[VOTE] Stop supporting XWiki Manager

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[VOTE] Stop supporting XWiki Manager

Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau
Since Enterprise embeds Workspaces by default since 5.2-m2, I think it does
not make any sense to release XWiki Manager (XEM) anymore.

The build is currently broken (because of the XAR organization changes).

So I propose to remove XWiki Manager:
- stop releasing it
- move the github repo to xwiki-contrib/retired
- update manager.xwiki.org to explain the changes in XWiki 5.2.
- move the manager jira to the retired category
- remove the build in ci.xwiki.org

Here is my non-binding +1.

LM
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Re: [VOTE] Stop supporting XWiki Manager

vmassol
Administrator

On Sep 11, 2013, at 11:58 AM, "Guillaume \"Louis-Marie\" Delhumeau" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Since Enterprise embeds Workspaces by default since 5.2-m2, I think it does
> not make any sense to release XWiki Manager (XEM) anymore.
>
> The build is currently broken (because of the XAR organization changes).
>
> So I propose to remove XWiki Manager:
> - stop releasing it
> - move the github repo to xwiki-contrib/retired
> - update manager.xwiki.org to explain the changes in XWiki 5.2.
> - move the manager jira to the retired category
> - remove the build in ci.xwiki.org
>
> Here is my non-binding +1.

+1, we should do this ASAP since the 5.2M2 release is starting real soon and we should not distribute XEM in 5.2M2.

Thanks
-Vincent

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Re: [VOTE] Stop supporting XWiki Manager

Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau
Note (because Sorin asked an interesting question on IRC):

The old use-case of creating subwikis (not workspaces) in a farm is still
possible by installing manually the Wiki Manager UI through the Extensions
Manager.

This is still a temporary solution, because in 5.3, we will really merge
wiki-manager with workspace-manager and add the "Users Isolation" option
when you create a wiki.


2013/9/11 Vincent Massol <[hidden email]>

>
> On Sep 11, 2013, at 11:58 AM, "Guillaume \"Louis-Marie\" Delhumeau" <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Since Enterprise embeds Workspaces by default since 5.2-m2, I think it
> does
> > not make any sense to release XWiki Manager (XEM) anymore.
> >
> > The build is currently broken (because of the XAR organization changes).
> >
> > So I propose to remove XWiki Manager:
> > - stop releasing it
> > - move the github repo to xwiki-contrib/retired
> > - update manager.xwiki.org to explain the changes in XWiki 5.2.
> > - move the manager jira to the retired category
> > - remove the build in ci.xwiki.org
> >
> > Here is my non-binding +1.
>
> +1, we should do this ASAP since the 5.2M2 release is starting real soon
> and we should not distribute XEM in 5.2M2.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: [VOTE] Stop supporting XWiki Manager

Thomas Mortagne
Administrator
In reply to this post by Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau
+1

On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Since Enterprise embeds Workspaces by default since 5.2-m2, I think it does
> not make any sense to release XWiki Manager (XEM) anymore.
>
> The build is currently broken (because of the XAR organization changes).
>
> So I propose to remove XWiki Manager:
> - stop releasing it
> - move the github repo to xwiki-contrib/retired
> - update manager.xwiki.org to explain the changes in XWiki 5.2.
> - move the manager jira to the retired category
> - remove the build in ci.xwiki.org
>
> Here is my non-binding +1.
>
> LM
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs



--
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Re: [VOTE] Stop supporting XWiki Manager

Denis Gervalle-2
+1


On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 1:54 PM, Thomas Mortagne
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> +1
>
> On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Since Enterprise embeds Workspaces by default since 5.2-m2, I think it
> does
> > not make any sense to release XWiki Manager (XEM) anymore.
> >
> > The build is currently broken (because of the XAR organization changes).
> >
> > So I propose to remove XWiki Manager:
> > - stop releasing it
> > - move the github repo to xwiki-contrib/retired
> > - update manager.xwiki.org to explain the changes in XWiki 5.2.
> > - move the manager jira to the retired category
> > - remove the build in ci.xwiki.org
> >
> > Here is my non-binding +1.
> >
> > LM
> > _______________________________________________
> > devs mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
>
>
> --
> Thomas Mortagne
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>



--
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SOFTEC sa - CEO
eGuilde sarl - CTO
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Re: [VOTE] Stop supporting XWiki Manager

Fabio Mancinelli-4
In reply to this post by Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau
+1

Thanks,
Fabio

On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Since Enterprise embeds Workspaces by default since 5.2-m2, I think it does
> not make any sense to release XWiki Manager (XEM) anymore.
>
> The build is currently broken (because of the XAR organization changes).
>
> So I propose to remove XWiki Manager:
> - stop releasing it
> - move the github repo to xwiki-contrib/retired
> - update manager.xwiki.org to explain the changes in XWiki 5.2.
> - move the manager jira to the retired category
> - remove the build in ci.xwiki.org
>
> Here is my non-binding +1.
>
> LM
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
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Re: [VOTE] Stop supporting XWiki Manager

sorinello
+1, only thing I want to mention here is that we'll have to change the
documentation from XWiki.org and also maybe on the RN we should put
something more visible.


On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Fabio Mancinelli <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> +1
>
> Thanks,
> Fabio
>
> On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Since Enterprise embeds Workspaces by default since 5.2-m2, I think it
> does
> > not make any sense to release XWiki Manager (XEM) anymore.
> >
> > The build is currently broken (because of the XAR organization changes).
> >
> > So I propose to remove XWiki Manager:
> > - stop releasing it
> > - move the github repo to xwiki-contrib/retired
> > - update manager.xwiki.org to explain the changes in XWiki 5.2.
> > - move the manager jira to the retired category
> > - remove the build in ci.xwiki.org
> >
> > Here is my non-binding +1.
> >
> > LM
> > _______________________________________________
> > devs mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: [VOTE] Stop supporting XWiki Manager

Marius Dumitru Florea
In reply to this post by Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau
+1

Thanks,
Marius

On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 12:58 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Since Enterprise embeds Workspaces by default since 5.2-m2, I think it does
> not make any sense to release XWiki Manager (XEM) anymore.
>
> The build is currently broken (because of the XAR organization changes).
>
> So I propose to remove XWiki Manager:
> - stop releasing it
> - move the github repo to xwiki-contrib/retired
> - update manager.xwiki.org to explain the changes in XWiki 5.2.
> - move the manager jira to the retired category
> - remove the build in ci.xwiki.org
>
> Here is my non-binding +1.
>
> LM
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
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Re: [VOTE] Stop supporting XWiki Manager

Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
+1

Thanks,
Caty


On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> +1
>
> Thanks,
> Marius
>
> On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 12:58 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Since Enterprise embeds Workspaces by default since 5.2-m2, I think it
> does
> > not make any sense to release XWiki Manager (XEM) anymore.
> >
> > The build is currently broken (because of the XAR organization changes).
> >
> > So I propose to remove XWiki Manager:
> > - stop releasing it
> > - move the github repo to xwiki-contrib/retired
> > - update manager.xwiki.org to explain the changes in XWiki 5.2.
> > - move the manager jira to the retired category
> > - remove the build in ci.xwiki.org
> >
> > Here is my non-binding +1.
> >
> > LM
> > _______________________________________________
> > devs mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: [VOTE] Stop supporting XWiki Manager

Sergiu Dumitriu-2
In reply to this post by Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau
On 09/11/2013 05:58 AM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau wrote:

> Since Enterprise embeds Workspaces by default since 5.2-m2, I think it does
> not make any sense to release XWiki Manager (XEM) anymore.
>
> The build is currently broken (because of the XAR organization changes).
>
> So I propose to remove XWiki Manager:
> - stop releasing it
> - move the github repo to xwiki-contrib/retired
> - update manager.xwiki.org to explain the changes in XWiki 5.2.
> - move the manager jira to the retired category
> - remove the build in ci.xwiki.org
>
> Here is my non-binding +1.
>
> LM

-1. This is very premature, the new workspaces haven't been available
for a long enough time to be sure it is a good replacement for XEM.

Do workspaces fulfill all the needs of existing XEM users?

Does the new implementation offer support for the Farm usage?

Is there a clear migration path? Manual or automatic?

Is the new wiki management UI going to be at least as easy to use as the
old one? What's the learning curve for administrators?


If the build is broken, it's easier to fix it than to upset a large
userbase. Why do we insist so much on maintaining backwards
compatibility for Java APIs that we're almost certain nobody uses, yet
we're OK with dropping an entire product without a proven alternative,
hoping that in one or two more releases that alternative will actually
be fully implemented?
--
Sergiu Dumitriu
http://purl.org/net/sergiu
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Re: [VOTE] Stop supporting XWiki Manager

vmassol
Administrator
Hi Sergiu,

On Sep 12, 2013, at 5:11 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 09/11/2013 05:58 AM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau wrote:
>> Since Enterprise embeds Workspaces by default since 5.2-m2, I think it does
>> not make any sense to release XWiki Manager (XEM) anymore.
>>
>> The build is currently broken (because of the XAR organization changes).
>>
>> So I propose to remove XWiki Manager:
>> - stop releasing it
>> - move the github repo to xwiki-contrib/retired
>> - update manager.xwiki.org to explain the changes in XWiki 5.2.
>> - move the manager jira to the retired category
>> - remove the build in ci.xwiki.org
>>
>> Here is my non-binding +1.
>>
>> LM
>
> -1. This is very premature, the new workspaces haven't been available
> for a long enough time to be sure it is a good replacement for XEM.

We will never be able to support XEM as it was since we've modified workspaces (we didn't add a new module ;)).

Also, since XEM has always been a packaging only it's not a bit deal. You could always install the XEM feature on an XE.

> Do workspaces fulfill all the needs of existing XEM users?

yes it's the same thing...

> Does the new implementation offer support for the Farm usage?

same as XEM but the UI module is not installed (it was installed in XEM but hidden). We could add it but it's a bad idea since it's misleading. The better solution is what we plan for 5.3 which is to merge the 2 notions.

> Is there a clear migration path? Manual or automatic?

automatic, there's a jira issue for making it work in 5.2.

> Is the new wiki management UI going to be at least as easy to use as the
> old one? What's the learning curve for administrators?

it's the same one…

> If the build is broken, it's easier to fix it than to upset a large
> userbase.

No. Again, we modified workspaces so even if continue providing the XEM packaging the changes will be there and if we upset users in XE we will upset them in XEM...

> Why do we insist so much on maintaining backwards
> compatibility for Java APIs that we're almost certain nobody uses, yet
> we're OK with dropping an entire product without a proven alternative,
> hoping that in one or two more releases that alternative will actually
> be fully implemented?

See above.

Thanks
-Vincent

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Re: [VOTE] Stop supporting XWiki Manager

Sergiu Dumitriu-2
On 09/12/2013 11:29 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:

> Hi Sergiu,
>
> On Sep 12, 2013, at 5:11 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 09/11/2013 05:58 AM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau wrote:
>>> Since Enterprise embeds Workspaces by default since 5.2-m2, I think it does
>>> not make any sense to release XWiki Manager (XEM) anymore.
>>>
>>> The build is currently broken (because of the XAR organization changes).
>>>
>>> So I propose to remove XWiki Manager:
>>> - stop releasing it
>>> - move the github repo to xwiki-contrib/retired
>>> - update manager.xwiki.org to explain the changes in XWiki 5.2.
>>> - move the manager jira to the retired category
>>> - remove the build in ci.xwiki.org
>>>
>>> Here is my non-binding +1.
>>>
>>> LM
>>
>> -1. This is very premature, the new workspaces haven't been available
>> for a long enough time to be sure it is a good replacement for XEM.
>
> We will never be able to support XEM as it was since we've modified workspaces (we didn't add a new module ;)).

There once was a thing called wiki-manager, and XEM was using it. Is
this no longer true, or why do you say that "workspaces" has changed?

> Also, since XEM has always been a packaging only it's not a bit deal. You could always install the XEM feature on an XE.
>
>> Do workspaces fulfill all the needs of existing XEM users?
>
> yes it's the same thing...
>
>> Does the new implementation offer support for the Farm usage?
>
> same as XEM but the UI module is not installed (it was installed in XEM but hidden). We could add it but it's a bad idea since it's misleading. The better solution is what we plan for 5.3 which is to merge the 2 notions.
>
>> Is there a clear migration path? Manual or automatic?
>
> automatic, there's a jira issue for making it work in 5.2.
>
>> Is the new wiki management UI going to be at least as easy to use as the
>> old one? What's the learning curve for administrators?
>
> it's the same one…

I don't get it... Things are different, yet they're the same? I've seen
a lot of UI changes, name changes, functionality changes, yet nothing
actually changed since XEM is Workspaces?

Maybe we're talking about different things. I'm not asking if Workspaces
packaged as XEM has the same functionality as XEM, I'm asking if the old
multiwiki farm manager that has been available in 2.x, 3.x, 4.x and is
still used on MyXWiki will still be available.

>> If the build is broken, it's easier to fix it than to upset a large
>> userbase.
>
> No. Again, we modified workspaces so even if continue providing the XEM packaging the changes will be there and if we upset users in XE we will upset them in XEM...
>
>> Why do we insist so much on maintaining backwards
>> compatibility for Java APIs that we're almost certain nobody uses, yet
>> we're OK with dropping an entire product without a proven alternative,
>> hoping that in one or two more releases that alternative will actually
>> be fully implemented?
>
> See above.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>


--
Sergiu Dumitriu
http://purl.org/net/sergiu
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Re: [VOTE] Stop supporting XWiki Manager

vmassol
Administrator

On Sep 12, 2013, at 6:02 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 09/12/2013 11:29 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
>> Hi Sergiu,
>>
>> On Sep 12, 2013, at 5:11 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 09/11/2013 05:58 AM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau wrote:
>>>> Since Enterprise embeds Workspaces by default since 5.2-m2, I think it does
>>>> not make any sense to release XWiki Manager (XEM) anymore.
>>>>
>>>> The build is currently broken (because of the XAR organization changes).
>>>>
>>>> So I propose to remove XWiki Manager:
>>>> - stop releasing it
>>>> - move the github repo to xwiki-contrib/retired
>>>> - update manager.xwiki.org to explain the changes in XWiki 5.2.
>>>> - move the manager jira to the retired category
>>>> - remove the build in ci.xwiki.org
>>>>
>>>> Here is my non-binding +1.
>>>>
>>>> LM
>>>
>>> -1. This is very premature, the new workspaces haven't been available
>>> for a long enough time to be sure it is a good replacement for XEM.
>>
>> We will never be able to support XEM as it was since we've modified workspaces (we didn't add a new module ;)).
>
> There once was a thing called wiki-manager, and XEM was using it. Is
> this no longer true, or why do you say that "workspaces" has changed?

It still exists and is made of 2 modules: an API and a UI. the API bundled by default as was the case in XEM. The UI one is not bundled by default in XE.

>> Also, since XEM has always been a packaging only it's not a bit deal. You could always install the XEM feature on an XE.
>>
>>> Do workspaces fulfill all the needs of existing XEM users?
>>
>> yes it's the same thing...
>>
>>> Does the new implementation offer support for the Farm usage?
>>
>> same as XEM but the UI module is not installed (it was installed in XEM but hidden). We could add it but it's a bad idea since it's misleading. The better solution is what we plan for 5.3 which is to merge the 2 notions.
>>
>>> Is there a clear migration path? Manual or automatic?
>>
>> automatic, there's a jira issue for making it work in 5.2.
>>
>>> Is the new wiki management UI going to be at least as easy to use as the
>>> old one? What's the learning curve for administrators?
>>
>> it's the same one…
>
> I don't get it... Things are different, yet they're the same? I've seen
> a lot of UI changes, name changes, functionality changes, yet nothing
> actually changed since XEM is Workspaces?

The platform-workspaces module has changed. This module was bundled in XEM. Now it's bundled in XE too.

> Maybe we're talking about different things. I'm not asking if Workspaces
> packaged as XEM has the same functionality as XEM, I'm asking if the old
> multiwiki farm manager that has been available in 2.x, 3.x, 4.x and is
> still used on MyXWiki will still be available.

Yes it's there and not touched at all (it's wiki-manager-api and wiki-manager-ui FTR).

Thanks
-Vincent

>>> If the build is broken, it's easier to fix it than to upset a large
>>> userbase.
>>
>> No. Again, we modified workspaces so even if continue providing the XEM packaging the changes will be there and if we upset users in XE we will upset them in XEM...
>>
>>> Why do we insist so much on maintaining backwards
>>> compatibility for Java APIs that we're almost certain nobody uses, yet
>>> we're OK with dropping an entire product without a proven alternative,
>>> hoping that in one or two more releases that alternative will actually
>>> be fully implemented?
>>
>> See above.
>>
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent
>>
>
>
> --
> Sergiu Dumitriu
> http://purl.org/net/sergiu
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

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Re: [VOTE] Stop supporting XWiki Manager

Thomas Mortagne
Administrator
In reply to this post by Sergiu Dumitriu-2
On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 09/11/2013 05:58 AM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau wrote:
>> Since Enterprise embeds Workspaces by default since 5.2-m2, I think it does
>> not make any sense to release XWiki Manager (XEM) anymore.
>>
>> The build is currently broken (because of the XAR organization changes).
>>
>> So I propose to remove XWiki Manager:
>> - stop releasing it
>> - move the github repo to xwiki-contrib/retired
>> - update manager.xwiki.org to explain the changes in XWiki 5.2.
>> - move the manager jira to the retired category
>> - remove the build in ci.xwiki.org
>>
>> Here is my non-binding +1.
>>
>> LM
>
> -1. This is very premature, the new workspaces haven't been available
> for a long enough time to be sure it is a good replacement for XEM.
>
> Do workspaces fulfill all the needs of existing XEM users?

XEM became a workspaces manager in 3.3 (see
http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XEM-202) so there is nothing new here.
The only difference between the new XE and XEM is that wiki manager UI
is not included while it was hidden in XEM so it's not a big change
for users since it's super easy to install with Extension Manager.

XEM is and always been pretty much only a set of pom.xml files with
dependencies and not much more than a home page. Guillaume moved
Workspaces from XEM to XE making XEM pretty much useless now.

>
> Does the new implementation offer support for the Farm usage?

You can install Wiki Manager UI using Extension Manager.

>
> Is there a clear migration path? Manual or automatic?
>
> Is the new wiki management UI going to be at least as easy to use as the
> old one? What's the learning curve for administrators?
>
>
> If the build is broken, it's easier to fix it than to upset a large
> userbase. Why do we insist so much on maintaining backwards
> compatibility for Java APIs that we're almost certain nobody uses, yet
> we're OK with dropping an entire product without a proven alternative,
> hoping that in one or two more releases that alternative will actually
> be fully implemented?

The point here is that the alternative is XE. We don't remove XEM
because the build is broken... It simply does not worth the effort to
keep it anymore since XE expose the same features.

> --
> Sergiu Dumitriu
> http://purl.org/net/sergiu
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs



--
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Re: [VOTE] Stop supporting XWiki Manager

Sergiu Dumitriu-2
On 09/13/2013 08:51 AM, Thomas Mortagne wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 09/11/2013 05:58 AM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau wrote:
>>> Since Enterprise embeds Workspaces by default since 5.2-m2, I think it does
>>> not make any sense to release XWiki Manager (XEM) anymore.
>>>
>>> The build is currently broken (because of the XAR organization changes).
>>>
>>> So I propose to remove XWiki Manager:
>>> - stop releasing it
>>> - move the github repo to xwiki-contrib/retired
>>> - update manager.xwiki.org to explain the changes in XWiki 5.2.
>>> - move the manager jira to the retired category
>>> - remove the build in ci.xwiki.org
>>>
>>> Here is my non-binding +1.
>>>
>>> LM
>>
>> -1. This is very premature, the new workspaces haven't been available
>> for a long enough time to be sure it is a good replacement for XEM.
>>
>> Do workspaces fulfill all the needs of existing XEM users?
>
> XEM became a workspaces manager in 3.3 (see
> http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XEM-202) so there is nothing new here.
> The only difference between the new XE and XEM is that wiki manager UI
> is not included while it was hidden in XEM so it's not a big change
> for users since it's super easy to install with Extension Manager.
>
> XEM is and always been pretty much only a set of pom.xml files with
> dependencies and not much more than a home page. Guillaume moved
> Workspaces from XEM to XE making XEM pretty much useless now.
>
>>
>> Does the new implementation offer support for the Farm usage?
>
> You can install Wiki Manager UI using Extension Manager.
>
>>
>> Is there a clear migration path? Manual or automatic?
>>
>> Is the new wiki management UI going to be at least as easy to use as the
>> old one? What's the learning curve for administrators?
>>
>>
>> If the build is broken, it's easier to fix it than to upset a large
>> userbase. Why do we insist so much on maintaining backwards
>> compatibility for Java APIs that we're almost certain nobody uses, yet
>> we're OK with dropping an entire product without a proven alternative,
>> hoping that in one or two more releases that alternative will actually
>> be fully implemented?
>
> The point here is that the alternative is XE. We don't remove XEM
> because the build is broken... It simply does not worth the effort to
> keep it anymore since XE expose the same features.

Given that as a downstream user I don't really use multiwikis in any
way, this doesn't affect me at all. So +1, less code is always better.
One product less means less confusion for users.

My main complaint was about the backwards compatibility rule that's not
being followed.
--
Sergiu Dumitriu
http://purl.org/net/sergiu
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
[hidden email]
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Re: [VOTE] Stop supporting XWiki Manager

Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau
Almost everybody has voted so I think this proposal is approved.



2013/9/13 Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]>

> On 09/13/2013 08:51 AM, Thomas Mortagne wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >> On 09/11/2013 05:58 AM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau wrote:
> >>> Since Enterprise embeds Workspaces by default since 5.2-m2, I think it
> does
> >>> not make any sense to release XWiki Manager (XEM) anymore.
> >>>
> >>> The build is currently broken (because of the XAR organization
> changes).
> >>>
> >>> So I propose to remove XWiki Manager:
> >>> - stop releasing it
> >>> - move the github repo to xwiki-contrib/retired
> >>> - update manager.xwiki.org to explain the changes in XWiki 5.2.
> >>> - move the manager jira to the retired category
> >>> - remove the build in ci.xwiki.org
> >>>
> >>> Here is my non-binding +1.
> >>>
> >>> LM
> >>
> >> -1. This is very premature, the new workspaces haven't been available
> >> for a long enough time to be sure it is a good replacement for XEM.
> >>
> >> Do workspaces fulfill all the needs of existing XEM users?
> >
> > XEM became a workspaces manager in 3.3 (see
> > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XEM-202) so there is nothing new here.
> > The only difference between the new XE and XEM is that wiki manager UI
> > is not included while it was hidden in XEM so it's not a big change
> > for users since it's super easy to install with Extension Manager.
> >
> > XEM is and always been pretty much only a set of pom.xml files with
> > dependencies and not much more than a home page. Guillaume moved
> > Workspaces from XEM to XE making XEM pretty much useless now.
> >
> >>
> >> Does the new implementation offer support for the Farm usage?
> >
> > You can install Wiki Manager UI using Extension Manager.
> >
> >>
> >> Is there a clear migration path? Manual or automatic?
> >>
> >> Is the new wiki management UI going to be at least as easy to use as the
> >> old one? What's the learning curve for administrators?
> >>
> >>
> >> If the build is broken, it's easier to fix it than to upset a large
> >> userbase. Why do we insist so much on maintaining backwards
> >> compatibility for Java APIs that we're almost certain nobody uses, yet
> >> we're OK with dropping an entire product without a proven alternative,
> >> hoping that in one or two more releases that alternative will actually
> >> be fully implemented?
> >
> > The point here is that the alternative is XE. We don't remove XEM
> > because the build is broken... It simply does not worth the effort to
> > keep it anymore since XE expose the same features.
>
> Given that as a downstream user I don't really use multiwikis in any
> way, this doesn't affect me at all. So +1, less code is always better.
> One product less means less confusion for users.
>
> My main complaint was about the backwards compatibility rule that's not
> being followed.
> --
> Sergiu Dumitriu
> http://purl.org/net/sergiu
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
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Re: [VOTE] Stop supporting XWiki Manager

Eduard Moraru
+1

Thanks,
Eduard


On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 4:35 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Almost everybody has voted so I think this proposal is approved.
>
>
>
> 2013/9/13 Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]>
>
> > On 09/13/2013 08:51 AM, Thomas Mortagne wrote:
> > > On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >> On 09/11/2013 05:58 AM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau wrote:
> > >>> Since Enterprise embeds Workspaces by default since 5.2-m2, I think
> it
> > does
> > >>> not make any sense to release XWiki Manager (XEM) anymore.
> > >>>
> > >>> The build is currently broken (because of the XAR organization
> > changes).
> > >>>
> > >>> So I propose to remove XWiki Manager:
> > >>> - stop releasing it
> > >>> - move the github repo to xwiki-contrib/retired
> > >>> - update manager.xwiki.org to explain the changes in XWiki 5.2.
> > >>> - move the manager jira to the retired category
> > >>> - remove the build in ci.xwiki.org
> > >>>
> > >>> Here is my non-binding +1.
> > >>>
> > >>> LM
> > >>
> > >> -1. This is very premature, the new workspaces haven't been available
> > >> for a long enough time to be sure it is a good replacement for XEM.
> > >>
> > >> Do workspaces fulfill all the needs of existing XEM users?
> > >
> > > XEM became a workspaces manager in 3.3 (see
> > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XEM-202) so there is nothing new here.
> > > The only difference between the new XE and XEM is that wiki manager UI
> > > is not included while it was hidden in XEM so it's not a big change
> > > for users since it's super easy to install with Extension Manager.
> > >
> > > XEM is and always been pretty much only a set of pom.xml files with
> > > dependencies and not much more than a home page. Guillaume moved
> > > Workspaces from XEM to XE making XEM pretty much useless now.
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Does the new implementation offer support for the Farm usage?
> > >
> > > You can install Wiki Manager UI using Extension Manager.
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Is there a clear migration path? Manual or automatic?
> > >>
> > >> Is the new wiki management UI going to be at least as easy to use as
> the
> > >> old one? What's the learning curve for administrators?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> If the build is broken, it's easier to fix it than to upset a large
> > >> userbase. Why do we insist so much on maintaining backwards
> > >> compatibility for Java APIs that we're almost certain nobody uses, yet
> > >> we're OK with dropping an entire product without a proven alternative,
> > >> hoping that in one or two more releases that alternative will actually
> > >> be fully implemented?
> > >
> > > The point here is that the alternative is XE. We don't remove XEM
> > > because the build is broken... It simply does not worth the effort to
> > > keep it anymore since XE expose the same features.
> >
> > Given that as a downstream user I don't really use multiwikis in any
> > way, this doesn't affect me at all. So +1, less code is always better.
> > One product less means less confusion for users.
> >
> > My main complaint was about the backwards compatibility rule that's not
> > being followed.
> > --
> > Sergiu Dumitriu
> > http://purl.org/net/sergiu
> > _______________________________________________
> > devs mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [VOTE] Stop supporting XWiki Manager

Thomas Mortagne
Administrator
> - move the github repo to xwiki-contrib/retired

I guess you mean "move the github repo to xwiki-contrib" because
merging XEM and retired repository would be a pain (a not even sure it
would work fully). I prefer to just move the repo to contrib and
indicate it's retired like we did for other modules.

On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 4:32 PM, Eduard Moraru <[hidden email]> wrote:

> +1
>
> Thanks,
> Eduard
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 4:35 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Almost everybody has voted so I think this proposal is approved.
>>
>>
>>
>> 2013/9/13 Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]>
>>
>> > On 09/13/2013 08:51 AM, Thomas Mortagne wrote:
>> > > On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> > >> On 09/11/2013 05:58 AM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau wrote:
>> > >>> Since Enterprise embeds Workspaces by default since 5.2-m2, I think
>> it
>> > does
>> > >>> not make any sense to release XWiki Manager (XEM) anymore.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> The build is currently broken (because of the XAR organization
>> > changes).
>> > >>>
>> > >>> So I propose to remove XWiki Manager:
>> > >>> - stop releasing it
>> > >>> - move the github repo to xwiki-contrib/retired
>> > >>> - update manager.xwiki.org to explain the changes in XWiki 5.2.
>> > >>> - move the manager jira to the retired category
>> > >>> - remove the build in ci.xwiki.org
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Here is my non-binding +1.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> LM
>> > >>
>> > >> -1. This is very premature, the new workspaces haven't been available
>> > >> for a long enough time to be sure it is a good replacement for XEM.
>> > >>
>> > >> Do workspaces fulfill all the needs of existing XEM users?
>> > >
>> > > XEM became a workspaces manager in 3.3 (see
>> > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XEM-202) so there is nothing new here.
>> > > The only difference between the new XE and XEM is that wiki manager UI
>> > > is not included while it was hidden in XEM so it's not a big change
>> > > for users since it's super easy to install with Extension Manager.
>> > >
>> > > XEM is and always been pretty much only a set of pom.xml files with
>> > > dependencies and not much more than a home page. Guillaume moved
>> > > Workspaces from XEM to XE making XEM pretty much useless now.
>> > >
>> > >>
>> > >> Does the new implementation offer support for the Farm usage?
>> > >
>> > > You can install Wiki Manager UI using Extension Manager.
>> > >
>> > >>
>> > >> Is there a clear migration path? Manual or automatic?
>> > >>
>> > >> Is the new wiki management UI going to be at least as easy to use as
>> the
>> > >> old one? What's the learning curve for administrators?
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> If the build is broken, it's easier to fix it than to upset a large
>> > >> userbase. Why do we insist so much on maintaining backwards
>> > >> compatibility for Java APIs that we're almost certain nobody uses, yet
>> > >> we're OK with dropping an entire product without a proven alternative,
>> > >> hoping that in one or two more releases that alternative will actually
>> > >> be fully implemented?
>> > >
>> > > The point here is that the alternative is XE. We don't remove XEM
>> > > because the build is broken... It simply does not worth the effort to
>> > > keep it anymore since XE expose the same features.
>> >
>> > Given that as a downstream user I don't really use multiwikis in any
>> > way, this doesn't affect me at all. So +1, less code is always better.
>> > One product less means less confusion for users.
>> >
>> > My main complaint was about the backwards compatibility rule that's not
>> > being followed.
>> > --
>> > Sergiu Dumitriu
>> > http://purl.org/net/sergiu
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > devs mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> devs mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>>
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs



--
Thomas Mortagne
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Re: [VOTE] Stop supporting XWiki Manager

vmassol
Administrator

On Sep 19, 2013, at 4:58 PM, Thomas Mortagne <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> - move the github repo to xwiki-contrib/retired
>
> I guess you mean "move the github repo to xwiki-contrib" because
> merging XEM and retired repository would be a pain (a not even sure it
> would work fully). I prefer to just move the repo to contrib and
> indicate it's retired like we did for other modules.

Yes I agree. We'll just need a README.md to let the users know it's not active anymore.

We need to decide on a rule for retired project (not sure we agreed although we discussed it). I also much prefer keeping each extension in its own repo and mention in a README.md about its status.

Thanks
-Vincent

> On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 4:32 PM, Eduard Moraru <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> +1
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Eduard
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 4:35 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Almost everybody has voted so I think this proposal is approved.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/9/13 Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]>
>>>
>>>> On 09/13/2013 08:51 AM, Thomas Mortagne wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On 09/11/2013 05:58 AM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau wrote:
>>>>>>> Since Enterprise embeds Workspaces by default since 5.2-m2, I think
>>> it
>>>> does
>>>>>>> not make any sense to release XWiki Manager (XEM) anymore.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The build is currently broken (because of the XAR organization
>>>> changes).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So I propose to remove XWiki Manager:
>>>>>>> - stop releasing it
>>>>>>> - move the github repo to xwiki-contrib/retired
>>>>>>> - update manager.xwiki.org to explain the changes in XWiki 5.2.
>>>>>>> - move the manager jira to the retired category
>>>>>>> - remove the build in ci.xwiki.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here is my non-binding +1.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> LM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -1. This is very premature, the new workspaces haven't been available
>>>>>> for a long enough time to be sure it is a good replacement for XEM.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do workspaces fulfill all the needs of existing XEM users?
>>>>>
>>>>> XEM became a workspaces manager in 3.3 (see
>>>>> http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XEM-202) so there is nothing new here.
>>>>> The only difference between the new XE and XEM is that wiki manager UI
>>>>> is not included while it was hidden in XEM so it's not a big change
>>>>> for users since it's super easy to install with Extension Manager.
>>>>>
>>>>> XEM is and always been pretty much only a set of pom.xml files with
>>>>> dependencies and not much more than a home page. Guillaume moved
>>>>> Workspaces from XEM to XE making XEM pretty much useless now.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does the new implementation offer support for the Farm usage?
>>>>>
>>>>> You can install Wiki Manager UI using Extension Manager.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there a clear migration path? Manual or automatic?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is the new wiki management UI going to be at least as easy to use as
>>> the
>>>>>> old one? What's the learning curve for administrators?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the build is broken, it's easier to fix it than to upset a large
>>>>>> userbase. Why do we insist so much on maintaining backwards
>>>>>> compatibility for Java APIs that we're almost certain nobody uses, yet
>>>>>> we're OK with dropping an entire product without a proven alternative,
>>>>>> hoping that in one or two more releases that alternative will actually
>>>>>> be fully implemented?
>>>>>
>>>>> The point here is that the alternative is XE. We don't remove XEM
>>>>> because the build is broken... It simply does not worth the effort to
>>>>> keep it anymore since XE expose the same features.
>>>>
>>>> Given that as a downstream user I don't really use multiwikis in any
>>>> way, this doesn't affect me at all. So +1, less code is always better.
>>>> One product less means less confusion for users.
>>>>
>>>> My main complaint was about the backwards compatibility rule that's not
>>>> being followed.
>>>> --
>>>> Sergiu Dumitriu
>>>> http://purl.org/net/sergiu
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> devs mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> devs mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> devs mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
>
>
> --
> Thomas Mortagne
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

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Re: [VOTE] Stop supporting XWiki Manager

Thomas Mortagne
Administrator
Since XE 5.2 has been released I just moved XEM to xwiki-contrib with a README.

On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Vincent Massol <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Sep 19, 2013, at 4:58 PM, Thomas Mortagne <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>> - move the github repo to xwiki-contrib/retired
>>
>> I guess you mean "move the github repo to xwiki-contrib" because
>> merging XEM and retired repository would be a pain (a not even sure it
>> would work fully). I prefer to just move the repo to contrib and
>> indicate it's retired like we did for other modules.
>
> Yes I agree. We'll just need a README.md to let the users know it's not active anymore.
>
> We need to decide on a rule for retired project (not sure we agreed although we discussed it). I also much prefer keeping each extension in its own repo and mention in a README.md about its status.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 4:32 PM, Eduard Moraru <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> +1
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Eduard
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 4:35 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau <
>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Almost everybody has voted so I think this proposal is approved.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2013/9/13 Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]>
>>>>
>>>>> On 09/13/2013 08:51 AM, Thomas Mortagne wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[hidden email]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 09/11/2013 05:58 AM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau wrote:
>>>>>>>> Since Enterprise embeds Workspaces by default since 5.2-m2, I think
>>>> it
>>>>> does
>>>>>>>> not make any sense to release XWiki Manager (XEM) anymore.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The build is currently broken (because of the XAR organization
>>>>> changes).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So I propose to remove XWiki Manager:
>>>>>>>> - stop releasing it
>>>>>>>> - move the github repo to xwiki-contrib/retired
>>>>>>>> - update manager.xwiki.org to explain the changes in XWiki 5.2.
>>>>>>>> - move the manager jira to the retired category
>>>>>>>> - remove the build in ci.xwiki.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here is my non-binding +1.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> LM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -1. This is very premature, the new workspaces haven't been available
>>>>>>> for a long enough time to be sure it is a good replacement for XEM.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do workspaces fulfill all the needs of existing XEM users?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> XEM became a workspaces manager in 3.3 (see
>>>>>> http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XEM-202) so there is nothing new here.
>>>>>> The only difference between the new XE and XEM is that wiki manager UI
>>>>>> is not included while it was hidden in XEM so it's not a big change
>>>>>> for users since it's super easy to install with Extension Manager.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> XEM is and always been pretty much only a set of pom.xml files with
>>>>>> dependencies and not much more than a home page. Guillaume moved
>>>>>> Workspaces from XEM to XE making XEM pretty much useless now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does the new implementation offer support for the Farm usage?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can install Wiki Manager UI using Extension Manager.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there a clear migration path? Manual or automatic?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is the new wiki management UI going to be at least as easy to use as
>>>> the
>>>>>>> old one? What's the learning curve for administrators?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If the build is broken, it's easier to fix it than to upset a large
>>>>>>> userbase. Why do we insist so much on maintaining backwards
>>>>>>> compatibility for Java APIs that we're almost certain nobody uses, yet
>>>>>>> we're OK with dropping an entire product without a proven alternative,
>>>>>>> hoping that in one or two more releases that alternative will actually
>>>>>>> be fully implemented?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The point here is that the alternative is XE. We don't remove XEM
>>>>>> because the build is broken... It simply does not worth the effort to
>>>>>> keep it anymore since XE expose the same features.
>>>>>
>>>>> Given that as a downstream user I don't really use multiwikis in any
>>>>> way, this doesn't affect me at all. So +1, less code is always better.
>>>>> One product less means less confusion for users.
>>>>>
>>>>> My main complaint was about the backwards compatibility rule that's not
>>>>> being followed.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Sergiu Dumitriu
>>>>> http://purl.org/net/sergiu
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> devs mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> devs mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> devs mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Thomas Mortagne
>> _______________________________________________
>> devs mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs



--
Thomas Mortagne
_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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12