a "space" and a "workspace (wiki)".
> >
> > So, what better word describes a "collaboration space" than "workspace"?
> >
> > Some random ideas, most of them bad:
> > - node
> > - workgroup
> > - community
> > - rename space to directory and we can use space or workspace for the
> > current "wiki"
> > - virtual server
> > - environment
> > - sandbox
> > - appspace
> > - office
> > - location
> > - rack
> > - stack
> > - instance
> > - room
> > - workroom
> > - desk
>
> I'm not sure this is needed. XWiki is all about the notion of wiki… even
> in its name. The generic name "wiki" seems a much better name to me than
> anything else:
> * it's a set of pages that can be edited/modified by users with links
> between pages, using some syntax, etc.
>
> I don't think we need to change that. Any other name would be awkward IMO.
>
> > Let's not forget that some of the instances are customized so much that
> > users don't even know they're using a wiki, so just seeing the word
> > "wiki" might cause confusion: "Wiki? What wiki? I'm using our company's
> > internal Foobars application!". So it would be a good idea to make this
> > term configurable.
>
> If the instance is customized so much that it doesn't look like a wiki,
> then whoever did this customization can easily also customize the
> translation resources to pick whatever suit their needs! ;)
>
> For example, if the wiki is used as a projects wiki and they want to have
> one project  = one wiki, they could rename "Wiki" to "Projects".
>
> We'll never be able to use a specialized name by default so we might as
> well stick with "wiki" which is the best name for what it is… a wiki ;-)
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: How to call a workspace? (Was: [VOTE] Integrate Workspaces by default in XWiki's default XAR)

vmassol
Administrator

On Jul 30, 2013, at 5:53 PM, Eduard Moraru <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Just my point of view on this point, since I keep seeing similar topics
> popping up once in a while...
>
> For me, the "wiki" is the entire environment (main wiki + all its
> subwikis), as a whole, by definition. Since they are all connected, it is
> wrong to say that we are creating new wikis (subwikis) when, in fact, we
> are just creating new "spaces"/"workspaces" (spaces where the user
> does/groups/catalogues his work). Also, this view is enforced by our new
> direction towards virtual by default and of making subwikis part of XWiki's
> data model (including the new model).

In the future you'll be able to either:
- create wikis, they are real wikis.
- create nested spaces

So you'll be able to choose the way you want to organize yourself by either creating a (sub)wiki or a (nested)space.

The notion of "workspace" is not needed in either case:
- for (sub)wikis, it matches with the notion of a wiki and flavors
- for (nested)space, it matches with the notion of a space + space template (which I guess could also be implemented as a flavor in the future)

> Since we are currently lacking the hierarchy feature of the the new model,
> and we are faking it technically (and maybe this is where the confusion
> comes from) by using new wikis(subwikis) in new databases, the term
> "workspace" would, IMO, remain the best candidate.

I don't agree. The "workspace" feature was done ad-hoc outside of the platform and as a consequence was thought as an add-on. Now, what we are doing and preparing for the future is to have the notion of subwiki at the core of XWiki. And this concept of workspace is no longer needed as something adhoc. It can be integrated in the platform.

What is a workspace:
* it's a set of pages/applications
* using existing users

Those 2 items can be done without the need for any new name/concept. A set of pages/applications is what we call a flavor. And the notion of users already exists (what we need to work on, is to have a config feature so that a subwiki can have or not have local users).

> If we consider the fact
> that we want to make workspaces the default (as proven in practice), we
> find that the "corner" cases are actually the term "wiki" (actually
> "subwiki"), which occur only in farm deployments where, indeed, a subwiki
> is a fully fledged and generally isolated "wiki" from the point of view of
> the owner and its users.
>
> Also, in an enterprise environment, try explaining each time to the
> Accounting, Marketing, etc. departments that:
> - a "wiki" is "a set of pages that can be edited/modified by users with
> links between pages, using some syntax, etc."...
> - a "workspace" is "a/the space where you (do *your*) work/collaborate"

I don't understand. Why have the 2 concepts? The idea of option B is to have only 1 concept: that of (sub)wikis.

> +1 for "workspace" as first-class term being promoted to users
> +1 for "wiki" as technical term being mentioned in documentation to admins
> (specifically for farm deployments)
>
> Also, being an enterprise wiki, I`m not sure we want to be labelled as the
> company's "wiki" instead of the company's "collaboration tool" (or "tool
> used to get our work done").
>
> Thanks,
> Eduard
>
> P.S.: As a technical/background note, just not to be misunderstood, indeed,
> a workspace is implemented as just a wiki right now with additional
> restrictions to satisfy its usecase. However, this is only due to our
> platform's limitations. Normally, a workspace should just be a space where
> a user can install apps, create other sub-spaces, and collaborate with
> others. The initial proposal (for the "Wiki 3.0" XWiki SAS research
> project) was to actually use spaces to implement workspaces, but since we
> could not install apps (among other things), we chose to use subwikis
> instead.

We still need the ability to "Add a new Wiki" in 5.2 so this doesn't change anything.

And if in the future we support nested spaces then users will also be able to use them + space templates with flavors.

So for me that makes it even more important to not introduce the notion of "workspaces" in 5.2 and to only have the notion of adding a (sub)wiki :)

Thanks
-Vincent

> On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 5:29 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jul 30, 2013, at 4:15 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 07/30/2013 08:28 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
>>>> Definitely +1 for B. I really think we need to drop the concept of
>> workspaces and come back to the concept of wiki/subwiki. It's much simpler
>> for the user. What we call "workspace" can be seen as a configuration for a
>> wiki, i.e. the usage of global users only.
>>>
>>> I disagree. For us XWiki veterans it's obvious that an XWiki wiki is an
>>> all-powerful collection of applications and pages that can do anything
>>> we want it to. But for users, a wiki is Wikipedia, where you can find
>>> documentation written by amateurs that's hasn't been proof-read by a
>>> real professional. It takes months or years of using a wiki to shift
>>> from the external viewer bad opinion to the internal collaborator good
>>> opinion of the term "wiki".
>>>
>>> So "wiki" is a bad name for users. I think "workspace" is a much better
>>> name than "wiki", although it's far from perfect. First of all because
>>> it creates confusion between a "space" and a "workspace (wiki)".
>>>
>>> So, what better word describes a "collaboration space" than "workspace"?
>>>
>>> Some random ideas, most of them bad:
>>> - node
>>> - workgroup
>>> - community
>>> - rename space to directory and we can use space or workspace for the
>>> current "wiki"
>>> - virtual server
>>> - environment
>>> - sandbox
>>> - appspace
>>> - office
>>> - location
>>> - rack
>>> - stack
>>> - instance
>>> - room
>>> - workroom
>>> - desk
>>
>> I'm not sure this is needed. XWiki is all about the notion of wiki… even
>> in its name. The generic name "wiki" seems a much better name to me than
>> anything else:
>> * it's a set of pages that can be edited/modified by users with links
>> between pages, using some syntax, etc.
>>
>> I don't think we need to change that. Any other name would be awkward IMO.
>>
>>> Let's not forget that some of the instances are customized so much that
>>> users don't even know they're using a wiki, so just seeing the word
>>> "wiki" might cause confusion: "Wiki? What wiki? I'm using our company's
>>> internal Foobars application!". So it would be a good idea to make this
>>> term configurable.
>>
>> If the instance is customized so much that it doesn't look like a wiki,
>> then whoever did this customization can easily also customize the
>> translation resources to pick whatever suit their needs! ;)
>>
>> For example, if the wiki is used as a projects wiki and they want to have
>> one project  = one wiki, they could rename "Wiki" to "Projects".
>>
>> We'll never be able to use a specialized name by default so we might as
>> well stick with "wiki" which is the best name for what it is… a wiki ;-)
>>
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent

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Re: How to call a workspace? (Was: [VOTE] Integrate Workspaces by default in XWiki's default XAR)

Eduard Moraru
On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 7:15 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Jul 30, 2013, at 5:53 PM, Eduard Moraru <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Just my point of view on this point, since I keep seeing similar topics
> > popping up once in a while...
> >
> > For me, the "wiki" is the entire environment (main wiki + all its
> > subwikis), as a whole, by definition. Since they are all connected, it is
> > wrong to say that we are creating new wikis (subwikis) when, in fact, we
> > are just creating new "spaces"/"workspaces" (spaces where the user
> > does/groups/catalogues his work). Also, this view is enforced by our new
> > direction towards virtual by default and of making subwikis part of
> XWiki's
> > data model (including the new model).
>
> In the future you'll be able to either:
> - create wikis, they are real wikis.
> - create nested spaces
>
> So you'll be able to choose the way you want to organize yourself by
> either creating a (sub)wiki or a (nested)space.
>
> The notion of "workspace" is not needed in either case:
> - for (sub)wikis, it matches with the notion of a wiki and flavors
> - for (nested)space, it matches with the notion of a space + space
> template (which I guess could also be implemented as a flavor in the
> future)
>

> > Since we are currently lacking the hierarchy feature of the the new
> model,
> > and we are faking it technically (and maybe this is where the confusion
> > comes from) by using new wikis(subwikis) in new databases, the term
> > "workspace" would, IMO, remain the best candidate.
>
> I don't agree. The "workspace" feature was done ad-hoc outside of the
> platform and as a consequence was thought as an add-on. Now, what we are
> doing and preparing for the future is to have the notion of subwiki at the
> core of XWiki. And this concept of workspace is no longer needed as
> something adhoc. It can be integrated in the platform.
>
> What is a workspace:
> * it's a set of pages/applications
> * using existing users
>
> Those 2 items can be done without the need for any new name/concept. A set
> of pages/applications is what we call a flavor. And the notion of users
> already exists (what we need to work on, is to have a config feature so
> that a subwiki can have or not have local users).
>
> > If we consider the fact
> > that we want to make workspaces the default (as proven in practice), we
> > find that the "corner" cases are actually the term "wiki" (actually
> > "subwiki"), which occur only in farm deployments where, indeed, a subwiki
> > is a fully fledged and generally isolated "wiki" from the point of view
> of
> > the owner and its users.
> >
> > Also, in an enterprise environment, try explaining each time to the
> > Accounting, Marketing, etc. departments that:
> > - a "wiki" is "a set of pages that can be edited/modified by users with
> > links between pages, using some syntax, etc."...
>

missing "OR" between these 2 lines. It was a comparison of terms, put in an
enterprise/user context.

Thanks,
Eduard

> - a "workspace" is "a/the space where you (do *your*) work/collaborate"
>
> I don't understand. Why have the 2 concepts? The idea of option B is to
> have only 1 concept: that of (sub)wikis.
>
> > +1 for "workspace" as first-class term being promoted to users
> > +1 for "wiki" as technical term being mentioned in documentation to
> admins
> > (specifically for farm deployments)
> >
> > Also, being an enterprise wiki, I`m not sure we want to be labelled as
> the
> > company's "wiki" instead of the company's "collaboration tool" (or "tool
> > used to get our work done").
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Eduard
> >
> > P.S.: As a technical/background note, just not to be misunderstood,
> indeed,
> > a workspace is implemented as just a wiki right now with additional
> > restrictions to satisfy its usecase. However, this is only due to our
> > platform's limitations. Normally, a workspace should just be a space
> where
> > a user can install apps, create other sub-spaces, and collaborate with
> > others. The initial proposal (for the "Wiki 3.0" XWiki SAS research
> > project) was to actually use spaces to implement workspaces, but since we
> > could not install apps (among other things), we chose to use subwikis
> > instead.
>
> We still need the ability to "Add a new Wiki" in 5.2 so this doesn't
> change anything.
>
> And if in the future we support nested spaces then users will also be able
> to use them + space templates with flavors.
>
> So for me that makes it even more important to not introduce the notion of
> "workspaces" in 5.2 and to only have the notion of adding a (sub)wiki :)
>

> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> > On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 5:29 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On Jul 30, 2013, at 4:15 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 07/30/2013 08:28 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
> >>>> Definitely +1 for B. I really think we need to drop the concept of
> >> workspaces and come back to the concept of wiki/subwiki. It's much
> simpler
> >> for the user. What we call "workspace" can be seen as a configuration
> for a
> >> wiki, i.e. the usage of global users only.
> >>>
> >>> I disagree. For us XWiki veterans it's obvious that an XWiki wiki is an
> >>> all-powerful collection of applications and pages that can do anything
> >>> we want it to. But for users, a wiki is Wikipedia, where you can find
> >>> documentation written by amateurs that's hasn't been proof-read by a
> >>> real professional. It takes months or years of using a wiki to shift
> >>> from the external viewer bad opinion to the internal collaborator good
> >>> opinion of the term "wiki".
> >>>
> >>> So "wiki" is a bad name for users. I think "workspace" is a much better
> >>> name than "wiki", although it's far from perfect. First of all because
> >>> it creates confusion between a "space" and a "workspace (wiki)".
> >>>
> >>> So, what better word describes a "collaboration space" than
> "workspace"?
> >>>
> >>> Some random ideas, most of them bad:
> >>> - node
> >>> - workgroup
> >>> - community
> >>> - rename space to directory and we can use space or workspace for the
> >>> current "wiki"
> >>> - virtual server
> >>> - environment
> >>> - sandbox
> >>> - appspace
> >>> - office
> >>> - location
> >>> - rack
> >>> - stack
> >>> - instance
> >>> - room
> >>> - workroom
> >>> - desk
> >>
> >> I'm not sure this is needed. XWiki is all about the notion of wiki… even
> >> in its name. The generic name "wiki" seems a much better name to me than
> >> anything else:
> >> * it's a set of pages that can be edited/modified by users with links
> >> between pages, using some syntax, etc.
> >>
> >> I don't think we need to change that. Any other name would be awkward
> IMO.
> >>
> >>> Let's not forget that some of the instances are customized so much that
> >>> users don't even know they're using a wiki, so just seeing the word
> >>> "wiki" might cause confusion: "Wiki? What wiki? I'm using our company's
> >>> internal Foobars application!". So it would be a good idea to make this
> >>> term configurable.
> >>
> >> If the instance is customized so much that it doesn't look like a wiki,
> >> then whoever did this customization can easily also customize the
> >> translation resources to pick whatever suit their needs! ;)
> >>
> >> For example, if the wiki is used as a projects wiki and they want to
> have
> >> one project  = one wiki, they could rename "Wiki" to "Projects".
> >>
> >> We'll never be able to use a specialized name by default so we might as
> >> well stick with "wiki" which is the best name for what it is… a wiki ;-)
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> -Vincent
>
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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