[VOTE] Is it OK to edit a standard color theme

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[VOTE] Is it OK to edit a standard color theme

Thomas Mortagne
Administrator
Hi xwikiers,

Following new XAR entry type mail here is a question about color
themes we provide in standard XWiki (Cerulean, Charcoal, etc.).

1) Standard stuff, if you want a custom color theme create a new one
(would be nice to be able to copy a standard one and propose it when
you try to edit a standard one).

2) Demo content, edit and delete it all you want and upgrade won't
touch a customized theme to avoid surprises (background color changed
a bit in the standard version which now collide with your logo)

3) Same as 2 but delete is bad (same as home page)

WDYT ?

I'm think I prefer 1) but I'm OK with 3) if other think it's more
example than standard material. Let's say -0 for 2).

Thanks,
--
Thomas Mortagne
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Re: [VOTE] Is it OK to edit a standard color theme

Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
The major problem is that some users reused the Color Themes as they were,
but they have "customized" them by adding their own logo.

On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Thomas Mortagne <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi xwikiers,
>
> Following new XAR entry type mail here is a question about color
> themes we provide in standard XWiki (Cerulean, Charcoal, etc.).
>
> 1) Standard stuff, if you want a custom color theme create a new one
> (would be nice to be able to copy a standard one and propose it when
> you try to edit a standard one).
>
> 2) Demo content, edit and delete it all you want and upgrade won't
> touch a customized theme to avoid surprises (background color changed
> a bit in the standard version which now collide with your logo)
>
> 3) Same as 2 but delete is bad (same as home page)
>
> WDYT ?
>
> I'm think I prefer 1) but I'm OK with 3) if other think it's more
> example than standard material. Let's say -0 for 2).
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Thomas Mortagne
>
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Re: [VOTE] Is it OK to edit a standard color theme

Thomas Mortagne
Administrator
Yes that's why I sent this mail.

But as I suggested there is always ways to make them not do that if we
want those theme to stay standard. For example the UI could automate a
bit the creation of a copy of the standard theme you want to customize
(ask you the new name, etc.).

On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 12:47 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> The major problem is that some users reused the Color Themes as they were,
> but they have "customized" them by adding their own logo.
>
> On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Thomas Mortagne <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi xwikiers,
>>
>> Following new XAR entry type mail here is a question about color
>> themes we provide in standard XWiki (Cerulean, Charcoal, etc.).
>>
>> 1) Standard stuff, if you want a custom color theme create a new one
>> (would be nice to be able to copy a standard one and propose it when
>> you try to edit a standard one).
>>
>> 2) Demo content, edit and delete it all you want and upgrade won't
>> touch a customized theme to avoid surprises (background color changed
>> a bit in the standard version which now collide with your logo)
>>
>> 3) Same as 2 but delete is bad (same as home page)
>>
>> WDYT ?
>>
>> I'm think I prefer 1) but I'm OK with 3) if other think it's more
>> example than standard material. Let's say -0 for 2).
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --
>> Thomas Mortagne
>>



--
Thomas Mortagne
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Re: [VOTE] Is it OK to edit a standard color theme

Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
I don't know why I don't like this "copy" solution. Maybe because
everything will feel less "wiki" like.
Everything will become like a template, including color themes. Lot's of
duplication instead of relying on the history.

Another solution (that applies only for the use case of Color Themes and
Skins) would be to externalize the Logo property.

On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 2:38 PM, Thomas Mortagne <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Yes that's why I sent this mail.
>
> But as I suggested there is always ways to make them not do that if we
> want those theme to stay standard. For example the UI could automate a
> bit the creation of a copy of the standard theme you want to customize
> (ask you the new name, etc.).
>
> On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 12:47 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > The major problem is that some users reused the Color Themes as they
> were,
> > but they have "customized" them by adding their own logo.
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Thomas Mortagne <
> [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hi xwikiers,
> >>
> >> Following new XAR entry type mail here is a question about color
> >> themes we provide in standard XWiki (Cerulean, Charcoal, etc.).
> >>
> >> 1) Standard stuff, if you want a custom color theme create a new one
> >> (would be nice to be able to copy a standard one and propose it when
> >> you try to edit a standard one).
> >>
> >> 2) Demo content, edit and delete it all you want and upgrade won't
> >> touch a customized theme to avoid surprises (background color changed
> >> a bit in the standard version which now collide with your logo)
> >>
> >> 3) Same as 2 but delete is bad (same as home page)
> >>
> >> WDYT ?
> >>
> >> I'm think I prefer 1) but I'm OK with 3) if other think it's more
> >> example than standard material. Let's say -0 for 2).
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> --
> >> Thomas Mortagne
> >>
>
>
>
> --
> Thomas Mortagne
>
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Re: [VOTE] Is it OK to edit a standard color theme

Guillaume Delhumeau
2018-04-23 13:46 GMT+02:00 Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <[hidden email]>:

> I don't know why I don't like this "copy" solution. Maybe because
> everything will feel less "wiki" like.
> Everything will become like a template, including color themes. Lot's of
> duplication instead of relying on the history.
>
> Another solution (that applies only for the use case of Color Themes and
> Skins) would be to externalize the Logo property.
>

+10000


>
> On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 2:38 PM, Thomas Mortagne <
> [hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Yes that's why I sent this mail.
> >
> > But as I suggested there is always ways to make them not do that if we
> > want those theme to stay standard. For example the UI could automate a
> > bit the creation of a copy of the standard theme you want to customize
> > (ask you the new name, etc.).
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 12:47 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > The major problem is that some users reused the Color Themes as they
> > were,
> > > but they have "customized" them by adding their own logo.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Thomas Mortagne <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi xwikiers,
> > >>
> > >> Following new XAR entry type mail here is a question about color
> > >> themes we provide in standard XWiki (Cerulean, Charcoal, etc.).
> > >>
> > >> 1) Standard stuff, if you want a custom color theme create a new one
> > >> (would be nice to be able to copy a standard one and propose it when
> > >> you try to edit a standard one).
> > >>
> > >> 2) Demo content, edit and delete it all you want and upgrade won't
> > >> touch a customized theme to avoid surprises (background color changed
> > >> a bit in the standard version which now collide with your logo)
> > >>
> > >> 3) Same as 2 but delete is bad (same as home page)
> > >>
> > >> WDYT ?
> > >>
> > >> I'm think I prefer 1) but I'm OK with 3) if other think it's more
> > >> example than standard material. Let's say -0 for 2).
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> --
> > >> Thomas Mortagne
> > >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thomas Mortagne
> >
>



--
Guillaume Delhumeau ([hidden email])
Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
Committer on the XWiki.org project
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Re: [VOTE] Is it OK to edit a standard color theme

Thomas Mortagne
Administrator
For the specific use case of the logo yes having it in the color theme
never been a good idea IMO.

But people will probably still want to customize a bit existing color
themes to feet they internal colors and stuff like these.

On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 1:48 PM, Guillaume Delhumeau
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2018-04-23 13:46 GMT+02:00 Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <[hidden email]>:
>
>> I don't know why I don't like this "copy" solution. Maybe because
>> everything will feel less "wiki" like.
>> Everything will become like a template, including color themes. Lot's of
>> duplication instead of relying on the history.
>>
>> Another solution (that applies only for the use case of Color Themes and
>> Skins) would be to externalize the Logo property.
>>
>
> +10000
>
>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 2:38 PM, Thomas Mortagne <
>> [hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Yes that's why I sent this mail.
>> >
>> > But as I suggested there is always ways to make them not do that if we
>> > want those theme to stay standard. For example the UI could automate a
>> > bit the creation of a copy of the standard theme you want to customize
>> > (ask you the new name, etc.).
>> >
>> > On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 12:47 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
>> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > > The major problem is that some users reused the Color Themes as they
>> > were,
>> > > but they have "customized" them by adding their own logo.
>> > >
>> > > On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Thomas Mortagne <
>> > [hidden email]>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Hi xwikiers,
>> > >>
>> > >> Following new XAR entry type mail here is a question about color
>> > >> themes we provide in standard XWiki (Cerulean, Charcoal, etc.).
>> > >>
>> > >> 1) Standard stuff, if you want a custom color theme create a new one
>> > >> (would be nice to be able to copy a standard one and propose it when
>> > >> you try to edit a standard one).
>> > >>
>> > >> 2) Demo content, edit and delete it all you want and upgrade won't
>> > >> touch a customized theme to avoid surprises (background color changed
>> > >> a bit in the standard version which now collide with your logo)
>> > >>
>> > >> 3) Same as 2 but delete is bad (same as home page)
>> > >>
>> > >> WDYT ?
>> > >>
>> > >> I'm think I prefer 1) but I'm OK with 3) if other think it's more
>> > >> example than standard material. Let's say -0 for 2).
>> > >>
>> > >> Thanks,
>> > >> --
>> > >> Thomas Mortagne
>> > >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Thomas Mortagne
>> >
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Guillaume Delhumeau ([hidden email])
> Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
> Committer on the XWiki.org project



--
Thomas Mortagne
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Re: [VOTE] Is it OK to edit a standard color theme

Marius Dumitru Florea
In reply to this post by Thomas Mortagne
Some of the users may see the default color theme as a set of configuration
properties, same as wiki preferences, that they can modify without the need
to create a copy first. So maybe we should separate the "default color
theme" from the rest of the color themes. I mean, if Iceberg is the default
color theme, we could provide 2 pages: "Iceberg" (the preset, with edit
protection) and "DefaultColorTheme" (which is a copy of Iceberg that is
editable).

On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Thomas Mortagne <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi xwikiers,
>
> Following new XAR entry type mail here is a question about color
> themes we provide in standard XWiki (Cerulean, Charcoal, etc.).
>
> 1) Standard stuff, if you want a custom color theme create a new one
> (would be nice to be able to copy a standard one and propose it when
> you try to edit a standard one).
>
> 2) Demo content, edit and delete it all you want and upgrade won't
> touch a customized theme to avoid surprises (background color changed
> a bit in the standard version which now collide with your logo)
>
> 3) Same as 2 but delete is bad (same as home page)
>
> WDYT ?
>
> I'm think I prefer 1) but I'm OK with 3) if other think it's more
> example than standard material. Let's say -0 for 2).
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Thomas Mortagne
>
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Re: [VOTE] Is it OK to edit a standard color theme

Thomas Mortagne
Administrator
Indeed that would probably be a good idea.

On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 3:54 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Some of the users may see the default color theme as a set of configuration
> properties, same as wiki preferences, that they can modify without the need
> to create a copy first. So maybe we should separate the "default color
> theme" from the rest of the color themes. I mean, if Iceberg is the default
> color theme, we could provide 2 pages: "Iceberg" (the preset, with edit
> protection) and "DefaultColorTheme" (which is a copy of Iceberg that is
> editable).
>
> On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Thomas Mortagne <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi xwikiers,
>>
>> Following new XAR entry type mail here is a question about color
>> themes we provide in standard XWiki (Cerulean, Charcoal, etc.).
>>
>> 1) Standard stuff, if you want a custom color theme create a new one
>> (would be nice to be able to copy a standard one and propose it when
>> you try to edit a standard one).
>>
>> 2) Demo content, edit and delete it all you want and upgrade won't
>> touch a customized theme to avoid surprises (background color changed
>> a bit in the standard version which now collide with your logo)
>>
>> 3) Same as 2 but delete is bad (same as home page)
>>
>> WDYT ?
>>
>> I'm think I prefer 1) but I'm OK with 3) if other think it's more
>> example than standard material. Let's say -0 for 2).
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --
>> Thomas Mortagne
>>



--
Thomas Mortagne
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Re: [VOTE] Is it OK to edit a standard color theme

vmassol
Administrator
In reply to this post by Thomas Mortagne
Is this a VOTE or a proposal or a brainstorming? I’m asking since nobody has voted yet, not even Thomas (except if we consider that “prefer” means +1 and “OK” means +0 ;)).

From the answer it seems we might need a new VOTE since several new points have been added to the discussion. I’m not able to VOTE right now.

Thanks
-Vincent

> On 23 Apr 2018, at 12:29, Thomas Mortagne <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi xwikiers,
>
> Following new XAR entry type mail here is a question about color
> themes we provide in standard XWiki (Cerulean, Charcoal, etc.).
>
> 1) Standard stuff, if you want a custom color theme create a new one
> (would be nice to be able to copy a standard one and propose it when
> you try to edit a standard one).
>
> 2) Demo content, edit and delete it all you want and upgrade won't
> touch a customized theme to avoid surprises (background color changed
> a bit in the standard version which now collide with your logo)
>
> 3) Same as 2 but delete is bad (same as home page)
>
> WDYT ?
>
> I'm think I prefer 1) but I'm OK with 3) if other think it's more
> example than standard material. Let's say -0 for 2).
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Thomas Mortagne

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Re: [VOTE] Is it OK to edit a standard color theme

vmassol
Administrator
To give my opinion, I’m hesitating about 2 approaches:

Approach 1: “standard"
==================

* We should have “Default Color Theme” be a copy from the Iceberg color theme page. I think I’d prefer the copy to be done at runtime; for example if the currently defined color theme page doesn’t exist when going to the L&F > Themes admin page, create it by copying Iceberg. This provides a self healing feature if the color theme page has been removed/doesn’t exist/etc.

* Predefined color theme pages should be considered “standard” and a warning message displayed if a user wants to edit them. BTW would be nice to have a feature to have a customized message per “type”. For example for color theme pages we would display a message saying that the user should copy the page to customize it instead of editing it.

* The Color Theme UI should also be improved a bit to have a “Customize” button on color theme pages that would perform a copy to let the user customize a theme.

Approach 2: “demo"
================

* Consider all color themes to be demo content and once the user starts modifying them don’t merge them anymore
* When we want to provide modified color themes, introduce new theme pages
* Don’t provide a “Default Color Theme” page. Directly set “Iceberg” to be the default CT.

Analysis
=======

Approach 2 is more wiki style and simpler for sure. Users can use the diff feature and the rollback feature if they want to go back to the original versions.

I think I’m leaning more towards 2 ATM.

Thanks
-Vincent

> On 25 Apr 2018, at 11:35, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Is this a VOTE or a proposal or a brainstorming? I’m asking since nobody has voted yet, not even Thomas (except if we consider that “prefer” means +1 and “OK” means +0 ;)).
>
> From the answer it seems we might need a new VOTE since several new points have been added to the discussion. I’m not able to VOTE right now.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>> On 23 Apr 2018, at 12:29, Thomas Mortagne <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi xwikiers,
>>
>> Following new XAR entry type mail here is a question about color
>> themes we provide in standard XWiki (Cerulean, Charcoal, etc.).
>>
>> 1) Standard stuff, if you want a custom color theme create a new one
>> (would be nice to be able to copy a standard one and propose it when
>> you try to edit a standard one).
>>
>> 2) Demo content, edit and delete it all you want and upgrade won't
>> touch a customized theme to avoid surprises (background color changed
>> a bit in the standard version which now collide with your logo)
>>
>> 3) Same as 2 but delete is bad (same as home page)
>>
>> WDYT ?
>>
>> I'm think I prefer 1) but I'm OK with 3) if other think it's more
>> example than standard material. Let's say -0 for 2).
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --
>> Thomas Mortagne
>

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Re: [VOTE] Is it OK to edit a standard color theme

Thomas Mortagne
Administrator
On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 12:08 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:

> To give my opinion, I’m hesitating about 2 approaches:
>
> Approach 1: “standard"
> ==================
>
> * We should have “Default Color Theme” be a copy from the Iceberg color theme page. I think I’d prefer the copy to be done at runtime; for example if the currently defined color theme page doesn’t exist when going to the L&F > Themes admin page, create it by copying Iceberg. This provides a self healing feature if the color theme page has been removed/doesn’t exist/etc.
>
> * Predefined color theme pages should be considered “standard” and a warning message displayed if a user wants to edit them. BTW would be nice to have a feature to have a customized message per “type”. For example for color theme pages we would display a message saying that the user should copy the page to customize it instead of editing it.
>
> * The Color Theme UI should also be improved a bit to have a “Customize” button on color theme pages that would perform a copy to let the user customize a theme.
>
> Approach 2: “demo"
> ================
>
> * Consider all color themes to be demo content and once the user starts modifying them don’t merge them anymore
> * When we want to provide modified color themes, introduce new theme pages
> * Don’t provide a “Default Color Theme” page. Directly set “Iceberg” to be the default CT.
>
> Analysis
> =======
>
> Approach 2 is more wiki style and simpler for sure. Users can use the diff feature and the rollback feature if they want to go back to the original versions.
>
> I think I’m leaning more towards 2 ATM.

So you think delete is OK too, right ?

>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>> On 25 Apr 2018, at 11:35, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Is this a VOTE or a proposal or a brainstorming? I’m asking since nobody has voted yet, not even Thomas (except if we consider that “prefer” means +1 and “OK” means +0 ;)).
>>
>> From the answer it seems we might need a new VOTE since several new points have been added to the discussion. I’m not able to VOTE right now.
>>
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent
>>
>>> On 23 Apr 2018, at 12:29, Thomas Mortagne <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi xwikiers,
>>>
>>> Following new XAR entry type mail here is a question about color
>>> themes we provide in standard XWiki (Cerulean, Charcoal, etc.).
>>>
>>> 1) Standard stuff, if you want a custom color theme create a new one
>>> (would be nice to be able to copy a standard one and propose it when
>>> you try to edit a standard one).
>>>
>>> 2) Demo content, edit and delete it all you want and upgrade won't
>>> touch a customized theme to avoid surprises (background color changed
>>> a bit in the standard version which now collide with your logo)
>>>
>>> 3) Same as 2 but delete is bad (same as home page)
>>>
>>> WDYT ?
>>>
>>> I'm think I prefer 1) but I'm OK with 3) if other think it's more
>>> example than standard material. Let's say -0 for 2).
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> --
>>> Thomas Mortagne
>>
>



--
Thomas Mortagne
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Re: [VOTE] Is it OK to edit a standard color theme

Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Thomas Mortagne <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 12:08 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > To give my opinion, I’m hesitating about 2 approaches:
> >
> > Approach 1: “standard"
> > ==================
> >
> > * We should have “Default Color Theme” be a copy from the Iceberg color
> theme page. I think I’d prefer the copy to be done at runtime; for example
> if the currently defined color theme page doesn’t exist when going to the
> L&F > Themes admin page, create it by copying Iceberg. This provides a self
> healing feature if the color theme page has been removed/doesn’t exist/etc.
> >
> > * Predefined color theme pages should be considered “standard” and a
> warning message displayed if a user wants to edit them. BTW would be nice
> to have a feature to have a customized message per “type”. For example for
> color theme pages we would display a message saying that the user should
> copy the page to customize it instead of editing it.
> >
> > * The Color Theme UI should also be improved a bit to have a “Customize”
> button on color theme pages that would perform a copy to let the user
> customize a theme.
> >
> > Approach 2: “demo"
> > ================
> >
> > * Consider all color themes to be demo content and once the user starts
> modifying them don’t merge them anymore
> > * When we want to provide modified color themes, introduce new theme
> pages
> > * Don’t provide a “Default Color Theme” page. Directly set “Iceberg” to
> be the default CT.
> >
> > Analysis
> > =======
> >
> > Approach 2 is more wiki style and simpler for sure. Users can use the
> diff feature and the rollback feature if they want to go back to the
> original versions.
> >
> > I think I’m leaning more towards 2 ATM.
>
> So you think delete is OK too, right ?
>

For me delete is ok too. IMO we should provide just a few themes by
default, and the user should be able to uninstall and install what themes
he wants (ideally he would be able to preview them live).

I don't like the copying part very much. Users like to have a base to start
from, but they also have history as a fallback.

Also we rarely make changes to ColorThemes, especially since they are not
very complex since they should contain only variables. Still it all depends
on how well the Default Theme is tested initially.

Thanks,
Caty


>
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> >
> >> On 25 Apr 2018, at 11:35, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Is this a VOTE or a proposal or a brainstorming? I’m asking since
> nobody has voted yet, not even Thomas (except if we consider that “prefer”
> means +1 and “OK” means +0 ;)).
> >>
> >> From the answer it seems we might need a new VOTE since several new
> points have been added to the discussion. I’m not able to VOTE right now.
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> -Vincent
> >>
> >>> On 23 Apr 2018, at 12:29, Thomas Mortagne <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi xwikiers,
> >>>
> >>> Following new XAR entry type mail here is a question about color
> >>> themes we provide in standard XWiki (Cerulean, Charcoal, etc.).
> >>>
> >>> 1) Standard stuff, if you want a custom color theme create a new one
> >>> (would be nice to be able to copy a standard one and propose it when
> >>> you try to edit a standard one).
> >>>
> >>> 2) Demo content, edit and delete it all you want and upgrade won't
> >>> touch a customized theme to avoid surprises (background color changed
> >>> a bit in the standard version which now collide with your logo)
> >>>
> >>> 3) Same as 2 but delete is bad (same as home page)
> >>>
> >>> WDYT ?
> >>>
> >>> I'm think I prefer 1) but I'm OK with 3) if other think it's more
> >>> example than standard material. Let's say -0 for 2).
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> --
> >>> Thomas Mortagne
> >>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Thomas Mortagne
>
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Re: [VOTE] Is it OK to edit a standard color theme

Thomas Mortagne
Administrator
So it seems that 2) is currently leading with Ecaterina and Vincent.

Guillaume I'm not sure if you prefer 2) or 3) (i.e. what do you think
about delete ?).

Marius, does your proposal means you are more for 1) but with the
difference that the default color theme would be allowed for edit ?

Any other point of view input ?

On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 1:50 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Thomas Mortagne <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 12:08 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> > To give my opinion, I’m hesitating about 2 approaches:
>> >
>> > Approach 1: “standard"
>> > ==================
>> >
>> > * We should have “Default Color Theme” be a copy from the Iceberg color
>> theme page. I think I’d prefer the copy to be done at runtime; for example
>> if the currently defined color theme page doesn’t exist when going to the
>> L&F > Themes admin page, create it by copying Iceberg. This provides a self
>> healing feature if the color theme page has been removed/doesn’t exist/etc.
>> >
>> > * Predefined color theme pages should be considered “standard” and a
>> warning message displayed if a user wants to edit them. BTW would be nice
>> to have a feature to have a customized message per “type”. For example for
>> color theme pages we would display a message saying that the user should
>> copy the page to customize it instead of editing it.
>> >
>> > * The Color Theme UI should also be improved a bit to have a “Customize”
>> button on color theme pages that would perform a copy to let the user
>> customize a theme.
>> >
>> > Approach 2: “demo"
>> > ================
>> >
>> > * Consider all color themes to be demo content and once the user starts
>> modifying them don’t merge them anymore
>> > * When we want to provide modified color themes, introduce new theme
>> pages
>> > * Don’t provide a “Default Color Theme” page. Directly set “Iceberg” to
>> be the default CT.
>> >
>> > Analysis
>> > =======
>> >
>> > Approach 2 is more wiki style and simpler for sure. Users can use the
>> diff feature and the rollback feature if they want to go back to the
>> original versions.
>> >
>> > I think I’m leaning more towards 2 ATM.
>>
>> So you think delete is OK too, right ?
>>
>
> For me delete is ok too. IMO we should provide just a few themes by
> default, and the user should be able to uninstall and install what themes
> he wants (ideally he would be able to preview them live).
>
> I don't like the copying part very much. Users like to have a base to start
> from, but they also have history as a fallback.
>
> Also we rarely make changes to ColorThemes, especially since they are not
> very complex since they should contain only variables. Still it all depends
> on how well the Default Theme is tested initially.
>
> Thanks,
> Caty
>
>
>>
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> > -Vincent
>> >
>> >> On 25 Apr 2018, at 11:35, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Is this a VOTE or a proposal or a brainstorming? I’m asking since
>> nobody has voted yet, not even Thomas (except if we consider that “prefer”
>> means +1 and “OK” means +0 ;)).
>> >>
>> >> From the answer it seems we might need a new VOTE since several new
>> points have been added to the discussion. I’m not able to VOTE right now.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks
>> >> -Vincent
>> >>
>> >>> On 23 Apr 2018, at 12:29, Thomas Mortagne <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi xwikiers,
>> >>>
>> >>> Following new XAR entry type mail here is a question about color
>> >>> themes we provide in standard XWiki (Cerulean, Charcoal, etc.).
>> >>>
>> >>> 1) Standard stuff, if you want a custom color theme create a new one
>> >>> (would be nice to be able to copy a standard one and propose it when
>> >>> you try to edit a standard one).
>> >>>
>> >>> 2) Demo content, edit and delete it all you want and upgrade won't
>> >>> touch a customized theme to avoid surprises (background color changed
>> >>> a bit in the standard version which now collide with your logo)
>> >>>
>> >>> 3) Same as 2 but delete is bad (same as home page)
>> >>>
>> >>> WDYT ?
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm think I prefer 1) but I'm OK with 3) if other think it's more
>> >>> example than standard material. Let's say -0 for 2).
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks,
>> >>> --
>> >>> Thomas Mortagne
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Thomas Mortagne
>>



--
Thomas Mortagne
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Re: [VOTE] Is it OK to edit a standard color theme

Marius Dumitru Florea
On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 4:53 PM, Thomas Mortagne <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> So it seems that 2) is currently leading with Ecaterina and Vincent.
>
> Guillaume I'm not sure if you prefer 2) or 3) (i.e. what do you think
> about delete ?).
>
>

> Marius, does your proposal means you are more for 1) but with the
> difference that the default color theme would be allowed for edit ?
>

Yes, but I'm ok with 2)


>
> Any other point of view input ?
>
> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 1:50 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Thomas Mortagne <
> [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 12:08 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >> > To give my opinion, I’m hesitating about 2 approaches:
> >> >
> >> > Approach 1: “standard"
> >> > ==================
> >> >
> >> > * We should have “Default Color Theme” be a copy from the Iceberg
> color
> >> theme page. I think I’d prefer the copy to be done at runtime; for
> example
> >> if the currently defined color theme page doesn’t exist when going to
> the
> >> L&F > Themes admin page, create it by copying Iceberg. This provides a
> self
> >> healing feature if the color theme page has been removed/doesn’t
> exist/etc.
> >> >
> >> > * Predefined color theme pages should be considered “standard” and a
> >> warning message displayed if a user wants to edit them. BTW would be
> nice
> >> to have a feature to have a customized message per “type”. For example
> for
> >> color theme pages we would display a message saying that the user should
> >> copy the page to customize it instead of editing it.
> >> >
> >> > * The Color Theme UI should also be improved a bit to have a
> “Customize”
> >> button on color theme pages that would perform a copy to let the user
> >> customize a theme.
> >> >
> >> > Approach 2: “demo"
> >> > ================
> >> >
> >> > * Consider all color themes to be demo content and once the user
> starts
> >> modifying them don’t merge them anymore
> >> > * When we want to provide modified color themes, introduce new theme
> >> pages
> >> > * Don’t provide a “Default Color Theme” page. Directly set “Iceberg”
> to
> >> be the default CT.
> >> >
> >> > Analysis
> >> > =======
> >> >
> >> > Approach 2 is more wiki style and simpler for sure. Users can use the
> >> diff feature and the rollback feature if they want to go back to the
> >> original versions.
> >> >
> >> > I think I’m leaning more towards 2 ATM.
> >>
> >> So you think delete is OK too, right ?
> >>
> >
> > For me delete is ok too. IMO we should provide just a few themes by
> > default, and the user should be able to uninstall and install what themes
> > he wants (ideally he would be able to preview them live).
> >
> > I don't like the copying part very much. Users like to have a base to
> start
> > from, but they also have history as a fallback.
> >
> > Also we rarely make changes to ColorThemes, especially since they are not
> > very complex since they should contain only variables. Still it all
> depends
> > on how well the Default Theme is tested initially.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Caty
> >
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Thanks
> >> > -Vincent
> >> >
> >> >> On 25 Apr 2018, at 11:35, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Is this a VOTE or a proposal or a brainstorming? I’m asking since
> >> nobody has voted yet, not even Thomas (except if we consider that
> “prefer”
> >> means +1 and “OK” means +0 ;)).
> >> >>
> >> >> From the answer it seems we might need a new VOTE since several new
> >> points have been added to the discussion. I’m not able to VOTE right
> now.
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks
> >> >> -Vincent
> >> >>
> >> >>> On 23 Apr 2018, at 12:29, Thomas Mortagne <
> [hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Hi xwikiers,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Following new XAR entry type mail here is a question about color
> >> >>> themes we provide in standard XWiki (Cerulean, Charcoal, etc.).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> 1) Standard stuff, if you want a custom color theme create a new one
> >> >>> (would be nice to be able to copy a standard one and propose it when
> >> >>> you try to edit a standard one).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> 2) Demo content, edit and delete it all you want and upgrade won't
> >> >>> touch a customized theme to avoid surprises (background color
> changed
> >> >>> a bit in the standard version which now collide with your logo)
> >> >>>
> >> >>> 3) Same as 2 but delete is bad (same as home page)
> >> >>>
> >> >>> WDYT ?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I'm think I prefer 1) but I'm OK with 3) if other think it's more
> >> >>> example than standard material. Let's say -0 for 2).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Thanks,
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> Thomas Mortagne
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Thomas Mortagne
> >>
>
>
>
> --
> Thomas Mortagne
>
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Re: [VOTE] Is it OK to edit a standard color theme

Eduard Moraru
Hi,

I'm sorry, but nothing related to configuration inside pages looks very
"wiki-like" to me. We're not talking about content pages here, but rather
about a preset/pack of preferences (I would actually call them more code
than configuration, to be honest, since we're talking about CSS and LESS)
which have an identity. Once you start changing their values, they lose
their identity and you can't call them "Iceberg" or "Charcoal" (etc.)
anymore. Once you customize them, they are "CustomIceberg" or "MyIceberg"
(etc.), if you really want to preserve a hint of the base of your
customizations.

IMO, we should have a distinction between the default color themes and the
user contributed ones (this also includes customized copies of default
ones). I believe this would actually help the user in getting a better
understanding of what is going on instead of asking them to digg through
the document history, look at diffs, etc. Nobody wants to do that.

I don't like (-0) the idea of DefaultColorTheme being a useless copy of
Iceberg. If we want, we could store in an unexposed property of the
FlamingoThemes application what is the default color theme, so that the
user can have a "default" option or a "Reset to default" when choosing what
theme to use. Also, new versions of XWiki could update that property's
value (as part of the code), for when we will want to introduce a new
"default" theme for future versions of XWiki. I believe users need to be
able to see and easily experience new features, without asking them to drop
their customizations or write code (i.e. compared to what they would get if
they intall a new/clean XWiki instance with the latest version).

I do like (+1) the other 2 bullet points of Approach 1 ("standard").
Hitting "Customize" when using a standard theme should generate you a copy
for your customization which you can then select from the list and apply.
Heck, we could even make a nice distinction in the UI (or at least in the
Select input) between the standard themes and the custom(-ized) ones.

IMO, the important part to distinguish the fact that the configuration part
(for a regular, non-dev) is choosing *which* color theme to use, while the
customization (i.e. coding, done by someone that understands CSS/LESS, in
this case) part is editing/customizing your own version of a color theme.
Should be easy to make the choice if we look at it this way, since it would
be similar to what we do for other parts of XWiki that need either
configuration (i.e. choosing *what* to use) and that might need also some
customization (i.e. modifying or defining *how* that choice will perform
its job).


General note/rant/reiteration: I am very much in favor of resisting the
urge to "edit everything" (that's what actually got us to the current
"problem"), even if it is a wiki at heart, since no software maintainers
can provide you any time of support or upgrade paths that can factor in the
fact that you are just barging in and making a beautiful mess of the code
they developed. IMO, we just need to draw the line where the software ends
and the wiki begins, otherwise users will be trapped/stuck with outdated
and un-upgradable XWiki versions and will be regretting their choice. We
need to think of the admins as well, and not only from the POV of the dev
that wants to make everything possible. You should not need a developer
(possibly the original developer of the project/customizations) in order to
make a really basic operation such as an upgrade. Maybe I'm saying
"sometimes less is more"? :)


Thanks,
Eduard

On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 10:37 AM, Marius Dumitru Florea <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 4:53 PM, Thomas Mortagne <
> [hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > So it seems that 2) is currently leading with Ecaterina and Vincent.
> >
> > Guillaume I'm not sure if you prefer 2) or 3) (i.e. what do you think
> > about delete ?).
> >
> >
>
> > Marius, does your proposal means you are more for 1) but with the
> > difference that the default color theme would be allowed for edit ?
> >
>
> Yes, but I'm ok with 2)
>
>
> >
> > Any other point of view input ?
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 1:50 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Thomas Mortagne <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 12:08 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > To give my opinion, I’m hesitating about 2 approaches:
> > >> >
> > >> > Approach 1: “standard"
> > >> > ==================
> > >> >
> > >> > * We should have “Default Color Theme” be a copy from the Iceberg
> > color
> > >> theme page. I think I’d prefer the copy to be done at runtime; for
> > example
> > >> if the currently defined color theme page doesn’t exist when going to
> > the
> > >> L&F > Themes admin page, create it by copying Iceberg. This provides a
> > self
> > >> healing feature if the color theme page has been removed/doesn’t
> > exist/etc.
> > >> >
> > >> > * Predefined color theme pages should be considered “standard” and a
> > >> warning message displayed if a user wants to edit them. BTW would be
> > nice
> > >> to have a feature to have a customized message per “type”. For example
> > for
> > >> color theme pages we would display a message saying that the user
> should
> > >> copy the page to customize it instead of editing it.
> > >> >
> > >> > * The Color Theme UI should also be improved a bit to have a
> > “Customize”
> > >> button on color theme pages that would perform a copy to let the user
> > >> customize a theme.
> > >> >
> > >> > Approach 2: “demo"
> > >> > ================
> > >> >
> > >> > * Consider all color themes to be demo content and once the user
> > starts
> > >> modifying them don’t merge them anymore
> > >> > * When we want to provide modified color themes, introduce new theme
> > >> pages
> > >> > * Don’t provide a “Default Color Theme” page. Directly set “Iceberg”
> > to
> > >> be the default CT.
> > >> >
> > >> > Analysis
> > >> > =======
> > >> >
> > >> > Approach 2 is more wiki style and simpler for sure. Users can use
> the
> > >> diff feature and the rollback feature if they want to go back to the
> > >> original versions.
> > >> >
> > >> > I think I’m leaning more towards 2 ATM.
> > >>
> > >> So you think delete is OK too, right ?
> > >>
> > >
> > > For me delete is ok too. IMO we should provide just a few themes by
> > > default, and the user should be able to uninstall and install what
> themes
> > > he wants (ideally he would be able to preview them live).
> > >
> > > I don't like the copying part very much. Users like to have a base to
> > start
> > > from, but they also have history as a fallback.
> > >
> > > Also we rarely make changes to ColorThemes, especially since they are
> not
> > > very complex since they should contain only variables. Still it all
> > depends
> > > on how well the Default Theme is tested initially.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Caty
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> > Thanks
> > >> > -Vincent
> > >> >
> > >> >> On 25 Apr 2018, at 11:35, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Is this a VOTE or a proposal or a brainstorming? I’m asking since
> > >> nobody has voted yet, not even Thomas (except if we consider that
> > “prefer”
> > >> means +1 and “OK” means +0 ;)).
> > >> >>
> > >> >> From the answer it seems we might need a new VOTE since several new
> > >> points have been added to the discussion. I’m not able to VOTE right
> > now.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Thanks
> > >> >> -Vincent
> > >> >>
> > >> >>> On 23 Apr 2018, at 12:29, Thomas Mortagne <
> > [hidden email]>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Hi xwikiers,
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Following new XAR entry type mail here is a question about color
> > >> >>> themes we provide in standard XWiki (Cerulean, Charcoal, etc.).
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> 1) Standard stuff, if you want a custom color theme create a new
> one
> > >> >>> (would be nice to be able to copy a standard one and propose it
> when
> > >> >>> you try to edit a standard one).
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> 2) Demo content, edit and delete it all you want and upgrade won't
> > >> >>> touch a customized theme to avoid surprises (background color
> > changed
> > >> >>> a bit in the standard version which now collide with your logo)
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> 3) Same as 2 but delete is bad (same as home page)
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> WDYT ?
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> I'm think I prefer 1) but I'm OK with 3) if other think it's more
> > >> >>> example than standard material. Let's say -0 for 2).
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Thanks,
> > >> >>> --
> > >> >>> Thomas Mortagne
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Thomas Mortagne
> > >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thomas Mortagne
> >
>
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Re: [VOTE] Is it OK to edit a standard color theme

vmassol
Administrator
Hi Edy,

Thanks for your input, see below.

> On 26 Apr 2018, at 11:42, Eduard Moraru <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm sorry, but nothing related to configuration inside pages looks very
> "wiki-like" to me.

[snip]

> You should not need a developer
> (possibly the original developer of the project/customizations) in order to
> make a really basic operation such as an upgrade. Maybe I'm saying
> "sometimes less is more"? :)

I’m just reacting to this part, hence the snipping :)

For me approach 1 is both the complex approach by far and completely unwiki-like. The wiki way is to be able to make easy edits and be able to rollback, see diffs, etc. That’s natural and fast. That’s why wikis are great and this is what we do everywhere in XWiki, including configurations since all configs are stored inside wiki pages (XWikiPreferences, *Config, etc). And we’re not going to change that now.

It would be the first time we copy something before allowing changing it and that’s not logical and not consistent.

In addition we would make a bigger mess since not only users would be directed to making copies of color themes pages but they would still be able to make modifications to current color theme pages…

The more I think about it, the more I’m convinced that approach 2 is both the simplest (and I agree that “less is more” :)) and the most logical.

You mentioned upgrade being a problem but I don’t think this is correct since approach 2 means that the color theme pages are “demo” pages meaning that there will never be any upgrade conflict. When we do new XWiki cycle versions, we will still be able to provide new color themes and since those are new (like Iceberg this year) users will be able to switch to them easily (there’s no upgrade issue either here).

Thanks
-Vincent

> Thanks,
> Eduard
>
> On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 10:37 AM, Marius Dumitru Florea <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 4:53 PM, Thomas Mortagne <
>> [hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> So it seems that 2) is currently leading with Ecaterina and Vincent.
>>>
>>> Guillaume I'm not sure if you prefer 2) or 3) (i.e. what do you think
>>> about delete ?).
>>>
>>>
>>
>>> Marius, does your proposal means you are more for 1) but with the
>>> difference that the default color theme would be allowed for edit ?
>>>
>>
>> Yes, but I'm ok with 2)
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Any other point of view input ?
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 1:50 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Thomas Mortagne <
>>> [hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 12:08 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> To give my opinion, I’m hesitating about 2 approaches:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Approach 1: “standard"
>>>>>> ==================
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * We should have “Default Color Theme” be a copy from the Iceberg
>>> color
>>>>> theme page. I think I’d prefer the copy to be done at runtime; for
>>> example
>>>>> if the currently defined color theme page doesn’t exist when going to
>>> the
>>>>> L&F > Themes admin page, create it by copying Iceberg. This provides a
>>> self
>>>>> healing feature if the color theme page has been removed/doesn’t
>>> exist/etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Predefined color theme pages should be considered “standard” and a
>>>>> warning message displayed if a user wants to edit them. BTW would be
>>> nice
>>>>> to have a feature to have a customized message per “type”. For example
>>> for
>>>>> color theme pages we would display a message saying that the user
>> should
>>>>> copy the page to customize it instead of editing it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * The Color Theme UI should also be improved a bit to have a
>>> “Customize”
>>>>> button on color theme pages that would perform a copy to let the user
>>>>> customize a theme.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Approach 2: “demo"
>>>>>> ================
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Consider all color themes to be demo content and once the user
>>> starts
>>>>> modifying them don’t merge them anymore
>>>>>> * When we want to provide modified color themes, introduce new theme
>>>>> pages
>>>>>> * Don’t provide a “Default Color Theme” page. Directly set “Iceberg”
>>> to
>>>>> be the default CT.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Analysis
>>>>>> =======
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Approach 2 is more wiki style and simpler for sure. Users can use
>> the
>>>>> diff feature and the rollback feature if they want to go back to the
>>>>> original versions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think I’m leaning more towards 2 ATM.
>>>>>
>>>>> So you think delete is OK too, right ?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For me delete is ok too. IMO we should provide just a few themes by
>>>> default, and the user should be able to uninstall and install what
>> themes
>>>> he wants (ideally he would be able to preview them live).
>>>>
>>>> I don't like the copying part very much. Users like to have a base to
>>> start
>>>> from, but they also have history as a fallback.
>>>>
>>>> Also we rarely make changes to ColorThemes, especially since they are
>> not
>>>> very complex since they should contain only variables. Still it all
>>> depends
>>>> on how well the Default Theme is tested initially.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Caty
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> -Vincent
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 25 Apr 2018, at 11:35, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is this a VOTE or a proposal or a brainstorming? I’m asking since
>>>>> nobody has voted yet, not even Thomas (except if we consider that
>>> “prefer”
>>>>> means +1 and “OK” means +0 ;)).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From the answer it seems we might need a new VOTE since several new
>>>>> points have been added to the discussion. I’m not able to VOTE right
>>> now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>> -Vincent
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 23 Apr 2018, at 12:29, Thomas Mortagne <
>>> [hidden email]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi xwikiers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Following new XAR entry type mail here is a question about color
>>>>>>>> themes we provide in standard XWiki (Cerulean, Charcoal, etc.).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1) Standard stuff, if you want a custom color theme create a new
>> one
>>>>>>>> (would be nice to be able to copy a standard one and propose it
>> when
>>>>>>>> you try to edit a standard one).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2) Demo content, edit and delete it all you want and upgrade won't
>>>>>>>> touch a customized theme to avoid surprises (background color
>>> changed
>>>>>>>> a bit in the standard version which now collide with your logo)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3) Same as 2 but delete is bad (same as home page)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> WDYT ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm think I prefer 1) but I'm OK with 3) if other think it's more
>>>>>>>> example than standard material. Let's say -0 for 2).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Thomas Mortagne
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Thomas Mortagne
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Thomas Mortagne
>>>
>>

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Re: [VOTE] Is it OK to edit a standard color theme

Guillaume Delhumeau
I vote for option 2 (but I'm fine with option 3 too)

2018-04-26 11:54 GMT+02:00 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>:

> Hi Edy,
>
> Thanks for your input, see below.
>
> > On 26 Apr 2018, at 11:42, Eduard Moraru <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm sorry, but nothing related to configuration inside pages looks very
> > "wiki-like" to me.
>
> [snip]
>
> > You should not need a developer
> > (possibly the original developer of the project/customizations) in order
> to
> > make a really basic operation such as an upgrade. Maybe I'm saying
> > "sometimes less is more"? :)
>
> I’m just reacting to this part, hence the snipping :)
>
> For me approach 1 is both the complex approach by far and completely
> unwiki-like. The wiki way is to be able to make easy edits and be able to
> rollback, see diffs, etc. That’s natural and fast. That’s why wikis are
> great and this is what we do everywhere in XWiki, including configurations
> since all configs are stored inside wiki pages (XWikiPreferences, *Config,
> etc). And we’re not going to change that now.
>
> It would be the first time we copy something before allowing changing it
> and that’s not logical and not consistent.
>
> In addition we would make a bigger mess since not only users would be
> directed to making copies of color themes pages but they would still be
> able to make modifications to current color theme pages…
>
> The more I think about it, the more I’m convinced that approach 2 is both
> the simplest (and I agree that “less is more” :)) and the most logical.
>
> You mentioned upgrade being a problem but I don’t think this is correct
> since approach 2 means that the color theme pages are “demo” pages meaning
> that there will never be any upgrade conflict. When we do new XWiki cycle
> versions, we will still be able to provide new color themes and since those
> are new (like Iceberg this year) users will be able to switch to them
> easily (there’s no upgrade issue either here).
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> > Thanks,
> > Eduard
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 10:37 AM, Marius Dumitru Florea <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 4:53 PM, Thomas Mortagne <
> >> [hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> So it seems that 2) is currently leading with Ecaterina and Vincent.
> >>>
> >>> Guillaume I'm not sure if you prefer 2) or 3) (i.e. what do you think
> >>> about delete ?).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>> Marius, does your proposal means you are more for 1) but with the
> >>> difference that the default color theme would be allowed for edit ?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Yes, but I'm ok with 2)
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Any other point of view input ?
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 1:50 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
> >>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Thomas Mortagne <
> >>> [hidden email]>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 12:08 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]
> >
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> To give my opinion, I’m hesitating about 2 approaches:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Approach 1: “standard"
> >>>>>> ==================
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> * We should have “Default Color Theme” be a copy from the Iceberg
> >>> color
> >>>>> theme page. I think I’d prefer the copy to be done at runtime; for
> >>> example
> >>>>> if the currently defined color theme page doesn’t exist when going to
> >>> the
> >>>>> L&F > Themes admin page, create it by copying Iceberg. This provides
> a
> >>> self
> >>>>> healing feature if the color theme page has been removed/doesn’t
> >>> exist/etc.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> * Predefined color theme pages should be considered “standard” and a
> >>>>> warning message displayed if a user wants to edit them. BTW would be
> >>> nice
> >>>>> to have a feature to have a customized message per “type”. For
> example
> >>> for
> >>>>> color theme pages we would display a message saying that the user
> >> should
> >>>>> copy the page to customize it instead of editing it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> * The Color Theme UI should also be improved a bit to have a
> >>> “Customize”
> >>>>> button on color theme pages that would perform a copy to let the user
> >>>>> customize a theme.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Approach 2: “demo"
> >>>>>> ================
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> * Consider all color themes to be demo content and once the user
> >>> starts
> >>>>> modifying them don’t merge them anymore
> >>>>>> * When we want to provide modified color themes, introduce new theme
> >>>>> pages
> >>>>>> * Don’t provide a “Default Color Theme” page. Directly set “Iceberg”
> >>> to
> >>>>> be the default CT.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Analysis
> >>>>>> =======
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Approach 2 is more wiki style and simpler for sure. Users can use
> >> the
> >>>>> diff feature and the rollback feature if they want to go back to the
> >>>>> original versions.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think I’m leaning more towards 2 ATM.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So you think delete is OK too, right ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> For me delete is ok too. IMO we should provide just a few themes by
> >>>> default, and the user should be able to uninstall and install what
> >> themes
> >>>> he wants (ideally he would be able to preview them live).
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't like the copying part very much. Users like to have a base to
> >>> start
> >>>> from, but they also have history as a fallback.
> >>>>
> >>>> Also we rarely make changes to ColorThemes, especially since they are
> >> not
> >>>> very complex since they should contain only variables. Still it all
> >>> depends
> >>>> on how well the Default Theme is tested initially.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>> Caty
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>> -Vincent
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 25 Apr 2018, at 11:35, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Is this a VOTE or a proposal or a brainstorming? I’m asking since
> >>>>> nobody has voted yet, not even Thomas (except if we consider that
> >>> “prefer”
> >>>>> means +1 and “OK” means +0 ;)).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> From the answer it seems we might need a new VOTE since several new
> >>>>> points have been added to the discussion. I’m not able to VOTE right
> >>> now.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>>> -Vincent
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 23 Apr 2018, at 12:29, Thomas Mortagne <
> >>> [hidden email]>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi xwikiers,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Following new XAR entry type mail here is a question about color
> >>>>>>>> themes we provide in standard XWiki (Cerulean, Charcoal, etc.).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 1) Standard stuff, if you want a custom color theme create a new
> >> one
> >>>>>>>> (would be nice to be able to copy a standard one and propose it
> >> when
> >>>>>>>> you try to edit a standard one).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 2) Demo content, edit and delete it all you want and upgrade won't
> >>>>>>>> touch a customized theme to avoid surprises (background color
> >>> changed
> >>>>>>>> a bit in the standard version which now collide with your logo)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 3) Same as 2 but delete is bad (same as home page)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> WDYT ?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I'm think I prefer 1) but I'm OK with 3) if other think it's more
> >>>>>>>> example than standard material. Let's say -0 for 2).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Thomas Mortagne
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Thomas Mortagne
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Thomas Mortagne
> >>>
> >>
>
>


--
Guillaume Delhumeau ([hidden email])
Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
Committer on the XWiki.org project
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Re: [VOTE] Is it OK to edit a standard color theme

Eduard Moraru
In reply to this post by vmassol
Hi, Vincent,

On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 12:54 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Edy,
>
> Thanks for your input, see below.
>
> > On 26 Apr 2018, at 11:42, Eduard Moraru <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm sorry, but nothing related to configuration inside pages looks very
> > "wiki-like" to me.
>
> [snip]
>
> > You should not need a developer
> > (possibly the original developer of the project/customizations) in order
> to
> > make a really basic operation such as an upgrade. Maybe I'm saying
> > "sometimes less is more"? :)
>
> I’m just reacting to this part, hence the snipping :)
>
> For me approach 1 is both the complex approach by far and completely
> unwiki-like. The wiki way is to be able to make easy edits and be able to
> rollback, see diffs, etc. That’s natural and fast. That’s why wikis are
> great and this is what we do everywhere in XWiki, including configurations
> since all configs are stored inside wiki pages (XWikiPreferences, *Config,
> etc). And we’re not going to change that now.
>

You missed something from those snips where I explained the way I saw this
and what might cause some confusion:

"IMO, the important part to distinguish the fact that the configuration
part (for a regular, non-dev) is choosing *which* color theme to use, while
the customization (i.e. coding, done by someone that understands CSS/LESS,
in this case) part is editing/customizing your own version of a color
theme."

i.e. Themes are not configuration, but actual code.


> It would be the first time we copy something before allowing changing it
> and that’s not logical and not consistent.
>

The whole discussion is about not allowing to edit something, which is a
first indeed, but we are moving in that direction, so of course there will
be some changes to the way XWiki works.


>
> In addition we would make a bigger mess since not only users would be
> directed to making copies of color themes pages but they would still be
> able to make modifications to current color theme pages…


> The more I think about it, the more I’m convinced that approach 2 is both
> the simplest (and I agree that “less is more” :)) and the most logical.
>
> You mentioned upgrade being a problem but I don’t think this is correct
> since approach 2 means that the color theme pages are “demo” pages meaning
> that there will never be any upgrade conflict. When we do new XWiki cycle
> versions, we will still be able to provide new color themes and since those
> are new (like Iceberg this year) users will be able to switch to them
> easily (there’s no upgrade issue either here).
>

Going again through the page types (specifically the "demo" one) and
through the options, I agree that, at least of the Color Themes case,
approach 2 should do the job. Of course, all of this being possible with
the contract that we don't update color themes and we always publish new
ones, of which I'm a bit skeptical.

So +0.5 for approach 2.

Thanks,
Eduard


>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> > Thanks,
> > Eduard
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 10:37 AM, Marius Dumitru Florea <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 4:53 PM, Thomas Mortagne <
> >> [hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> So it seems that 2) is currently leading with Ecaterina and Vincent.
> >>>
> >>> Guillaume I'm not sure if you prefer 2) or 3) (i.e. what do you think
> >>> about delete ?).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>> Marius, does your proposal means you are more for 1) but with the
> >>> difference that the default color theme would be allowed for edit ?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Yes, but I'm ok with 2)
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Any other point of view input ?
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 1:50 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
> >>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Thomas Mortagne <
> >>> [hidden email]>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 12:08 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]
> >
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> To give my opinion, I’m hesitating about 2 approaches:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Approach 1: “standard"
> >>>>>> ==================
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> * We should have “Default Color Theme” be a copy from the Iceberg
> >>> color
> >>>>> theme page. I think I’d prefer the copy to be done at runtime; for
> >>> example
> >>>>> if the currently defined color theme page doesn’t exist when going to
> >>> the
> >>>>> L&F > Themes admin page, create it by copying Iceberg. This provides
> a
> >>> self
> >>>>> healing feature if the color theme page has been removed/doesn’t
> >>> exist/etc.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> * Predefined color theme pages should be considered “standard” and a
> >>>>> warning message displayed if a user wants to edit them. BTW would be
> >>> nice
> >>>>> to have a feature to have a customized message per “type”. For
> example
> >>> for
> >>>>> color theme pages we would display a message saying that the user
> >> should
> >>>>> copy the page to customize it instead of editing it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> * The Color Theme UI should also be improved a bit to have a
> >>> “Customize”
> >>>>> button on color theme pages that would perform a copy to let the user
> >>>>> customize a theme.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Approach 2: “demo"
> >>>>>> ================
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> * Consider all color themes to be demo content and once the user
> >>> starts
> >>>>> modifying them don’t merge them anymore
> >>>>>> * When we want to provide modified color themes, introduce new theme
> >>>>> pages
> >>>>>> * Don’t provide a “Default Color Theme” page. Directly set “Iceberg”
> >>> to
> >>>>> be the default CT.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Analysis
> >>>>>> =======
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Approach 2 is more wiki style and simpler for sure. Users can use
> >> the
> >>>>> diff feature and the rollback feature if they want to go back to the
> >>>>> original versions.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think I’m leaning more towards 2 ATM.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So you think delete is OK too, right ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> For me delete is ok too. IMO we should provide just a few themes by
> >>>> default, and the user should be able to uninstall and install what
> >> themes
> >>>> he wants (ideally he would be able to preview them live).
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't like the copying part very much. Users like to have a base to
> >>> start
> >>>> from, but they also have history as a fallback.
> >>>>
> >>>> Also we rarely make changes to ColorThemes, especially since they are
> >> not
> >>>> very complex since they should contain only variables. Still it all
> >>> depends
> >>>> on how well the Default Theme is tested initially.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>> Caty
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>> -Vincent
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 25 Apr 2018, at 11:35, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Is this a VOTE or a proposal or a brainstorming? I’m asking since
> >>>>> nobody has voted yet, not even Thomas (except if we consider that
> >>> “prefer”
> >>>>> means +1 and “OK” means +0 ;)).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> From the answer it seems we might need a new VOTE since several new
> >>>>> points have been added to the discussion. I’m not able to VOTE right
> >>> now.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>>> -Vincent
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 23 Apr 2018, at 12:29, Thomas Mortagne <
> >>> [hidden email]>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi xwikiers,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Following new XAR entry type mail here is a question about color
> >>>>>>>> themes we provide in standard XWiki (Cerulean, Charcoal, etc.).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 1) Standard stuff, if you want a custom color theme create a new
> >> one
> >>>>>>>> (would be nice to be able to copy a standard one and propose it
> >> when
> >>>>>>>> you try to edit a standard one).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 2) Demo content, edit and delete it all you want and upgrade won't
> >>>>>>>> touch a customized theme to avoid surprises (background color
> >>> changed
> >>>>>>>> a bit in the standard version which now collide with your logo)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 3) Same as 2 but delete is bad (same as home page)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> WDYT ?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I'm think I prefer 1) but I'm OK with 3) if other think it's more
> >>>>>>>> example than standard material. Let's say -0 for 2).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Thomas Mortagne
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Thomas Mortagne
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Thomas Mortagne
> >>>
> >>
>
>
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Re: [VOTE] Is it OK to edit a standard color theme

Guillaume Delhumeau
2018-04-26 14:13 GMT+02:00 Eduard Moraru <[hidden email]>:

> Hi, Vincent,
>
> On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 12:54 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Edy,
> >
> > Thanks for your input, see below.
> >
> > > On 26 Apr 2018, at 11:42, Eduard Moraru <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I'm sorry, but nothing related to configuration inside pages looks very
> > > "wiki-like" to me.
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > You should not need a developer
> > > (possibly the original developer of the project/customizations) in
> order
> > to
> > > make a really basic operation such as an upgrade. Maybe I'm saying
> > > "sometimes less is more"? :)
> >
> > I’m just reacting to this part, hence the snipping :)
> >
> > For me approach 1 is both the complex approach by far and completely
> > unwiki-like. The wiki way is to be able to make easy edits and be able to
> > rollback, see diffs, etc. That’s natural and fast. That’s why wikis are
> > great and this is what we do everywhere in XWiki, including
> configurations
> > since all configs are stored inside wiki pages (XWikiPreferences,
> *Config,
> > etc). And we’re not going to change that now.
> >
>
> You missed something from those snips where I explained the way I saw this
> and what might cause some confusion:
>
> "IMO, the important part to distinguish the fact that the configuration
> part (for a regular, non-dev) is choosing *which* color theme to use, while
> the customization (i.e. coding, done by someone that understands CSS/LESS,
> in this case) part is editing/customizing your own version of a color
> theme."
>
> i.e. Themes are not configuration, but actual code.
>

That is actually sad. We already have the "Skin" concept as the "complex
stuff people are not supposed to touch". As opposed to this, I have always
seen the "Theme" as the "little stuff you can change easily to change some
color of the big skin". I agree that themes can now contain a bit of "less"
code. But if both Skin and Themes are seens as "complex stuff regular users
should not change (because it's code)", it's very sad for the
user-friendlyness, and it's probably time to make things better.

Copying a theme when someone wants to edit is indeed breaking the wiki
workflow and it's again something complex. I would prefer a simple button
in the theme to "revert colors to factory default".


>
>
> > It would be the first time we copy something before allowing changing it
> > and that’s not logical and not consistent.
> >
>
> The whole discussion is about not allowing to edit something, which is a
> first indeed, but we are moving in that direction, so of course there will
> be some changes to the way XWiki works.
>
>
> >
> > In addition we would make a bigger mess since not only users would be
> > directed to making copies of color themes pages but they would still be
> > able to make modifications to current color theme pages…
>
>
> > The more I think about it, the more I’m convinced that approach 2 is both
> > the simplest (and I agree that “less is more” :)) and the most logical.
> >
> > You mentioned upgrade being a problem but I don’t think this is correct
> > since approach 2 means that the color theme pages are “demo” pages
> meaning
> > that there will never be any upgrade conflict. When we do new XWiki cycle
> > versions, we will still be able to provide new color themes and since
> those
> > are new (like Iceberg this year) users will be able to switch to them
> > easily (there’s no upgrade issue either here).
> >
>
> Going again through the page types (specifically the "demo" one) and
> through the options, I agree that, at least of the Color Themes case,
> approach 2 should do the job. Of course, all of this being possible with
> the contract that we don't update color themes and we always publish new
> ones, of which I'm a bit skeptical.
>
> So +0.5 for approach 2.
>
> Thanks,
> Eduard
>
>
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Eduard
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 10:37 AM, Marius Dumitru Florea <
> > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 4:53 PM, Thomas Mortagne <
> > >> [hidden email]>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> So it seems that 2) is currently leading with Ecaterina and Vincent.
> > >>>
> > >>> Guillaume I'm not sure if you prefer 2) or 3) (i.e. what do you think
> > >>> about delete ?).
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>> Marius, does your proposal means you are more for 1) but with the
> > >>> difference that the default color theme would be allowed for edit ?
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> Yes, but I'm ok with 2)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>> Any other point of view input ?
> > >>>
> > >>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 1:50 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
> > >>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Thomas Mortagne <
> > >>> [hidden email]>
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 12:08 PM, Vincent Massol <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>> To give my opinion, I’m hesitating about 2 approaches:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Approach 1: “standard"
> > >>>>>> ==================
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> * We should have “Default Color Theme” be a copy from the Iceberg
> > >>> color
> > >>>>> theme page. I think I’d prefer the copy to be done at runtime; for
> > >>> example
> > >>>>> if the currently defined color theme page doesn’t exist when going
> to
> > >>> the
> > >>>>> L&F > Themes admin page, create it by copying Iceberg. This
> provides
> > a
> > >>> self
> > >>>>> healing feature if the color theme page has been removed/doesn’t
> > >>> exist/etc.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> * Predefined color theme pages should be considered “standard”
> and a
> > >>>>> warning message displayed if a user wants to edit them. BTW would
> be
> > >>> nice
> > >>>>> to have a feature to have a customized message per “type”. For
> > example
> > >>> for
> > >>>>> color theme pages we would display a message saying that the user
> > >> should
> > >>>>> copy the page to customize it instead of editing it.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> * The Color Theme UI should also be improved a bit to have a
> > >>> “Customize”
> > >>>>> button on color theme pages that would perform a copy to let the
> user
> > >>>>> customize a theme.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Approach 2: “demo"
> > >>>>>> ================
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> * Consider all color themes to be demo content and once the user
> > >>> starts
> > >>>>> modifying them don’t merge them anymore
> > >>>>>> * When we want to provide modified color themes, introduce new
> theme
> > >>>>> pages
> > >>>>>> * Don’t provide a “Default Color Theme” page. Directly set
> “Iceberg”
> > >>> to
> > >>>>> be the default CT.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Analysis
> > >>>>>> =======
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Approach 2 is more wiki style and simpler for sure. Users can use
> > >> the
> > >>>>> diff feature and the rollback feature if they want to go back to
> the
> > >>>>> original versions.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I think I’m leaning more towards 2 ATM.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> So you think delete is OK too, right ?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> For me delete is ok too. IMO we should provide just a few themes by
> > >>>> default, and the user should be able to uninstall and install what
> > >> themes
> > >>>> he wants (ideally he would be able to preview them live).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I don't like the copying part very much. Users like to have a base
> to
> > >>> start
> > >>>> from, but they also have history as a fallback.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Also we rarely make changes to ColorThemes, especially since they
> are
> > >> not
> > >>>> very complex since they should contain only variables. Still it all
> > >>> depends
> > >>>> on how well the Default Theme is tested initially.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thanks,
> > >>>> Caty
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Thanks
> > >>>>>> -Vincent
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On 25 Apr 2018, at 11:35, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Is this a VOTE or a proposal or a brainstorming? I’m asking since
> > >>>>> nobody has voted yet, not even Thomas (except if we consider that
> > >>> “prefer”
> > >>>>> means +1 and “OK” means +0 ;)).
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> From the answer it seems we might need a new VOTE since several
> new
> > >>>>> points have been added to the discussion. I’m not able to VOTE
> right
> > >>> now.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Thanks
> > >>>>>>> -Vincent
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> On 23 Apr 2018, at 12:29, Thomas Mortagne <
> > >>> [hidden email]>
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Hi xwikiers,
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Following new XAR entry type mail here is a question about color
> > >>>>>>>> themes we provide in standard XWiki (Cerulean, Charcoal, etc.).
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> 1) Standard stuff, if you want a custom color theme create a new
> > >> one
> > >>>>>>>> (would be nice to be able to copy a standard one and propose it
> > >> when
> > >>>>>>>> you try to edit a standard one).
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> 2) Demo content, edit and delete it all you want and upgrade
> won't
> > >>>>>>>> touch a customized theme to avoid surprises (background color
> > >>> changed
> > >>>>>>>> a bit in the standard version which now collide with your logo)
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> 3) Same as 2 but delete is bad (same as home page)
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> WDYT ?
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I'm think I prefer 1) but I'm OK with 3) if other think it's
> more
> > >>>>>>>> example than standard material. Let's say -0 for 2).
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>> Thomas Mortagne
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>> Thomas Mortagne
> > >>>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Thomas Mortagne
> > >>>
> > >>
> >
> >
>



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Guillaume Delhumeau ([hidden email])
Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
Committer on the XWiki.org project
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Re: [VOTE] Is it OK to edit a standard color theme

Thomas Mortagne
Administrator
So looks like 2) is the one getting the best upvote/downvote ratio so
"demo" it is then.

Thanks for your participation in this debate, if you enjoyed it there
is many more to comes I'm sure :)

On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 2:40 PM, Guillaume Delhumeau
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2018-04-26 14:13 GMT+02:00 Eduard Moraru <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Hi, Vincent,
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 12:54 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Edy,
>> >
>> > Thanks for your input, see below.
>> >
>> > > On 26 Apr 2018, at 11:42, Eduard Moraru <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Hi,
>> > >
>> > > I'm sorry, but nothing related to configuration inside pages looks very
>> > > "wiki-like" to me.
>> >
>> > [snip]
>> >
>> > > You should not need a developer
>> > > (possibly the original developer of the project/customizations) in
>> order
>> > to
>> > > make a really basic operation such as an upgrade. Maybe I'm saying
>> > > "sometimes less is more"? :)
>> >
>> > I’m just reacting to this part, hence the snipping :)
>> >
>> > For me approach 1 is both the complex approach by far and completely
>> > unwiki-like. The wiki way is to be able to make easy edits and be able to
>> > rollback, see diffs, etc. That’s natural and fast. That’s why wikis are
>> > great and this is what we do everywhere in XWiki, including
>> configurations
>> > since all configs are stored inside wiki pages (XWikiPreferences,
>> *Config,
>> > etc). And we’re not going to change that now.
>> >
>>
>> You missed something from those snips where I explained the way I saw this
>> and what might cause some confusion:
>>
>> "IMO, the important part to distinguish the fact that the configuration
>> part (for a regular, non-dev) is choosing *which* color theme to use, while
>> the customization (i.e. coding, done by someone that understands CSS/LESS,
>> in this case) part is editing/customizing your own version of a color
>> theme."
>>
>> i.e. Themes are not configuration, but actual code.
>>
>
> That is actually sad. We already have the "Skin" concept as the "complex
> stuff people are not supposed to touch". As opposed to this, I have always
> seen the "Theme" as the "little stuff you can change easily to change some
> color of the big skin". I agree that themes can now contain a bit of "less"
> code. But if both Skin and Themes are seens as "complex stuff regular users
> should not change (because it's code)", it's very sad for the
> user-friendlyness, and it's probably time to make things better.
>
> Copying a theme when someone wants to edit is indeed breaking the wiki
> workflow and it's again something complex. I would prefer a simple button
> in the theme to "revert colors to factory default".
>
>
>>
>>
>> > It would be the first time we copy something before allowing changing it
>> > and that’s not logical and not consistent.
>> >
>>
>> The whole discussion is about not allowing to edit something, which is a
>> first indeed, but we are moving in that direction, so of course there will
>> be some changes to the way XWiki works.
>>
>>
>> >
>> > In addition we would make a bigger mess since not only users would be
>> > directed to making copies of color themes pages but they would still be
>> > able to make modifications to current color theme pages…
>>
>>
>> > The more I think about it, the more I’m convinced that approach 2 is both
>> > the simplest (and I agree that “less is more” :)) and the most logical.
>> >
>> > You mentioned upgrade being a problem but I don’t think this is correct
>> > since approach 2 means that the color theme pages are “demo” pages
>> meaning
>> > that there will never be any upgrade conflict. When we do new XWiki cycle
>> > versions, we will still be able to provide new color themes and since
>> those
>> > are new (like Iceberg this year) users will be able to switch to them
>> > easily (there’s no upgrade issue either here).
>> >
>>
>> Going again through the page types (specifically the "demo" one) and
>> through the options, I agree that, at least of the Color Themes case,
>> approach 2 should do the job. Of course, all of this being possible with
>> the contract that we don't update color themes and we always publish new
>> ones, of which I'm a bit skeptical.
>>
>> So +0.5 for approach 2.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Eduard
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> > -Vincent
>> >
>> > > Thanks,
>> > > Eduard
>> > >
>> > > On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 10:37 AM, Marius Dumitru Florea <
>> > > [hidden email]> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 4:53 PM, Thomas Mortagne <
>> > >> [hidden email]>
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>> So it seems that 2) is currently leading with Ecaterina and Vincent.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Guillaume I'm not sure if you prefer 2) or 3) (i.e. what do you think
>> > >>> about delete ?).
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >>> Marius, does your proposal means you are more for 1) but with the
>> > >>> difference that the default color theme would be allowed for edit ?
>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >> Yes, but I'm ok with 2)
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Any other point of view input ?
>> > >>>
>> > >>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 1:50 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
>> > >>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > >>>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Thomas Mortagne <
>> > >>> [hidden email]>
>> > >>>> wrote:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 12:08 PM, Vincent Massol <
>> [hidden email]
>> > >
>> > >>>>> wrote:
>> > >>>>>> To give my opinion, I’m hesitating about 2 approaches:
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Approach 1: “standard"
>> > >>>>>> ==================
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> * We should have “Default Color Theme” be a copy from the Iceberg
>> > >>> color
>> > >>>>> theme page. I think I’d prefer the copy to be done at runtime; for
>> > >>> example
>> > >>>>> if the currently defined color theme page doesn’t exist when going
>> to
>> > >>> the
>> > >>>>> L&F > Themes admin page, create it by copying Iceberg. This
>> provides
>> > a
>> > >>> self
>> > >>>>> healing feature if the color theme page has been removed/doesn’t
>> > >>> exist/etc.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> * Predefined color theme pages should be considered “standard”
>> and a
>> > >>>>> warning message displayed if a user wants to edit them. BTW would
>> be
>> > >>> nice
>> > >>>>> to have a feature to have a customized message per “type”. For
>> > example
>> > >>> for
>> > >>>>> color theme pages we would display a message saying that the user
>> > >> should
>> > >>>>> copy the page to customize it instead of editing it.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> * The Color Theme UI should also be improved a bit to have a
>> > >>> “Customize”
>> > >>>>> button on color theme pages that would perform a copy to let the
>> user
>> > >>>>> customize a theme.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Approach 2: “demo"
>> > >>>>>> ================
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> * Consider all color themes to be demo content and once the user
>> > >>> starts
>> > >>>>> modifying them don’t merge them anymore
>> > >>>>>> * When we want to provide modified color themes, introduce new
>> theme
>> > >>>>> pages
>> > >>>>>> * Don’t provide a “Default Color Theme” page. Directly set
>> “Iceberg”
>> > >>> to
>> > >>>>> be the default CT.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Analysis
>> > >>>>>> =======
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Approach 2 is more wiki style and simpler for sure. Users can use
>> > >> the
>> > >>>>> diff feature and the rollback feature if they want to go back to
>> the
>> > >>>>> original versions.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> I think I’m leaning more towards 2 ATM.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> So you think delete is OK too, right ?
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> For me delete is ok too. IMO we should provide just a few themes by
>> > >>>> default, and the user should be able to uninstall and install what
>> > >> themes
>> > >>>> he wants (ideally he would be able to preview them live).
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> I don't like the copying part very much. Users like to have a base
>> to
>> > >>> start
>> > >>>> from, but they also have history as a fallback.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Also we rarely make changes to ColorThemes, especially since they
>> are
>> > >> not
>> > >>>> very complex since they should contain only variables. Still it all
>> > >>> depends
>> > >>>> on how well the Default Theme is tested initially.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Thanks,
>> > >>>> Caty
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Thanks
>> > >>>>>> -Vincent
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> On 25 Apr 2018, at 11:35, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> Is this a VOTE or a proposal or a brainstorming? I’m asking since
>> > >>>>> nobody has voted yet, not even Thomas (except if we consider that
>> > >>> “prefer”
>> > >>>>> means +1 and “OK” means +0 ;)).
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> From the answer it seems we might need a new VOTE since several
>> new
>> > >>>>> points have been added to the discussion. I’m not able to VOTE
>> right
>> > >>> now.
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> Thanks
>> > >>>>>>> -Vincent
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> On 23 Apr 2018, at 12:29, Thomas Mortagne <
>> > >>> [hidden email]>
>> > >>>>> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> Hi xwikiers,
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> Following new XAR entry type mail here is a question about color
>> > >>>>>>>> themes we provide in standard XWiki (Cerulean, Charcoal, etc.).
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> 1) Standard stuff, if you want a custom color theme create a new
>> > >> one
>> > >>>>>>>> (would be nice to be able to copy a standard one and propose it
>> > >> when
>> > >>>>>>>> you try to edit a standard one).
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> 2) Demo content, edit and delete it all you want and upgrade
>> won't
>> > >>>>>>>> touch a customized theme to avoid surprises (background color
>> > >>> changed
>> > >>>>>>>> a bit in the standard version which now collide with your logo)
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> 3) Same as 2 but delete is bad (same as home page)
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> WDYT ?
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> I'm think I prefer 1) but I'm OK with 3) if other think it's
>> more
>> > >>>>>>>> example than standard material. Let's say -0 for 2).
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> Thanks,
>> > >>>>>>>> --
>> > >>>>>>>> Thomas Mortagne
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> --
>> > >>>>> Thomas Mortagne
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> --
>> > >>> Thomas Mortagne
>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Guillaume Delhumeau ([hidden email])
> Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
> Committer on the XWiki.org project



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Thomas Mortagne
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